EPT[I] Counter to Bisu Build? - Page 2
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
So there's that, what, minute? until the protoss hits 6 corsairs that Jaedong's opening still continues to scout. And that minute is pretty crucial, as he'll know if the protoss goes double stargate or makes a robotics or whatnot. This is information that most other zerg are not able to gather with the standard defensive hydra den opening. The other obvious point of the scourge opening is that it opens the way for Jaedong to jump, by way of his scourge scouting, on a weak air army. If he sees single Stargate and estimates that he can win air superiority, he never hesitates... see the game vs Stork, for instance. Again, the scourge scouting lets him make this decision (that you normally would have had to make blind), and it comes with the bonus that the scourge you've already made also help out with winning back air control. I don't think it's a hard counter to the build, but it's an opening that answers well to the fast corsair PvZ opening, in my opinion... a far stronger overall opening against fast sair than hydra. EDIT: As for counter, I'm not a protoss player, so I can't really say much, but the fact that, I think this is an opening, not so much a *build* the same way there's never going to be a hard counter to the "bisu build," as the "bisu build" is also primarily simply an opening that leads towards a variety of playstyles. I think the question you're asking is very similar to what zerg players usually asked before, and that is, what do you do when someone opens with the bisu build? And the answer was usually to make a fast hydra den, until Jaedong (and arguably Savior a couple months ago) came up with the fast Spire to jump low Sair counts. But for protoss, if you're *already* opening fast sair, I don't think there's anything you can do when the other player responds/decides to go fast Spire. You have, after all, already chosen your opening build order. You could, of course, choose a different opening, and thus make this go cyclical, but I doubt there's really a "stronger" PvZ opening than fast sair anyways. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
No, I guess it means that this build is so flexible that there isn't one definite counter to it. You can adapt the build to all situations, and the Z has to scout to discover a weakness (if there is one). 1 stargate only may be weak to muta/scourge (until archons and storm), but muta/scourge is useless vs. 2 stargates. A mass hydra push is also only guaranteed to work if P didn't scout it and didn't build like 6-10 cannons. You just can't say "do this and it'll work", it depends on what your opponent is doing exactly... | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
Jaedong, losing economically, used drops to buy time, used plague! hydra ling, lurker. bisu also sucked in terms of fighting jaedong head on, badly. he could've easily won after jaedong's first drop failed horribly. | ||
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fight_or_flight
United States3988 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
On February 13 2008 03:14 tKd_ wrote: You guys are all wrong imo. Jaedong was a victim of the bisu build that game, he got the harrass fucked out of him and lost many drones. he did not counter it, he just played really economically and attacked bisu at the perfect times. Jaedong, losing economically, used drops to buy time, used plague! hydra ling, lurker. bisu also sucked in terms of fighting jaedong head on, badly. he could've easily won after jaedong's first drop failed horribly. First, my impression was that we're not specifically pointing at any one game. For a moment, when you said "that game" I thought you were meaning the game against Best, or something. Took me a while to realize you meant the Jaedong vs Bisu game. As for counter, I still think "countering the fast sair opening" is like saying "countering SK terran," the closest you can get is to match opening with opening. If someone goes SK terran against you and you open one hatch muta you'll probably get eaten, because it's just not a particularly solid opening. Does it mean you auto-lose? Not necessarily, but there are "stronger" openings, the strongest of which is, at this moment, 12 hatch 11 pool 3-hatch. But just because you've started the "Savior build" doesn't mean you auto-win either, because the rest of the game matters. Some games the terran will harass you with dropships, other times they'll switch it up and hit you hard anyways. It's the same for the "bisu build." The particular game between Jaedong and Bisu used a high amount of HT drops, which itself is somewhat of a deviation from the Sair/DT opening that was brought up originally in this thread. I mean, beyond the first corsair and then the subsequent branch that a certain player chooses in the game, arguably the rest is simply *that player* and has nothing to do with the "build." Any "counter" to the "build" then is everything leading up to that. You can't seriously tell me each and every 20+ minute "build" used by Bisu, including each and every Nexus and Gateway beyond the first, is Bisu's very own, unique build, because that's hogwash The way I see it, right now there're two ways you can "counter" the FE/Sair opening. Not hard counter, but I mean offset it. If you play 12-11 three-hatch muta against FE/Sair you'll probably get owned. 3-0-like-savior owned. Is it because 12-11 three-hatch muta is bad? Not really, it's probably still quite effective against non FE/Sair protoss builds even now, but against this particular opening it's quite, well, not good. You can either make a fast hydra and stop OL harass into whatever build you decide to do, as was and still is largely the norm. Or you can do what Jaedong's started doing and make a spire into fast scourge. That, to me, is the discussion/idea brought up by the OP. | ||
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ForAdun
Germany986 Posts
July played build orders that might be the counter to the Bisu build. | ||
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
On February 13 2008 00:22 Februarys wrote: @ Bluzman What if P decided to research it right after storm without knowing if Zerg had mass mutas or not. Simply after scouting spire. Its 100/100 just to research it and 200/200 for 2 DT's. It prepares you for vs ultras and as arbiter_md said, it is useful against someone who uses mass overlord drops often. Is it that much costly just to make sure an opponent can't surprise you and prevent harass? 250/200 | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On February 12 2008 19:25 arbiter_md wrote: I think maelstorm is a good idea, but not because it counters muta. There's another reason. In about 80% of pvz, the zerg makes the drop in the middle/late game. Now imagine maelstorm on ovies. Actually I have seen it in some pvz, I just don't remember exactly. Anyway, doing maelstorm when the ovies are in the range of cannons, is priceless. The other thing I was thinking about is the arbiter in pvz. Why nobody's using it? With many bases the zerg has in middle game, it's easy to choose one for recall. Of course you need to take care of scourges, but usually there's no scourges in the mid-game. 1. you need to get your da in the right position at the right time and be able to respond to the drop (assuming one is coming) precisely 2. yes there are (scourges in the mid-game) | ||
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FConnectionUK
United States316 Posts
The day after Best vs Jaedong was played was Bisu vs July. July even successfully tricked Bisu into going one base tech while himself went 3 hatch expansions. The expansions were running and Bisu was forced to follow. July, too, stayed with lair tech to apply pressure. What happened then? July put 5 lings few hydras at all expansions to prevent Bisu's dts. Did it work? Nope. Because Bisu is not Best. Bisu is not Much. Bisu is Bisu. No other protoss can multitask like Bisu can. Bisu's dts are special. Bisu changed all the commentators mind saying lair tech is the counter the very next day. Oh how fickle they are! Lair tech might be a counter for other protoss, but not for this dude. Jaedong just got lucky. Without 2 plagues (hive tech) Jaedong was done for. Damn the defilers | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
On February 13 2008 09:16 FConnectionUK wrote: Yes, the commentators all mentioned late hive tech is the counter for Bisu's pvz by applying much pressure. The day after Best vs Jaedong was played was Bisu vs July. July even successfully tricked Bisu into going one base tech while himself went 3 hatch expansions. The expansions were running and Bisu was forced to follow. July, too, stayed with lair tech to apply pressure. What happened then? July put 5 lings few hydras at all expansions to prevent Bisu's dts. Did it work? Nope. Because Bisu is not Best. Bisu is not Much. Bisu is Bisu. No other protoss can multitask like Bisu can. Bisu's dts are special. Bisu changed all the commentators mind saying lair tech is the counter the very next day. Oh how fickle they are! Lair tech might be a counter for other protoss, but not for this dude. Jaedong just got lucky. Without 2 plagues (hive tech) Jaedong was done for. Damn the defilers This post explains it all. You don't counter the build, you counter the player behind it. In Bisu's case you counter him by outmacroing/microing/timing/strategizing/multitasking him (which has seemed a bit easier as of late). | ||
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gwho
United States632 Posts
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
On February 13 2008 09:33 gwho wrote: can you give us more info about the jaedong vs best game you're talking about? which league? year? set #? the only game he's played against best and won, obviously osl tiebreakers like last week edit: VOD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8608_BeSt_vs_Jaedong/vod i still think that's a stupid question though... | ||
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Februarys
Korea (South)259 Posts
I agree with what you are saying....I think that air superiority is crucial in PvZ. Sair Opening for Protoss is currently the best option P players have. It forces the Zerg to mass hydras and we know that hydras are weak units generally. But when players like Jaedong is able to nullify that air superiority by hydras, fast ovies, scourges scattered around map, and mass mutas (sometimes), it really kills the core of the point. Now about that narrow time you mentioned, before the sairs grow in numbers, a couple of them won't ensure air superiority. They'll have hard time harrassing ovies, and they'll get picked off easily by scourges. But the point I try to argue is, instead of dual stargate-ing and simply increasing the number of sairs (which is very expensive in large numbers), how about spending 100/100 to research mael? It allows a P to have a smaller sair air army while ensuring that the P will still keep his air superiority by denying mass mutalisks. Of course, you won't know if the Zerg is massing mutas or trying to override your air superiority but the cost is so minimal that its worth it IMHO. And I've noticed that JD uses lots of mass drops because he is able to nullify air superiority in these games. Those drops should not go unpunished when Protoss is suppose to have air superiority. | ||
Sigrun
United States1655 Posts
On February 13 2008 09:49 Saracen wrote: the only game he's played against best and won, obviously osl tiebreakers like last week edit: VOD: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/8608_BeSt_vs_Jaedong/vod i still think that's a stupid question though... He also played Best on Demon's forest and lost after an all-in build. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Especially on a map like Katrina, where it's hard to harass efficiently unless you opt for a reaver build. Sair/DT is just too easily defended. | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
1) The analysis is pretty shallow. It's degenerated from marginal to useless and wrong. "Just mass Zeals and Templar" doesn't help anything. 2) The overall question is stupid. The Bisu build isn't a build at all. It's a concept that can branch out in many directions. It's adaptive. There is never going to be a definitive answer (at least in m mind), so acting as if there is isn't helpful. If you were looking for strong counters, I think they were both nailed: Fast Spire or Hydralisk upgrades before Lurkers are the two best. It's like asking what beats Terran 2 Rax -> CC, or Zerg 3 Hatch. There isn't an answer, so coming into a discussion with the mentality that there is doesn't give you room to give much insight. | ||
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