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This is all your fault! Yes YOU! YOU AND YOU AND YOU!
After 9 years we still get raped by koreans. Fuck you all. You bunch of nerds. At least be good at your nerdiness. You all suck at this. Like...whatever...We need to find "the one". The kid to rule them all!! Or build a computer and...and...put it in clothes so it fucks everyone up.
And you koreans. What the fuck is wrong with you? Did you build that shit up? Do you think you're anything worth without the spectators? WE UPLIFTED YOU FROM BEING INTERNET CAFE BUMS TO FUCKING POPSTARS. We bring the ooohhs and aahhs. We pay attention so you get payed by sponsors. And while we're on it. How dare you to spit on all progamers that where here before you that had to life like fucking meat in kebab bread, wondering if their choices of leaving everything behind might really pay off in the end. Where is boxer, let him bitchslap all of them.
Starcraft drama. I love it.
Seriously...don't take me seriously.
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At some point, Koreans hold all the power. Because the Korean community doesn't care about foreigners (due to a combination of racism and generally being dick headed), Korean players can blow off foreign players and tournaments without any repercussions. But if a foreign tournament blows off Korean players, its cut off from being taken seriously ever again.
Some of what Korean players do to blow off foreigners is inevitable and not a big deal. When Midas purposefully lost to stay out of Xellos's bracket a couple WCG's ago, that was a perfectly legal move on his part, if somewhat of a lame one.
This is a bit more complicated. Obviously Hwansin and Calm should never be invited to a foreign event again. At least not the both of them. I think we can also agree that fixing the match completely spits in the face of the tournament and its spectators as well as their fellow players to a degree. In my mind there are two primary questions that still need to be answered:
1. Are Hwansin and Calm penalized prize money for fixing the game?
As much a dick move as this is, I'm not sure this can be penalized. Look at poker, from what I understand it's completely legitimate for players to make a deal with each other to split prize money. It's a shame when this happens, and the tournament has the right to not allow specific players to enter, but in my opinion there should be nothing to stop players from doing this. In part because there's no way to practically police this. It's rare when you see people trying to fix a game doing it in such a careless manner, and it will probably never happen again either now that Hwansin and Calm have been caught. The two of them should be barred from being invited to any more foreign tournaments, but not penalized prize money.
2. What long term actions need to be taken to keep this from happening again?
Like I said, the Koreans have all the power here. There's nothing the foreign community can really do that's effective, fair to all korean and foreign players, and doesn't cut off all Korean participation. Even if Hwansin and Calm are permenantly banned from foreign tournaments, other Korean pro gamers might choose to stay out of foreign tournaments out of solidarity, without losing face in their home country. Foreign tournaments could choose to not invite multiple koreans from the same team, but then what about foreign teams like ToT? While Korean teams have shown a far greater risk of fixing games, it's still not really fair to them.
The only real solution is for Blizzard to take the serious competition scene more seriously, which I think they're gearing up to do with StarCraft 2. Blizzard ultimately holds all the cards and has the legal right to say that Koreans can't even broadcast StarCraft. I'm not saying any sort of affirmative action type thing should be done with foreigners, because then you're just putting players in an environment where they can't win, leading to further embarrassment. But Blizzard has the ability to hold organize tournament structures as well as regulate the licensing for their own game in a manner that makes sure foreigners are given the same opportunity to earn respect as Koreans.
In the end, Korea has a professional scene and the rest of the world does not. This can't be changed, but Koreans don't need to be dicks and racists about it.
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United States33080 Posts
On October 21 2007 22:40 mrdx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote:
So what do you want to do about it?
They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square. Have you ever heard of sportmanship? I'm surprised that a player like you think that way.
oh god, if you only knew how ironic this is
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote:
I will be brutally honest.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROFESSIONALS FOR FUCKS SAKE.
If 20000$ or whatever isnt enough then they can fuck-off.
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Some people have suggested that tournaments don't invite people from the same Korean team. That will not solve this problem, it will only undermine competition. The only way to prevent this type of stuff is for the foreign scene to step up. If Korean progamers actually take these tournaments seriously then they will be less inclinded to rig the games. If its always Korea in the top 3 spots, then they can rig games as long as they want beforehand and no one would find out. We desperately need foreigners that can compete to take top 3 spots away from Korea. Once the skill gap between Korea and foreign countries becomes even, it will indirectly make games more fair and increase good ethics in tournaments.
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8748 Posts
I'm tired of seeing people defend the Koreans by saying that they just don't care. It's true that they just don't care, but their apathy is only relevant when the thing they don't care about is properly assessed. So when people defend the Koreans by saying that they don't care, they like to imply that it's natural and understandable and perhaps even forgivable that they don't care. They are busy youths who already have enough pressure on them.
A better description would be that they are professionals attempting to make a career and that they knew how hard their chosen path was from the start. They also understand basic deals and engagements like an invitation to a foreign event. They understand that they are being invited with the expectation of playing their best. They understand the difference between an exhibition match and a serious event. They understand their mutual relationship with their fans. They understand that they represent more than just themselves: a team, a sponsor, a nation. They understand all of these things and yet they persist in betraying all of the good will placed in them and act on their apathy.
If Koreans can't handle their role as the only professional nation among an international community of amateurs, then they should just admit weakness and apologize. The pathetic clinging to excuses made by Koreans here isn't any legitimate explanation of their actions, but rather just further evidence of the Korean flaw in sportsmanship that has been exhibited by the Korean SC scene for years.
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Not that I condone their actions, but I think most people in this thread are overreacting a tad.
Firstly, look at Hwasin's condition, flying back and forth over the past 3 days while playing non stop, obviously he is going to be tired at the end of it - especially because its a foreigner tournament and they are guarenteed 1st/2nd, how can u blame him for wanting to end the games quickly? Once again i'm not saying his actions correct or even justified...but just put yourself in his shoes for a second, and also consider what Letmelose was saying about how koreans really dont care much for foreigner tournaments.
On top of that, they played games one, two and three legitimately. I watched the games and they were excellent - though Hwasin was clearly tired as he tried to do "all in" plays in an attempt to end the game...ie. game two instead of defending his base from a muta/ling counter, he goes to counter Calm's main. The end result was Calm 2-1 Hwasin. Perhaps Hwasin holds a higher position than Calm, or the coach wanted Hwasin to win the series or maybe they rock paper scissored to decide who would come first and Hwasin won. Either way Calm had to throw the fourth game - that wasn't too bad because the game was interesting (1rax center, supply block choke and rape expo) and the audience got to watch a fifth game. Plus no one wants to see Calm 3-1 Hwasin.
The real problem is why Hwasin and Calm would throw the fifth game - the reasoning behind it is that Hwasin is tired etc...but its still not justifiable. But nonetheless, the games that were allegedly thrown were still entertaining, if somewhat one sided - if we didn't know the last two games were rigged then everyone would be talking about how good the series was.
Basically, put yourself in Hwasins shoes and cut him SOME slack at least. He has his professional career to worry about, obviously wanted to get back to korea asap and was in no state to play the last two games (after giving 3 good performances) - so rigging them in an interesting way was the best course of action in his eyes.
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On October 22 2007 07:54 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2007 07:51 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:
maybe not, but its the day when we stop caring about koreans No, 99.99% of us will continue watching the Korean leagues no matter what kind of ridiculous disrespect the players show to foreigners.
Meh i guess that's true, but i for one won't feel the same watching their games knowing that they behaved like that.
I'm disappointed to say the least =/
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United States33080 Posts
good god, how the fuck can any of you defend the Korean pros 
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On October 22 2007 00:03 NonY[rC] wrote:
For the people saying they could have done it a better way, remember the principle of "good enough". It's simple enough to trade games back and forth by announcing a counterable build via whisper just before the start. If you have a method that is good enough, you don't need a better way. They have no problem doing it the way they allegedly did it except that FPView was being recorded, so it's a weak argument to say that it's unlikely to be true at all just because their method wasn't optimal.
Now assuming that we know they arranged the games, can we not quickly reach a consensus that there's no defending their actions due to the nature of a spectator-driven event?
It's a strike against professional SC, Koreans, STX, Hwasin and Calm. Everyone just get over your fanboyism and deal with it.
On October 22 2007 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
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Just trying to put a different perspective into the thread instead of following blindly with "OMFGOFMGF KORENZ SUKZZZZ"
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On October 22 2007 09:12 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2007 07:54 Jyvblamo wrote:On October 22 2007 07:51 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:
maybe not, but its the day when we stop caring about koreans No, 99.99% of us will continue watching the Korean leagues no matter what kind of ridiculous disrespect the players show to foreigners. Meh i guess that's true, but i for one won't feel the same watching their games knowing that they behaved like that. I'm disappointed to say the least =/
I agree. I've been debating on whether or not to play starcraft nemore. The proscene kept it alive and now I'm disguisted by it. If it were the old days where there was nearly no skill gap between koreans and foreigners I would watch this and we would see a foreigner in the finals and not to mention there wouldn't be thrown games and split prize money. I'm pretty close to quitting SC altogether and focus on the warcraft 3 pro scene. (go to wc3l.com to see it) Koreans and foreigners are even and thats how I like it. Not one mega-nation to rule them all in the game.This is only my opinion and the wc3 scene is actually pretty cool. Not as skilled but not as serious in Korea which means not such hardcore practice thus meaning even and only business.
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First, don't attack all the Korean's, or the Progamers. They are human. Some good, some bad.
I'm willing to move the korean community just to show that the Korean community isn't apathetic.
For internet reasons I can't post the controversy on sgael.je.ro (the biggest starcraft community site) - nor is it the appropriate time - but I have posted it on fighterforum.com and fomos.kr
I truly wish to know what really happened, and if Hwasin did indeed make a deal with his teammate, I will see to it that the Korean community does not ignore it.
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On October 22 2007 09:29 samsammy wrote:
I truly wish to know what really happened, and if Hwasin did indeed make a deal with his teammate, I will see to it that the Korean community does not ignore it.
Are you still doubting the fact that they rigged the games?
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i dont like anyone who supports the rigging.
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Yes, I am STILL doubting. I don't make decisions that fast.
But I do have to say the doubting side is more like 30 (70 --> not doubting side)
Anyways I posted the topic in two sites.
Many people are replying, and I'm the reactions are quite serious.
I'm hoping this just doesn't end as a 'post.'
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we need nal_ra's gmness at this moment!
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On October 22 2007 09:41 samsammy wrote:
Yes, I am STILL doubting. I don't make decisions that fast.
But I do have to say the doubting side is more like 30 (70 --> not doubting side)
Anyways I posted the topic in two sites.
Many people are replying, and I'm the reactions are quite serious.
I'm hoping this just doesn't end as a 'post.'
someone get him video proof so he can post it there
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is awesome32269 Posts
On October 22 2007 08:53 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2007 22:40 mrdx wrote:On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote:
So what do you want to do about it?
They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square. Have you ever heard of sportmanship? I'm surprised that a player like you think that way. oh god, if you only knew how ironic this is
lol
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I've stuck by korean pros for many of their questionable choices but this is ridiculous. This is a SLAP in the face to the foreign SC scene and nothing short of a FULL apology should be acceptable. I can't see how anyone can try justifying this in anyway shape or form. Yeah, they're great players and this tourney isn't as big for them but SO FUCKING WHAT? Why did they choose to go play if they were going to treat it as a joke? There WERE serious players there, it was ran with the intention of broadening starcraft exposure across the world. This is disrespect from their part and as a Hwasin fan, I have to say it's disrespectful to me, the fans. Pros should know to behave better than this. I don't care if you were Boxer and invented SC as we know it.
Even though this quote was a joke, "Where is boxer, let him bitchslap all of them."
Seriously.
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EPT
