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I will be brutally honest.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
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All right.
Let me ask one thing.
Where is the evidence, people?
I do agree that in one way Hwasin and Calm did not take it seriously. The significance of IEST was more of an event to Hwasin, Calm and Sheis.
Thats why in Game one Sheis tried to fast nuke Pheonix (or leilei?) in quarterfinals.
It wasn't a losing strategy, but it was possible and fun.
Ok, in a sense they didn't do their best.
But I don't believe they rigged it. Like "you do this and I'll do that."
It was more like "Let's have fun, trying the best."
Please. Don't try to kill an innocent starcraft player before you even have evidence.
(I mean strong and hard evidence, not shallow ones)
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rigging games that "don't matter" benefits gamblers that don't want to gamble. That's why collegiate and professional athletic sports will ban players if they do it. Even if they're just point shaving (still winning, but by fewer points) they'll be banned.
Its a serious offense.
If BW was the WWF rigged games would be expected and ignorant fans could still enjoy the sport-- what you don't know can't hurt you if all you're doing is watching-- but this is ostensibly a real sport. And sports betting is what this sort of thing effects. Korean officials should be made aware of this and some fairly serious action should be taken.
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maybe not, but its the day when we stop caring about koreans
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United States22883 Posts
Ok, so as we've seen before Korean players half ass it in foreign tournaments for the reasons Letmelose just stated. Still, what happened wasn't about disrespecting the competition. This was a pro vs. pro match up and the only people disrespected were the viewers and sponsors who came to pay/cheer/watch.
If they want to be cocky and play unprepared, then they can deal with the consequences when the upsets do happen (WCG.) This was downright dirty play and I don't think there's any even partially legitimate excuses for BSing a finals match so you can go to sleep sooner.
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On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote:Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Given as how this hasn't been happening lately, I doubt it would be prudent to assume your random foreign opponent is thrash in all cases, since the korean would not know shit about said foreigner. But you're right, it will be sad if this goes uncared for by the korean media and fans.
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote:Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
Nationalist pride ftw. The game is more important to us than a bunch of selfish nerds playing on TV. Many people here have been playing since day 1 in SC life. It's not like everyone will assume korean leagues are fixed anyway. As long as my favorite players don't do this shit, it's all good.
Hell, I have more reason to get excited about pro games now, as I will now watch games wishing savior or some other top pro will assfuck both hwasin and stork as hard as possible for my enjoyment. If you would just know how much I enjoyed saviOr > stork on MSL.
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On October 22 2007 07:51 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:
maybe not, but its the day when we stop caring about koreans
No, 99.99% of us will continue watching the Korean leagues no matter what kind of ridiculous disrespect the players show to foreigners.
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I'm disappointed and disgusted.
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Samsammy, shut up.
Letmelose, thx for posting that. I just wanted to say the same thing. Do you guys remember how the Korean players behaved at Sandlot? They kept breaking the rules even though they had been proven to cheat and punished the first time they did it. It's not like they thought they could get away. They just don't take foreign tournaments serious. At all.
I guess we'd expect more from professional sportsmen but these guys are just kids who haven't experienced much in their lives except for gaming. They don't seem to think much about other topics because they don't have the time nor the need for it. Everytime I've seen a pro gamer being asked on a serious topic in an interview his answer was that of a 12 year old. And I guess so are their morals. It's obvious that they will break the rules of non-Korean tourneys even for the smallest reason because it's just a petty offense. You don't really think about why you walked over that red light on an empty street at 2am either.
Anyway, what I am more concerned about is that this leads directly to the assumption that they might do these things in Korean leagues too, when neccessary. I'm sure there wouldn't be any instance to stop them. If team managers or TV producers asked a player to cheat I would be surprised if he turned them down or even make it public. And under those circumstances, as a manager or producer, who wouldn't consider staging matches? Not only team internal ones.
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And I mean, it's weird. Why would at the last moment of 2:2, would Calm try to lose?
He could win and split the money.
Hwasin could win and split the money. --> The difference, plz? Just to fuck foreign people?
I don't think so.
You do have to know Hwasin was going back and forth to China and Korea for a few days, playing games everyday. He had rarely anytime to sleep. If the playing was bad, it was because of his condition.
that screenshot says nothing.
It pretty much says
Calm : one sunken + drones
Hwasin : oo
Hwasin : Two sunken no rings (zerglings)
We have no idea what they are talking about here. They could be discussing strategy, or whatelse.
+ the legitimacy of that screenshot?
I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent.
But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.'
Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
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On October 22 2007 07:57 samsammy wrote:
I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent.
But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.'
Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
This was done on live TV. I doubt so many people will come here and give a false testimony. You can wait for video evidence though, if you need it to be convinced.
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one way to prevent this shit in the future...
They do this shit again, they dont leave China unharmed. kthx.
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On October 22 2007 07:57 samsammy wrote:
And I mean, it's weird. Why would at the last moment of 2:2, would Calm try to lose?
He could win and split the money.
Hwasin could win and split the money. --> The difference, plz? Just to fuck foreign people?
I don't think so.
You do have to know Hwasin was going back and forth to China and Korea for a few days, playing games everyday. He had rarely anytime to sleep. If the playing was bad, it was because of his condition.
that screenshot says nothing.
It pretty much says
Calm : one sunken + drones
Hwasin : oo
Hwasin : Two sunken no rings (zerglings)
We have no idea what they are talking about here. They could be discussing strategy, or whatelse.
+ the legitimacy of that screenshot?
I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent.
But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.'
Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
ITS IN A FUCKING VIDEO THAT WAS RECORDED LIVE. SHUT THE FUCK UP AND READ.
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Okay, whatever.
I am partially convinced. They might haved rigged the game.
But as far as things go, I'm going to stay quiet.
Don't go bashing people, only later to find out it was a mistake.
Wait for real proof, or something.
Or just bash the Korean progamers.
You might be right... Or wrong. Whatever.
I'm going to try posting this topic on a few Korean sites...
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oh yea since we're talking about this kind of stuff, remember how for sandlot, a team would get screwed really badly if one of its players had someone else play on his account? For example Kosiro[shield] for TL, etc. Well when In_dove played nal_crayon, it was canata playing for dove, they didn't get caught because romad is friends with canata. I guess it's understandable but not really since TL got fucked hard for what Kosiro did. Gj dove for getting away with it I'm glad you got fat and hasn't done shit in progaming.
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you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness.
And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
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I know most progamers are poor fuckers who didn't finish high school but seriously, competitive sports ethics class for every new progamer from now on please. btw is siz)sun quiting school at the age of 13 to play sc for a living? If so someone should give him new parents
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On October 22 2007 08:20 Ilvy wrote:
you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness.
And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
again for the second time that was all wufan's doing and it was to make Pj look better for SKT or whatever he needs looking good for. and what does that have to do with this
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United States22883 Posts
On October 22 2007 08:24 zulu_nation8 wrote:
I know most progamers are poor fuckers who didn't finish high school but seriously, competitive sports ethics class for every new progamer from now on please. btw is siz)sun quiting school at the age of 13 to play sc for a living? If so someone should give him new parents He's gonna have arthritis when he's 25. :/
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On October 22 2007 08:20 Ilvy wrote:
you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness.
And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
The two players were getting a combined 22,500€... It was the final game and they couldnt even give us some decent games from the 2 best players there? Thats bullshit.
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EPT
