it was bo5 ,first three game Hawsin 1:2 im starting watch the forth Game from the first person Hawsin joind the game,then Hawsin got a message from Clam from Stx_clam : center baracket ok me 12 pool? then Hawsin typed and replay : 00 kk i was thinking its all about last game they discussing then i relised its not they are talking about the next game Game 4 on Tau Cross Hawsin scv went to the map center and buit Baracket their all audience and broadcaster didnt know it was arranged,they are very exciting , Clam lost game softly
Game 5
they are talking again , but sorry they were not speaking good english or just maybe some words i cant understand but i clear saw message from Clam : me 1 sunken all drone
Final game Hawsin 3BB marine and medic, all Clam Have is 1 Sunken as he said before the game
we are all fooled by those korean Pro Gamers
and I have to belive the Rumor about the OSL and Msl some arranged game maybe ture.
You "have to" believe, then you believe. That's all. Stating what you saw makes sense, but your personal thought doesn't. They fooled IEST in case that two finalists were from the same team and they had already insured the US$32,000 champion and runner-up award, so progaming fooled all? IEST is not progaming.
On October 21 2007 22:29 MYM.Testie wrote: Stop over analyzing. They did what they wanted to do, because they got that far by beating everyone legitly and badly. The end.
audience paid the ticket ,they have to respect them to show their ability and not like this
If they come from the same team and this is something that happens often, why can't they just talk about it before the match? Using lobby chat to talk about that is way too risky to make any sense IMO.
if they did fix the match, then its a real shame, instead of giving the audience something to enjoy, they gave them rigged games. that screenshot looks pretty incriminating btw.
On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote: So what do you want to do about it? They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square.
Have you ever heard of sportmanship? I'm surprised that a player like you think that way.
US$32,000 is a huge sum of korean won (or whatever the currency is though) and i can understand how they'd be tempted by the prospect of split winnings instead of a potentially smaller sum.
On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote: So what do you want to do about it? They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square.
as a organizer of such a tournament i wouldnt even invite kor players from the same teams, if possible players with rivalry so the players really fight for the win. its always the same.. i didnt like the yellow vs reach series either cuz they always seemed arranged to me, same for iris vs savior etc. so many games are arranged in the pro scene
On October 21 2007 22:58 Kassios wrote: wo how can people accept what they did ? It really really sux imo, couldnt they both played fair games and then split the money if they wanted to?
they dont want the public to get the impression one of the players is noob so they always play close series
no, i just can´t believe it. If they arranged the play they just arrange it BEFORE the match its going on, that dont seem very professional to me and i think that its just a rumor, say that the korean league or an international SC tourney its arranged its a HUGE acusation and need STRONG EVIDENCE, that image its cut in the middle a VOD or a COMPLETE IMAGE its needed for support your words, until the proof show other thing im think that the players ARE NOT GUILTY.
On October 21 2007 22:58 Kassios wrote: wo how can people accept what they did ? It really really sux imo, couldnt they both played fair games and then split the money if they wanted to?
they dont want the public to get the impression one of the players is noob so they always play close series
oh yeah.. and what will the public think when people will be aware of this? seriously they've got fans who cheered for them and they tricked everyone I'm really disapointing with this since I liked Hwasin ..Now for me he's only a cheater But maybe it's korean way of think that I dont understand
On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote: So what do you want to do about it? They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square.
I think you're losing perspective. Tournaments like IEST are about giving the fans something to watch. It's a spectator sport. IEST brings in Koreans because they know Koreans are skilled and IEST wants their viewers to watch high-caliber games. Perhaps there is no agreement or contract that players have to sign that would disqualify them, but their actions betray the entire point of the event. Fans want to know who the champion is, not who are the co-champions.
On October 21 2007 23:13 sztuczyn wrote: Strange that they are using english...
maybe bc the korean language wasnt installed in the cpu ? I dunno...
Come on... They could have easily talked about it before. They play on the same team, they know their play so they could let each other win without needing to whisper.
On October 21 2007 23:24 Caller wrote: For all we know, that picture could have been cleverly arranged/photoshopped. Do you have a picture of the entire pre-loading screen?
If you watch the fpvod of Hwasin, you'll see him scrolling up the message box for like a milisecond and you'll see the whispers. So it's definitely not photoshopped like some of you mentioned.
I can't believe you guys are buying this story. -_- When it comes to Korean vs Korean, they go against with all their might. Even in their interviews, Hwasin and Calm said they would do their best. I mean... -_- You can believe that they rigged the game, but
First of all, if they wanted to split the prize money, like some one said above, they could. They fight fair and square, and some one wins --> splits money. I see no reason for them to -_-............... uh rig.
That english Calm wrote down says nothing. Is they really did plan something out, Why wouldn't they just plan it earlier, besides doing it right before the game? So that somebody else can take a picture? IIt makes nonsense.
For the people saying they could have done it a better way, remember the principle of "good enough". It's simple enough to trade games back and forth by announcing a counterable build via whisper just before the start. If you have a method that is good enough, you don't need a better way. They have no problem doing it the way they allegedly did it except that FPView was being recorded, so it's a weak argument to say that it's unlikely to be true at all just because their method wasn't optimal.
Now assuming that we know they arranged the games, can we not quickly reach a consensus that there's no defending their actions due to the nature of a spectator-driven event?
It's a strike against professional SC, Koreans, STX, Hwasin and Calm. Everyone just get over your fanboyism and deal with it.
On October 22 2007 00:03 NonY[rC] wrote: For the people saying they could have done it a better way, remember the principle of "good enough". It's simple enough to trade games back and forth by announcing a counterable build via whisper just before the start. If you have a method that is good enough, you don't need a better way. They have no problem doing it the way they allegedly did it except that FPView was being recorded, so it's a weak argument to say that it's unlikely to be true at all just because their method wasn't optimal.
Now assuming that we know they arranged the games, can we not quickly reach a consensus that there's no defending their actions due to the nature of a spectator-driven event?
It's a strike against professional SC, Koreans, STX, Hwasin and Calm. Everyone just get over your fanboyism and deal with it.
Agreed...and didn't Hwasin have a certain match later on as well? I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted an easy fix just so he could prepare for his match back in Korea.
So what can IEST do? NOT invite them again, make it publicly known(public statement) that such shit will not go on in their tournaments so that they don't lose credibility (as a lot of things in China do...). So they CAN do something about it =)
Also the screen shot should been expanded to better validate this accusation. Until then my arguments are only hypothetical =(
I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
The thing that bothers me, is: why do it? Why let hwasin win? Why not calm? If they are going to split the prize, it doesn't matter who wins, so why go through the trouble of setting it up in the first place?
On October 21 2007 23:55 samsammy wrote: I can't believe you guys are buying this story. -_- When it comes to Korean vs Korean, they go against with all their might. Even in their interviews, Hwasin and Calm said they would do their best. I mean... -_- You can believe that they rigged the game, but
First of all, if they wanted to split the prize money, like some one said above, they could. They fight fair and square, and some one wins --> splits money. I see no reason for them to -_-............... uh rig.
That english Calm wrote down says nothing. Is they really did plan something out, Why wouldn't they just plan it earlier, besides doing it right before the game? So that somebody else can take a picture? IIt makes nonsense.
yea i guess korean progamers are higher beings who have a high sense of honor, and would never commit an action such as this. How can you guys think this?
I completely agree with Testie. Sure its a little unsportsman like but thats the extent of it. They both earned the 1 and 2 spot. If they decide that they want to split the prize by playing a "setup game" then there is nothing in rules to stop them. It's their choice and completely legal. Sure the games may not be as entertaining for the fans but thats the way it goes. If I was good friends with an opponent. And we placed 1 and 2 in a tourniment and it was for a lot of money. I would do the exact same thing, hands down. Would you rather have a guranteed 16k or a 50% chance at 32k? Any smart gambler would take the guranteed 16k unless he was already rich That being said, it doesnt really make sense why they wouldn't just play it out normally and split the money either way. So I don't know why they would rig the games.
On October 22 2007 00:54 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I completely agree with Testie. Sure its a little unsportsman like but thats the extent of it. They both earned the 1 and 2 spot. If they decide that they want to split the prize by playing a "setup game" then there is nothing in rules to stop them. It's their choice and completely legal. Sure the games may not be as entertaining for the fans but thats the way it goes. If I was good friends with an opponent. And we placed 1 and 2 in a tourniment and it was for a lot of money. I would do the exact same thing, hands down. Would you rather have a guranteed 16k or a 50% chance at 32k? Any smart gambler would take the guranteed 16k unless he was already rich
That's completely ignoring the fact that their were spectators and supporters watching them play, and them doing this downgrades the level of importance that this tournament meant to ANYBODY. Sure there are no rules against it, but it trivializes the purpose of this tournaments and such tournaments to come in China and anywhere else that might invite Koreans to participate. Sure, we know Koreans do it in WCG to throw matches to reach the finals, and to an extent it's kind of sad that we've almost accepted this outcome.(for any hockey fans, it reminds me of NJ not playing Brodeur last season vs NYI...but that's a diff story) Of course those aren't the FINALS of a tournament, regardless of how much they own other fucking people, they owe it to the organizers and the fans to play their best.
Also, if these allegations do turn out to be true, it is also partly the fault of the organizers for their shortsightedness in inviting two players from the same team, unless that's all they could get =(
On October 22 2007 00:54 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I completely agree with Testie. Sure its a little unsportsman like but thats the extent of it. They both earned the 1 and 2 spot. If they decide that they want to split the prize by playing a "setup game" then there is nothing in rules to stop them. It's their choice and completely legal. Sure the games may not be as entertaining for the fans but thats the way it goes. If I was good friends with an opponent. And we placed 1 and 2 in a tourniment and it was for a lot of money. I would do the exact same thing, hands down. Would you rather have a guranteed 16k or a 50% chance at 32k? Any smart gambler would take the guranteed 16k unless he was already rich That being said, it doesnt really make sense why they wouldn't just play it out normally and split the money either way. So I don't know why they would rig the games.
I love how at the end of your post you realize the entire crux of your post is retarded and wrong. Also if you think every bw game is 50/50.. you should probably play more. Both players are professionals and both probably feel they can beat one another.
Splitting the money wasnt wrong. Throwing the games was. You even realize this at the end of your post and you admit to it being wrong at the beginning.
Rigging the final makes the whole tournament an illegitimate means of deducing the best player entered on that particular day, making the whole tournament a joke. Clearly the STX players had no respect for the event or the other players. In other words, rigging the final is pissing in testie's face.
On October 22 2007 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
On October 22 2007 01:21 kayZer wrote: huh, Then why was Calm so sad when he lost the last game? :S
Because of world starvation and the sad conclusion of the TV show "FireFly" on the SCIFI channel... I dont f ucking know. But if you think a TT face is going to disprove the chat log / game results and somehow credit the koreans with a real hard fought final series you have a LOT of work ahead of you sir. Selling that book would be like sexually raping a brick wall.
Interesting. I didn't know that Calm was in STX too (in fact I know nothing about him at all ). Makes sense, then... but it's like a big "fuck you" to all spectators of the game who just want to see a good game instead of the two toying around. It's also especially arrogant in front of all the foreigners who tried hard but didn't make it.
On October 21 2007 23:55 samsammy wrote: I can't believe you guys are buying this story. -_- When it comes to Korean vs Korean, they go against with all their might. Even in their interviews, Hwasin and Calm said they would do their best. I mean... -_- You can believe that they rigged the game, but
First of all, if they wanted to split the prize money, like some one said above, they could. They fight fair and square, and some one wins --> splits money. I see no reason for them to -_-............... uh rig.
That english Calm wrote down says nothing. Is they really did plan something out, Why wouldn't they just plan it earlier, besides doing it right before the game? So that somebody else can take a picture? IIt makes nonsense.
On October 22 2007 01:21 kayZer wrote: huh, Then why was Calm so sad when he lost the last game? :S
Because of world starvation and the sad conclusion of the TV show "FireFly" on the SCIFI channel... I dont f ucking know. But if you think a TT face is going to disprove the chat log / game results and somehow credit the koreans with a real hard fought final series you have a LOT of work ahead of you sir. Selling that book would be like sexually raping a brick wall.
No, hell, i saw how Hwasin / Calm writted something but it didnt appear (in observer mode), but i mean, well that "sad" face and the end, and the coach consolating him was necessary?.
Well, my opinion is that even if they agree'd to split the money is ok, as you said the only thing that it really matter for me, is that they throwed the matches : (. Sorry for my bad english~
Testie has no problems with the finals of a tournament being a cop-out because he thinks the players have no obligation to the fans, the people putting on the tourney, the game of BW, or just the sake of good honest competition.
I don't know why anyone is surprised. TANL finals against Ret anyone?
they are"player" they have to play their role well before the TV Casting,
its very interesting if you see the interview of Hawsin , He said, im tired and i know if the game goes long,i will lose, so i decided to Rush,and fortunely its worked lol . I want to know how hawsin will defend him after someone showing him the Dialog of Sc Chat Room
Its not about money, its just like if you have a very good Card on you Hand,you know you will win for sure,you just want to play to enjoy
this is retarded. i really don't want to believe they did this but it seems like they did.
there's no benefit to not playing out a 5 game series, they could've just agreed to split the money but still played their best just to give the crowd what they paid for. there really is no reason not to just play it out, wtf? the koreans don't gain anything, all that happens is the crowd is screwed out of a real match and the koreans get to go home like 20 minutes earlier. is that really worth risking their reputation and never getting invited again?
On October 22 2007 01:50 Hot_Bid wrote: this is retarded. i really don't want to believe they did this but it seems like they did.
there's no benefit to not playing out a 5 game series, they could've just agreed to split the money but still played their best just to give the crowd what they paid for. there really is no reason not to just play it out, wtf? the koreans don't gain anything, all that happens is the crowd is screwed out of a real match and the koreans get to go home like 20 minutes earlier. is that really worth risking their reputation and never getting invited again?
If you watched the show match between Hawsin vs Jaystar you will get the point.
Jaystar one Dragoon block the Entrance, Hawsin Scv came late and thats no chance to get in
and he used the Scv Mineral Bug acrossing the Goon and get into Jaystar's base,he find its fast DT, he said after that match,"i know its not allowed in korea Pro Match,but i know its show match i just want to show this skill to the audience, lol " does anyone here dont know this bug? the reason for him to come china to show us how to use Bug?
reasons why they might have done this (not that i'm defending them): - avoiding releasing real 1st FPVODs and replays - avoiding one person getting embarassed 3-0 - just for kicks, to some people it'd probably be pretty funny arranging televised games with a good friend - for practice -- testing out their responses to various builds - to avoid having conflict (truly playing for money) between friends - getting the games over with quickly
and it looks like Calm also said: "2 sunken no ring", which probably means 2 sunkens and no zerglings.
As Nony said, it's a weak argument to say that they wouldn't do this "because they had no reason to" or "they could've done it before the match."
If the screenshots, VODs, replays, spectators, and what happened in the games confirm it, it happened, regardless of what Hwasin and Calm say in the interviews afterward. Like they really are going to be like "oh yeah we fixed the matches."
If this happened, I'm going to have to agree with people saying this is horrible behavior, and disagree with whoever is like "oh they made it to the finals they are allowed to fix games because they beat everyone." Progaming is not pro-wrestling, the matches are not rigged. If Calm decides to just stop trying and 5 hatchery before pool and dies to MM rush, that's fine... but fixing it before the match insults the tournament, spectators, and other players.
disqualify em both, pay regulation games(i guess?). thats how it would be done in any other sport, and by letting them walk away, we just prove starcraft audience isn't mature enough(as an audience) to do anything but awe at the koreans.
It's not even remotely surprising, the Koreans have already shown their complete disregard for fair play at the past few WCGs, and yet they never get called out on it.
In my opinion, TL should try to get this news through to one of the big Korean fan sites like Fifo, where at least it'll stir up more controversy than here.
In the case that it's true, this is idiotic. I think that both should be disqualified. It's an insult to the other participants, to the spectators, and to the organizers.
Yeah, anybody fluent in Korean here needs to contact someone at FiFo or other known korean site and explain what has happened, this just can't go unnoticed..
I lost all my respect for the whole STX team right now ;;
yea this is really gay. this is such an insult to the fans, tournament sponsors, and anyone involved with running this, all of whom are the very reason these guys are able to play sc professionally.
testie and the others, i dont know how you cant see that the players do have some obligation to the fans/people running this. these are the people who give you the opportunity to still play this game at such a big scale. you sure as hell do owe them something.
On October 22 2007 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
qft
Also if they are going to do that sort of shit, which is wrong in my opinion, getting caught is even worse, it is sloppy on multiple levels because they make public the lack of respect they had for the tournament they were invited too, not smart at all..
oh well this is what you get when you invite players who are 10folds superior then any of the other players in this tourney, they think they can do whatever they want(as we saw with stork in wcg), a simple solution is that you dont invite any more korean progamers to events like this but then who would pay attention to these events? the only reason we like watching this is to see if any "foreigners" can do some damage vs korean progamers, and by past experience we saw that they couldnt do anything vs them, so until you invite progamer you should expect situations like this occuring over and over again because they think they can control "foreign tournaments" with their skill level
omg -_-. There is no evidence at all, and I can't believe some people are already believing that Calm and Hwasin fuxked up.
First, the screenshot. Hwasin did not replay. Calm did not say barracks or anything, he was discussing about 1 sunken + drones vs 2sunken + no drones/lings.
There is no evidence of you center barrack gogo okay? (no screenshot) - Hwasin does not replay.
Second. Koreans are very well aware that people are viewing their first person view. It happens all the time in MBC and OSL.
Third, No reason to fight. Hwasin Vs Calm in team battle is 5:5 ratio win. Why would cal decide to lose in the last moment, in 2 vs 2 ?
Besides the prize money, there is also the honor of being able to run in the Beijing olympics (if you guys didn't know, now you do) Currently Warcraft 'Moon' is foreign player #1, so I think he's going to run...
Fourth. Hwasin, Calm, Sheis are all from the same team. If they were all in it, why the hell did Hwasin play Sheis so loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong.
No evidence, no whatsoever. No fuxxin Korean would lose just because they are on the same team.
Savior Vs Iris - Savior lose on purpose? No. etc, etc. When it comes to Korean vs Korean, they give it their 100%
And I'll just give you a translation of Hwasin's interview after winning. After you guys read this and believe Hwasin cheated, you guys are retarded. Seriously. This was a stupid controversy.
Interview (Translated - forgive awkwardness in grammar)
- You have won in the IEST 2007 >> I think I played over 30 games over 3 days. It's the first time I've played so much during such a short period of time. It is harder than I though. I am sad that I dropped out of MSL, but I am happy that I won in the IEST.
- How was your match against Calm >> I though I could lose because my condition was terrible after I arrived at China. While playing I realized I couldn't win if the game went longer. Calm was a lot better than me in other stuff, but I was won because I had more competition experience and mentality.
- How is your condition >> I am tired. After losing yesterday I couldn't sleep and didn't eat, so before I came to China I only got three hours of sleep. I ate my first food in China. It got worse afternoon.
... I'm going to stop here, because the rest is irrelevant.
---------------------------- This is the interview with Calm Before the matchup.
- You have made it to the finals > the word "finals" feels good. I feel happy because I was able to go up here with no losses.
- You are up against your teammate Hwasin. > I wan't to play without stress over who wins. I want to have fun.
- Do you have any 'greed' for the prize money? > I don't know, really. I guess I really want to win, though.
- It is your first time to attend an international competition > It is fun fighting against foreigners. It was fun having matches with players all around the world.
etc
- If you predict the finals > It wont be easy, but I think I can win 3-2. Our winning ratio is similar (hwasin vs Calm = 5:5 in practice games).... I will not be mad at the results
On October 22 2007 04:59 samsammy wrote: And I'll just give you a translation of Hwasin's interview after winning. After you guys read this and believe Hwasin cheated, you guys are retarded. Seriously.
Man, I read that interwiev with an open mind expecting to find some good explanation to all of this and all that is says is that hwasin is happy he won, wtf? That interview didn't provide any proof at all, and if you can't see that, you are the one who is retarded. Seriously.
On October 22 2007 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
On October 22 2007 00:54 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I completely agree with Testie. Sure its a little unsportsman like but thats the extent of it. They both earned the 1 and 2 spot. If they decide that they want to split the prize by playing a "setup game" then there is nothing in rules to stop them. It's their choice and completely legal. Sure the games may not be as entertaining for the fans but thats the way it goes. If I was good friends with an opponent. And we placed 1 and 2 in a tourniment and it was for a lot of money. I would do the exact same thing, hands down. Would you rather have a guranteed 16k or a 50% chance at 32k? Any smart gambler would take the guranteed 16k unless he was already rich That being said, it doesnt really make sense why they wouldn't just play it out normally and split the money either way. So I don't know why they would rig the games.
fuck "completely legal" It is their duty, their responsibility to compete and play to the best of there abilities. So what is E-sports now? Pro Wrestling entertainment? Set up matches and made up drama? If I want to start watching fake shit I will turn on WWE.
Umm... this shit better gets reported to Fifo or something because if things like this is actually allowed and not put a stop to IMMEDIATELY, it can ruin Starcraft esports as we know it. Imagine watching a match thinking it's going to be just fixed. Takes all the excitement out of it.
Jesus christ people. If anyone is buying the fucking interview crap they are in dire need of suicide. OF COURSE they dont come out and say "Yeah those last games, they were fixed. We just want to get out of your stinky country and back to korea where dressing like we do doesnt mean you are gay!"
Hwasin and Calm can go fuck themselves. This situation alone does not upset me that much. But its the multiple times when koreans view the rest of the world in SC as idiotic garbage not worth the time. Even if you fucking believe that, you at least create the illusion you care/give a fuck about other people. Otherwise you come off like a pompous prick who needs a good beat down(reality check). Give them their money. Send them home. But in future IEST's, either DONT invite koreans or invite hungry professionals of the lower class who still have yet to be corrupted. I want a real tourney with huge upsets and epic battles.. not a fucking charade with egotistical game fixers.
On October 22 2007 04:14 kamehameha wrote: oh well this is what you get when you invite players who are 10folds superior then any of the other players in this tourney, they think they can do whatever they want(as we saw with stork in wcg), a simple solution is that you dont invite any more korean progamers to events like this but then who would pay attention to these events? the only reason we like watching this is to see if any "foreigners" can do some damage vs korean progamers, and by past experience we saw that they couldnt do anything vs them, so until you invite progamer you should expect situations like this occuring over and over again because they think they can control "foreign tournaments" with their skill level
pgl has no progamers , and there loved by all, probably more than iest
On October 22 2007 05:42 KissBlade wrote: Umm... this shit better gets reported to Fifo or something because if things like this is actually allowed and not put a stop to IMMEDIATELY, it can ruin Starcraft esports as we know it. Imagine watching a match thinking it's going to be just fixed. Takes all the excitement out of it.
foreign tournaments with top pros have always been like this
Heh, I'm gonna say that I feel bad for Calm and Hwasin since if it was fixed.. it was conducted by their team coaches/leaders. Poor kids are just pawns for their company.
On October 22 2007 06:14 {88}iNcontroL wrote: no they havent.
Blizzcon, Blizzard invitation or w/e and various others have all gone down without a hitch.
didnt say it happens at every single one, but his post made it sound as if this was something revolutionary. its been happening since at least wcg 05 with midas vs a2, and probably before.
On October 22 2007 05:42 KissBlade wrote: Umm... this shit better gets reported to Fifo or something because if things like this is actually allowed and not put a stop to IMMEDIATELY, it can ruin Starcraft esports as we know it. Imagine watching a match thinking it's going to be just fixed. Takes all the excitement out of it.
foreign tournaments with top pros have always been like this
"have always been like this" = 100%
You make no suggestion for me to think you only mean partially or sometimes. You were wrong I was right
On October 22 2007 06:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote: samsammy is fucking stupid.
Jesus christ people. If anyone is buying the fucking interview crap they are in dire need of suicide. OF COURSE they dont come out and say "Yeah those last games, they were fixed. We just want to get out of your stinky country and back to korea where dressing like we do doesnt mean you are gay!"
Hwasin and Calm can go fuck themselves. This situation alone does not upset me that much. But its the multiple times when koreans view the rest of the world in SC as idiotic garbage not worth the time. Even if you fucking believe that, you at least create the illusion you care/give a fuck about other people. Otherwise you come off like a pompous prick who needs a good beat down(reality check). Give them their money. Send them home. But in future IEST's, either DONT invite koreans or invite hungry professionals of the lower class who still have yet to be corrupted. I want a real tourney with huge upsets and epic battles.. not a fucking charade with egotistical game fixers.
On October 22 2007 04:59 samsammy wrote: And I'll just give you a translation of Hwasin's interview after winning. After you guys read this and believe Hwasin cheated, you guys are retarded. Seriously. This was a stupid controversy.
Interview (Translated - forgive awkwardness in grammar)
- You have won in the IEST 2007 >> I think I played over 30 games over 3 days. It's the first time I've played so much during such a short period of time. It is harder than I though. I am sad that I dropped out of MSL, but I am happy that I won in the IEST.
- How was your match against Calm >> I though I could lose because my condition was terrible after I arrived at China. While playing I realized I couldn't win if the game went longer. Calm was a lot better than me in other stuff, but I was won because I had more competition experience and mentality.
- How is your condition >> I am tired. After losing yesterday I couldn't sleep and didn't eat, so before I came to China I only got three hours of sleep. I ate my first food in China. It got worse afternoon.
... I'm going to stop here, because the rest is irrelevant.
---------------------------- This is the interview with Calm Before the matchup.
- You have made it to the finals > the word "finals" feels good. I feel happy because I was able to go up here with no losses.
- You are up against your teammate Hwasin. > I wan't to play without stress over who wins. I want to have fun.
- Do you have any 'greed' for the prize money? > I don't know, really. I guess I really want to win, though.
- It is your first time to attend an international competition > It is fun fighting against foreigners. It was fun having matches with players all around the world.
etc
- If you predict the finals > It wont be easy, but I think I can win 3-2. Our winning ratio is similar (hwasin vs Calm = 5:5 in practice games).... I will not be mad at the results
Well, thanks for the translation, but that seriously clears up nothing.
Fucking fixed matches. I'm so disillusioned right now.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
Let me ask one thing. Where is the evidence, people?
I do agree that in one way Hwasin and Calm did not take it seriously. The significance of IEST was more of an event to Hwasin, Calm and Sheis.
Thats why in Game one Sheis tried to fast nuke Pheonix (or leilei?) in quarterfinals. It wasn't a losing strategy, but it was possible and fun. Ok, in a sense they didn't do their best. But I don't believe they rigged it. Like "you do this and I'll do that." It was more like "Let's have fun, trying the best."
Please. Don't try to kill an innocent starcraft player before you even have evidence. (I mean strong and hard evidence, not shallow ones)
rigging games that "don't matter" benefits gamblers that don't want to gamble. That's why collegiate and professional athletic sports will ban players if they do it. Even if they're just point shaving (still winning, but by fewer points) they'll be banned.
Its a serious offense.
If BW was the WWF rigged games would be expected and ignorant fans could still enjoy the sport-- what you don't know can't hurt you if all you're doing is watching-- but this is ostensibly a real sport. And sports betting is what this sort of thing effects. Korean officials should be made aware of this and some fairly serious action should be taken.
Ok, so as we've seen before Korean players half ass it in foreign tournaments for the reasons Letmelose just stated. Still, what happened wasn't about disrespecting the competition. This was a pro vs. pro match up and the only people disrespected were the viewers and sponsors who came to pay/cheer/watch.
If they want to be cocky and play unprepared, then they can deal with the consequences when the upsets do happen (WCG.) This was downright dirty play and I don't think there's any even partially legitimate excuses for BSing a finals match so you can go to sleep sooner.
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote:Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Given as how this hasn't been happening lately, I doubt it would be prudent to assume your random foreign opponent is thrash in all cases, since the korean would not know shit about said foreigner. But you're right, it will be sad if this goes uncared for by the korean media and fans.
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote:Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
Nationalist pride ftw. The game is more important to us than a bunch of selfish nerds playing on TV. Many people here have been playing since day 1 in SC life. It's not like everyone will assume korean leagues are fixed anyway. As long as my favorite players don't do this shit, it's all good. Hell, I have more reason to get excited about pro games now, as I will now watch games wishing savior or some other top pro will assfuck both hwasin and stork as hard as possible for my enjoyment. If you would just know how much I enjoyed saviOr > stork on MSL.
Letmelose, thx for posting that. I just wanted to say the same thing. Do you guys remember how the Korean players behaved at Sandlot? They kept breaking the rules even though they had been proven to cheat and punished the first time they did it. It's not like they thought they could get away. They just don't take foreign tournaments serious. At all.
I guess we'd expect more from professional sportsmen but these guys are just kids who haven't experienced much in their lives except for gaming. They don't seem to think much about other topics because they don't have the time nor the need for it. Everytime I've seen a pro gamer being asked on a serious topic in an interview his answer was that of a 12 year old. And I guess so are their morals. It's obvious that they will break the rules of non-Korean tourneys even for the smallest reason because it's just a petty offense. You don't really think about why you walked over that red light on an empty street at 2am either.
Anyway, what I am more concerned about is that this leads directly to the assumption that they might do these things in Korean leagues too, when neccessary. I'm sure there wouldn't be any instance to stop them. If team managers or TV producers asked a player to cheat I would be surprised if he turned them down or even make it public. And under those circumstances, as a manager or producer, who wouldn't consider staging matches? Not only team internal ones.
And I mean, it's weird. Why would at the last moment of 2:2, would Calm try to lose? He could win and split the money. Hwasin could win and split the money. --> The difference, plz? Just to fuck foreign people? I don't think so.
You do have to know Hwasin was going back and forth to China and Korea for a few days, playing games everyday. He had rarely anytime to sleep. If the playing was bad, it was because of his condition.
that screenshot says nothing. It pretty much says Calm : one sunken + drones Hwasin : oo Hwasin : Two sunken no rings (zerglings)
We have no idea what they are talking about here. They could be discussing strategy, or whatelse.
+ the legitimacy of that screenshot?
I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent. But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.' Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
On October 22 2007 07:57 samsammy wrote: I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent. But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.' Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
This was done on live TV. I doubt so many people will come here and give a false testimony. You can wait for video evidence though, if you need it to be convinced.
On October 22 2007 07:57 samsammy wrote: And I mean, it's weird. Why would at the last moment of 2:2, would Calm try to lose? He could win and split the money. Hwasin could win and split the money. --> The difference, plz? Just to fuck foreign people? I don't think so.
You do have to know Hwasin was going back and forth to China and Korea for a few days, playing games everyday. He had rarely anytime to sleep. If the playing was bad, it was because of his condition.
that screenshot says nothing. It pretty much says Calm : one sunken + drones Hwasin : oo Hwasin : Two sunken no rings (zerglings)
We have no idea what they are talking about here. They could be discussing strategy, or whatelse.
+ the legitimacy of that screenshot?
I'm not saying Hwasin and Calm are totally innocent. But it is 'innocent before proven guilty.' Don't bash STX progamers because of little evidence (or none.)
ITS IN A FUCKING VIDEO THAT WAS RECORDED LIVE. SHUT THE FUCK UP AND READ.
I am partially convinced. They might haved rigged the game. But as far as things go, I'm going to stay quiet. Don't go bashing people, only later to find out it was a mistake. Wait for real proof, or something.
Or just bash the Korean progamers. You might be right... Or wrong. Whatever. I'm going to try posting this topic on a few Korean sites...
oh yea since we're talking about this kind of stuff, remember how for sandlot, a team would get screwed really badly if one of its players had someone else play on his account? For example Kosiro[shield] for TL, etc. Well when In_dove played nal_crayon, it was canata playing for dove, they didn't get caught because romad is friends with canata. I guess it's understandable but not really since TL got fucked hard for what Kosiro did. Gj dove for getting away with it I'm glad you got fat and hasn't done shit in progaming.
you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness. And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
I know most progamers are poor fuckers who didn't finish high school but seriously, competitive sports ethics class for every new progamer from now on please. btw is siz)sun quiting school at the age of 13 to play sc for a living? If so someone should give him new parents
On October 22 2007 08:20 Ilvy wrote: you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness. And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
again for the second time that was all wufan's doing and it was to make Pj look better for SKT or whatever he needs looking good for. and what does that have to do with this
On October 22 2007 08:24 zulu_nation8 wrote: I know most progamers are poor fuckers who didn't finish high school but seriously, competitive sports ethics class for every new progamer from now on please. btw is siz)sun quiting school at the age of 13 to play sc for a living? If so someone should give him new parents
On October 22 2007 08:20 Ilvy wrote: you guys are really funny, this guys do what they get told of their manager, they do not make things up by themself, sometimes for promotion, sometimes to "fix" the draw or save time, the last thing they care is to give the community nice replays ^^, its all buisness. And by the end chinese orga did that before too for promoting purpose if you remember in WCG and Pj case when he went to korea.
The two players were getting a combined 22,500€... It was the final game and they couldnt even give us some decent games from the 2 best players there? Thats bullshit.
This is all your fault! Yes YOU! YOU AND YOU AND YOU! After 9 years we still get raped by koreans. Fuck you all. You bunch of nerds. At least be good at your nerdiness. You all suck at this. Like...whatever...We need to find "the one". The kid to rule them all!! Or build a computer and...and...put it in clothes so it fucks everyone up.
And you koreans. What the fuck is wrong with you? Did you build that shit up? Do you think you're anything worth without the spectators? WE UPLIFTED YOU FROM BEING INTERNET CAFE BUMS TO FUCKING POPSTARS. We bring the ooohhs and aahhs. We pay attention so you get payed by sponsors. And while we're on it. How dare you to spit on all progamers that where here before you that had to life like fucking meat in kebab bread, wondering if their choices of leaving everything behind might really pay off in the end. Where is boxer, let him bitchslap all of them.
Starcraft drama. I love it. Seriously...don't take me seriously.
At some point, Koreans hold all the power. Because the Korean community doesn't care about foreigners (due to a combination of racism and generally being dick headed), Korean players can blow off foreign players and tournaments without any repercussions. But if a foreign tournament blows off Korean players, its cut off from being taken seriously ever again.
Some of what Korean players do to blow off foreigners is inevitable and not a big deal. When Midas purposefully lost to stay out of Xellos's bracket a couple WCG's ago, that was a perfectly legal move on his part, if somewhat of a lame one.
This is a bit more complicated. Obviously Hwansin and Calm should never be invited to a foreign event again. At least not the both of them. I think we can also agree that fixing the match completely spits in the face of the tournament and its spectators as well as their fellow players to a degree. In my mind there are two primary questions that still need to be answered:
1. Are Hwansin and Calm penalized prize money for fixing the game? As much a dick move as this is, I'm not sure this can be penalized. Look at poker, from what I understand it's completely legitimate for players to make a deal with each other to split prize money. It's a shame when this happens, and the tournament has the right to not allow specific players to enter, but in my opinion there should be nothing to stop players from doing this. In part because there's no way to practically police this. It's rare when you see people trying to fix a game doing it in such a careless manner, and it will probably never happen again either now that Hwansin and Calm have been caught. The two of them should be barred from being invited to any more foreign tournaments, but not penalized prize money.
2. What long term actions need to be taken to keep this from happening again? Like I said, the Koreans have all the power here. There's nothing the foreign community can really do that's effective, fair to all korean and foreign players, and doesn't cut off all Korean participation. Even if Hwansin and Calm are permenantly banned from foreign tournaments, other Korean pro gamers might choose to stay out of foreign tournaments out of solidarity, without losing face in their home country. Foreign tournaments could choose to not invite multiple koreans from the same team, but then what about foreign teams like ToT? While Korean teams have shown a far greater risk of fixing games, it's still not really fair to them.
The only real solution is for Blizzard to take the serious competition scene more seriously, which I think they're gearing up to do with StarCraft 2. Blizzard ultimately holds all the cards and has the legal right to say that Koreans can't even broadcast StarCraft. I'm not saying any sort of affirmative action type thing should be done with foreigners, because then you're just putting players in an environment where they can't win, leading to further embarrassment. But Blizzard has the ability to hold organize tournament structures as well as regulate the licensing for their own game in a manner that makes sure foreigners are given the same opportunity to earn respect as Koreans.
In the end, Korea has a professional scene and the rest of the world does not. This can't be changed, but Koreans don't need to be dicks and racists about it.
On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote: So what do you want to do about it? They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square.
Have you ever heard of sportmanship? I'm surprised that a player like you think that way.
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote: I will be brutally honest.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PROFESSIONALS FOR FUCKS SAKE.
If 20000$ or whatever isnt enough then they can fuck-off.
Some people have suggested that tournaments don't invite people from the same Korean team. That will not solve this problem, it will only undermine competition. The only way to prevent this type of stuff is for the foreign scene to step up. If Korean progamers actually take these tournaments seriously then they will be less inclinded to rig the games. If its always Korea in the top 3 spots, then they can rig games as long as they want beforehand and no one would find out. We desperately need foreigners that can compete to take top 3 spots away from Korea. Once the skill gap between Korea and foreign countries becomes even, it will indirectly make games more fair and increase good ethics in tournaments.
I'm tired of seeing people defend the Koreans by saying that they just don't care. It's true that they just don't care, but their apathy is only relevant when the thing they don't care about is properly assessed. So when people defend the Koreans by saying that they don't care, they like to imply that it's natural and understandable and perhaps even forgivable that they don't care. They are busy youths who already have enough pressure on them.
A better description would be that they are professionals attempting to make a career and that they knew how hard their chosen path was from the start. They also understand basic deals and engagements like an invitation to a foreign event. They understand that they are being invited with the expectation of playing their best. They understand the difference between an exhibition match and a serious event. They understand their mutual relationship with their fans. They understand that they represent more than just themselves: a team, a sponsor, a nation. They understand all of these things and yet they persist in betraying all of the good will placed in them and act on their apathy.
If Koreans can't handle their role as the only professional nation among an international community of amateurs, then they should just admit weakness and apologize. The pathetic clinging to excuses made by Koreans here isn't any legitimate explanation of their actions, but rather just further evidence of the Korean flaw in sportsmanship that has been exhibited by the Korean SC scene for years.
Not that I condone their actions, but I think most people in this thread are overreacting a tad.
Firstly, look at Hwasin's condition, flying back and forth over the past 3 days while playing non stop, obviously he is going to be tired at the end of it - especially because its a foreigner tournament and they are guarenteed 1st/2nd, how can u blame him for wanting to end the games quickly? Once again i'm not saying his actions correct or even justified...but just put yourself in his shoes for a second, and also consider what Letmelose was saying about how koreans really dont care much for foreigner tournaments.
On top of that, they played games one, two and three legitimately. I watched the games and they were excellent - though Hwasin was clearly tired as he tried to do "all in" plays in an attempt to end the game...ie. game two instead of defending his base from a muta/ling counter, he goes to counter Calm's main. The end result was Calm 2-1 Hwasin. Perhaps Hwasin holds a higher position than Calm, or the coach wanted Hwasin to win the series or maybe they rock paper scissored to decide who would come first and Hwasin won. Either way Calm had to throw the fourth game - that wasn't too bad because the game was interesting (1rax center, supply block choke and rape expo) and the audience got to watch a fifth game. Plus no one wants to see Calm 3-1 Hwasin.
The real problem is why Hwasin and Calm would throw the fifth game - the reasoning behind it is that Hwasin is tired etc...but its still not justifiable. But nonetheless, the games that were allegedly thrown were still entertaining, if somewhat one sided - if we didn't know the last two games were rigged then everyone would be talking about how good the series was.
Basically, put yourself in Hwasins shoes and cut him SOME slack at least. He has his professional career to worry about, obviously wanted to get back to korea asap and was in no state to play the last two games (after giving 3 good performances) - so rigging them in an interesting way was the best course of action in his eyes.
On October 22 2007 00:03 NonY[rC] wrote: For the people saying they could have done it a better way, remember the principle of "good enough". It's simple enough to trade games back and forth by announcing a counterable build via whisper just before the start. If you have a method that is good enough, you don't need a better way. They have no problem doing it the way they allegedly did it except that FPView was being recorded, so it's a weak argument to say that it's unlikely to be true at all just because their method wasn't optimal.
Now assuming that we know they arranged the games, can we not quickly reach a consensus that there's no defending their actions due to the nature of a spectator-driven event?
It's a strike against professional SC, Koreans, STX, Hwasin and Calm. Everyone just get over your fanboyism and deal with it.
On October 22 2007 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I cant believe you Nick. In one subject you blast people for being dishonorable and disrespectful to others and here you are like "blah, they won everybody else its fine if they want to rig the final games." Thats a bunch of bullshit.
As someone said earlier, if they really were splitting the money and such there is absolutely NO purpose in NOT playing real final games. They can agree to split the money and still have a solid fucking series that the fans can view with excitement. Nobody should have to explain to you why its a good idea for the finals of a tourney to actually matter. The fact that people do means you still have a lot of growing/learning to do. And I mean that contextually.
On October 22 2007 07:51 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: maybe not, but its the day when we stop caring about koreans
No, 99.99% of us will continue watching the Korean leagues no matter what kind of ridiculous disrespect the players show to foreigners.
Meh i guess that's true, but i for one won't feel the same watching their games knowing that they behaved like that.
I'm disappointed to say the least =/
I agree. I've been debating on whether or not to play starcraft nemore. The proscene kept it alive and now I'm disguisted by it. If it were the old days where there was nearly no skill gap between koreans and foreigners I would watch this and we would see a foreigner in the finals and not to mention there wouldn't be thrown games and split prize money. I'm pretty close to quitting SC altogether and focus on the warcraft 3 pro scene. (go to wc3l.com to see it) Koreans and foreigners are even and thats how I like it. Not one mega-nation to rule them all in the game.This is only my opinion and the wc3 scene is actually pretty cool. Not as skilled but not as serious in Korea which means not such hardcore practice thus meaning even and only business.
First, don't attack all the Korean's, or the Progamers. They are human. Some good, some bad. I'm willing to move the korean community just to show that the Korean community isn't apathetic.
For internet reasons I can't post the controversy on sgael.je.ro (the biggest starcraft community site) - nor is it the appropriate time - but I have posted it on fighterforum.com and fomos.kr
I truly wish to know what really happened, and if Hwasin did indeed make a deal with his teammate, I will see to it that the Korean community does not ignore it.
On October 22 2007 09:29 samsammy wrote: I truly wish to know what really happened, and if Hwasin did indeed make a deal with his teammate, I will see to it that the Korean community does not ignore it.
Are you still doubting the fact that they rigged the games?
Yes, I am STILL doubting. I don't make decisions that fast. But I do have to say the doubting side is more like 30 (70 --> not doubting side)
Anyways I posted the topic in two sites. Many people are replying, and I'm the reactions are quite serious. I'm hoping this just doesn't end as a 'post.'
On October 22 2007 09:41 samsammy wrote: Yes, I am STILL doubting. I don't make decisions that fast. But I do have to say the doubting side is more like 30 (70 --> not doubting side)
Anyways I posted the topic in two sites. Many people are replying, and I'm the reactions are quite serious. I'm hoping this just doesn't end as a 'post.'
someone get him video proof so he can post it there
On October 21 2007 22:37 MYM.Testie wrote: So what do you want to do about it? They are friends and team mates who probably agreed to split the prize money.
Even if their actions are proved true, it's not like anything should be done about it, or any penalization. Because they did win fair and square.
Have you ever heard of sportmanship? I'm surprised that a player like you think that way.
I've stuck by korean pros for many of their questionable choices but this is ridiculous. This is a SLAP in the face to the foreign SC scene and nothing short of a FULL apology should be acceptable. I can't see how anyone can try justifying this in anyway shape or form. Yeah, they're great players and this tourney isn't as big for them but SO FUCKING WHAT? Why did they choose to go play if they were going to treat it as a joke? There WERE serious players there, it was ran with the intention of broadening starcraft exposure across the world. This is disrespect from their part and as a Hwasin fan, I have to say it's disrespectful to me, the fans. Pros should know to behave better than this. I don't care if you were Boxer and invented SC as we know it.
Even though this quote was a joke, "Where is boxer, let him bitchslap all of them."
On October 22 2007 09:41 samsammy wrote: Yes, I am STILL doubting. I don't make decisions that fast. But I do have to say the doubting side is more like 30 (70 --> not doubting side)
Anyways I posted the topic in two sites. Many people are replying, and I'm the reactions are quite serious. I'm hoping this just doesn't end as a 'post.'
I have a write-able PGR21.com account, maybe I should go see what the more-righteous-than-thou crew thinks
On October 22 2007 09:29 samsammy wrote: First, don't attack all the Korean's, or the Progamers. They are human. Some good, some bad. I'm willing to move the korean community just to show that the Korean community isn't apathetic.
For internet reasons I can't post the controversy on sgael.je.ro (the biggest starcraft community site) - nor is it the appropriate time - but I have posted it on fighterforum.com and fomos.kr
I truly wish to know what really happened, and if Hwasin did indeed make a deal with his teammate, I will see to it that the Korean community does not ignore it.
Someone else already posted it there I think (actually saw several topics about the subject I think, although I only confirmed one, but saw at least two with hwasin and calm's names in the title).
Uploaded on Fomos with the id BoLoong in Fighterforum with id 대표소동 (Korean)
It started flaming up after I uploaded it in Fomos (chain reactions...) Right now it's morning according to Korean time, but the community sgael dcinside is already flaming up. I think we will get some kind of answer.
On October 22 2007 07:57 Asta wrote: Anyway, what I am more concerned about is that this leads directly to the assumption that they might do these things in Korean leagues too, when neccessary. I'm sure there wouldn't be any instance to stop them. If team managers or TV producers asked a player to cheat I would be surprised if he turned them down or even make it public. And under those circumstances, as a manager or producer, who wouldn't consider staging matches? Not only team internal ones.
You know, this actually happened once in Korean leagues. There was this huge scandal in the Korean Warcraft 3 scene during the time it was still decently active (2005-06 I believe), with Freedom (night-elf) as the victim. Apparently in the semi-finals of the MBC pro-league, one of the map-makers (under pressure from higher-ups) rigged the matches to make Orc overpowered (slightly shorter unit build-time, slightly longer spell durations, slightly faster turn speed, and lots more minute changes that added up). This was done because Moon (also night-elf) was already qualified for the finals on the other side of the bracket and they didn't want another mirror match-up (poor TV ratings).
Freedom (night-elf player) ended up losing 3-0 to the Orc (don't remember the name) in a match that was considered to be in his favor. Freedom didn't think anything about it during the time, but his buddy and best Orc player at the time (DayFly) was watching the match on the big screen and thought something was suspicious, especially how it ended up in 3-0. DayFly asked MBC for the map that was used in order to view the replay (you must have the exact copy of the map in War3 before being able to load it) and that's when he discovered all of the rigging that had taken place. If he hadn't done so, many of these subtle changes would never have been detected and gone unnoticed. Freedom's Orc opponent went on to be defeated 3-0 by Moon (on non-rigged maps), and his semi-final victory felt completely hollow to him. Freedom (top 3 player in Korea) was absolutely devastated, lost all motivation in War3 and due to this ended up switching to SC today, while still sticking with his Samsung team.
MBC lost all credibility and it was basically a disaster for them and the Korean War3 scene. They tried to change the name of their league into something else (without MBC in it's name), but the damage had already been done.
Start cynical rant here (not to be taken seriously): Now to put this into perspective, look at how many Terrans there are in the SC pro-leagues. Sometimes up to half or more of the players are Terran, yet we rarely ever saw any TvT finals and it wasn't due to lack of star players (Nada, Oov, Boxer, etc). I sincerely doubt any rigging has ever taken place in the SC scene, but if you think about it, it's not impossible for it to have happened. For example, if they just lowered the build time for a goon or zealot by 0.5-1 second, it would add up to a tremendous advantage to the non-terran player and yet not be easily noticed by a viewer. /End rant.
but I somehow always disagree with them and actually feel a lil bit of annoyance with him each time. The fact you are even suggesting that the pro scene could be rigged is nonsense.. merely because of (in your ignorant opinion) the lack of TvT finals? Wtf. I am all for conspiracy theories.. but they are only interesting when they actually have SOME evidence. Assertions, especially on the magnitude you are making is pure idiocy.
iNcontrol, I said I highly doubt this has ever happened in the SC scene. I'm just bringing the point out there that it could go unnoticed if they wanted to and that's all. You can make whatever you wish out of it.
Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
On October 22 2007 10:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote: orangedude makes really nice posts
but I somehow always disagree with them and actually feel a lil bit of annoyance with him each time.
he does the same thing in the mbs threads. posts that arent flat out wrong, but theyre built on bad assumptions or lack of knowledge, but theyre constructed well and he defends them to hell and back so its hard to argue with.
While Orangedude's claims aren't totally baseless, you can't really compare it to the War3 controversy. If I remember correctly, NE players were totally dominating the pro scene in Korea to the point where the ratings and crowd numbers were suffering due to the perceived imbalance in the game.
SC has always had a healthy and strong balance so there has never been a need for any rigging of matches.
As for this whole controversy, I can understand that Hwasin being sick and tired at the time just wanted to get the games over and done with and did something he shouldn't have.
What they both did was wrong, but I think it's clear he just wanted to gtfo since the money was in the bag and he had nothing to play for. Sad, but true reality unfortunantely.
Anyways, ignore that last part and pretend I never wrote it, since I pretty much expected this kind of response. I was just being cynical, seeing how there is precedent by none other than MBC. I'm not out here to argue with or accuse anyone.
I'll write down a few reactions. I've went to pgr21, fomos, fighterforum, and starcraft gallery.
A few minutes ago it was going quiet because someone said you can't whisper in udp. It turns out you can and its flaming up again.
A few responses. - A chinese dude started the flaming (yeah Koreans have a thing against Chinese (not all of em) because of the whole history manipulation thing going on, but lets not talk about that)
- STX is fucked up. It's an international disgrace
Generally it looks like the Koreans are trying to get an answer from Hwasin/Calm now. It seems to be getting pretty serious.
Amusing, but unrelated. This is about sportsmanship on the player's side, match fixing in itself by the organizers is another thing altogether.
I remember that scandal, DayFly was so pissed when he learned his victories had been on maps rigged in his favor as well, I think he was threatening violence initially.
On October 22 2007 10:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
THE PRO SCENE DOESNT MATTER, ITS ALL A HOAX.
Now you are really, really twisting his words. He didn't make it out to be at all likely..
On October 22 2007 10:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
THE PRO SCENE DOESNT MATTER, ITS ALL A HOAX.
Now you are really, really twisting his words. He didn't make it out to be at all likely..
No shit, nor did I say it was "likely" we live in the matrix but rather "its possible." My beef is with him making a "cynical rant" on a FUCKING POSSIBILITY. HENCE MY SATIRE.
FA dont be a retard, wear your thinking cap for fuck sakes.
On October 22 2007 07:45 samsammy wrote: All right.
Let me ask one thing. Where is the evidence, people?
I do agree that in one way Hwasin and Calm did not take it seriously. The significance of IEST was more of an event to Hwasin, Calm and Sheis.
Thats why in Game one Sheis tried to fast nuke Pheonix (or leilei?) in quarterfinals. It wasn't a losing strategy, but it was possible and fun. Ok, in a sense they didn't do their best. But I don't believe they rigged it. Like "you do this and I'll do that." It was more like "Let's have fun, trying the best."
Please. Don't try to kill an innocent starcraft player before you even have evidence. (I mean strong and hard evidence, not shallow ones)
Dude, you're an idiot. Your concept of proof is obviously skewed when you think someone saying they are happy they won in an interview magically proves their innocence. So your asking "where's the proof" means something completely different from what most people would take it to mean, since there's plenty of proof, and you obviously have difficulty reading since you have decided to completely ignore everything in this thread.
Anyways I find it pretty stupid what they did, but I'd like to know what the actual terms of their agreement were, how they picked who'd win, etc
On October 22 2007 10:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote: orangedude makes really nice posts
but I somehow always disagree with them and actually feel a lil bit of annoyance with him each time.
he does the same thing in the mbs threads. posts that arent flat out wrong, but theyre built on bad assumptions or lack of knowledge, but theyre constructed well and he defends them to hell and back so its hard to argue with.
This is the height of irony. You need to develop some perspective, Idra.
On October 22 2007 10:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
THE PRO SCENE DOESNT MATTER, ITS ALL A HOAX.
Now you are really, really twisting his words. He didn't make it out to be at all likely..
No shit, nor did I say it was "likely" we live in the matrix but rather "its possible." My beef is with him making a "cynical rant" on a FUCKING POSSIBILITY. HENCE MY SATIRE.
FA dont be a retard, wear your thinking cap for fuck sakes.
See, here's the problem. You think that rant was the main point of my post, when I just added it in as an afterthought when I was writing it. I only even wrote about the War3 scandal, because it was a response to Asta's post, and the point was to inform not to make accusations. You just have beef with me, because of the arguing from MBS threads.
On October 22 2007 11:38 syfa625 wrote: For the Korean players these foreign tournaments such as IEST are just pleasure ground, I don't blame them, for they dominate Starcraft .
What a shame.. can't believe this happened. Humiliating the whole progaming scene and Koreans. Hwasin's interview after the finals makes it worse. Victory by experience? WTF.. Looks like after Hwasin's loss against Bisu in MSL, STX Soul decided to make Hwasin the winner to somewhat improve his condition and avoid slump. That's the only reason I can think of rigging the game even though they can split up the money afterwards. Both players deserve heavy punishments and im curious what STX soul is gonna bring up for this.
On October 22 2007 10:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
THE PRO SCENE DOESNT MATTER, ITS ALL A HOAX.
Now you are really, really twisting his words. He didn't make it out to be at all likely..
No shit, nor did I say it was "likely" we live in the matrix but rather "its possible." My beef is with him making a "cynical rant" on a FUCKING POSSIBILITY. HENCE MY SATIRE.
FA dont be a retard, wear your thinking cap for fuck sakes.
Nah I'm on his side on this one, the main point of the post was the War3 incident, the last part was nothing but an 'aside'.
On October 22 2007 11:58 XellOs_PlutO wrote: What a shame.. can't believe this happened. Humiliating the whole progaming scene and Koreans. Hwasin's interview after the finals makes it worse. Victory by experience? WTF.. Looks like after Hwasin's loss against Bisu in MSL, STX Soul decided to make Hwasin the winner to somewhat improve his condition and avoid slump. That's the only reason I can think of rigging the game even though they can split up the money afterwards. Both players deserve heavy punishments and im curious what STX soul is gonna bring up for this.
I can't imagine winning a game you KNOW is rigged is going to improve your condition or make you feel good about your abilities. If anything, the fact that the game was rigged would be more likely to make you feel as if you couldn't win WITHOUT rigging.
For Korean progamers, competition like IEST does not mean anything. Especially, the non-korean players, knowing they are gonna lose, often try to cheese-rush. Then, why do the progamers bother to do their best in those games? And if the audience really wanted the best games, they can just watch OSL or MSL.
Of course they did wrong things, but i am not sure if this is completely their fault though.
CRAZY, thats so messed up and disapointing, even if they won the other games fair and square, its not fair for audience
And correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was a superfight and hwasin could not control his mm force worth crap, it was sad and I was thinking how he beat savior. commentators were like, yes this game is hard to micro but its been out for 10 years and he still cant do it any good.
On October 22 2007 11:58 XellOs_PlutO wrote: What a shame.. can't believe this happened. Humiliating the whole progaming scene and Koreans. Hwasin's interview after the finals makes it worse. Victory by experience? WTF.. Looks like after Hwasin's loss against Bisu in MSL, STX Soul decided to make Hwasin the winner to somewhat improve his condition and avoid slump. That's the only reason I can think of rigging the game even though they can split up the money afterwards. Both players deserve heavy punishments and im curious what STX soul is gonna bring up for this.
I can't imagine winning a game you KNOW is rigged is going to improve your condition or make you feel good about your abilities. If anything, the fact that the game was rigged would be more likely to make you feel as if you couldn't win WITHOUT rigging.
You have a point. This manipulation only appeals to the public as if Hwasin still got the IEST title and managed to show his steady performance despite his deadly schedule last week. I guess STX Soul thought it is better off for Hwasin to win IEST even by fixing than losing both MSL and IEST. Volunteering for 30games in 3days and losing all might seem to harsh for the ace of the team.
Photoshopped pictures are way too common in Korea. Alot of Koreans are now starting to doubt this since the only source of FPVod isn't working after hours of trying.
Edit: Alot of Koreans were actually convinced, but seeing that the only link to Vod is impossible to play, we're forced to believe the otherwise.
On October 22 2007 12:53 FConnectionUK wrote: Photoshopped pictures are way too common in Korea. Alot of Koreans are now starting to doubt this since the only source of FPVod isn't working after hours of trying.
Edit: Alot of Koreans were actually convinced, but seeing that the only link to Vod is impossible to play, we're forced to believe the otherwise.
I really think Hwasin and Calm were just joking around. If the match was rigged/arranged it was probably done before the game. Hwasin and Calm wouldnt chat like that while thousands of people are watching unless they're really that stupid. Seems like people( mostly Chinese who are jealous of Koreas egaming success) are overexaggerating over some random joke(chat) between Hwasin & Calm.
edit: Hwasin & Calm is innocent untill proven guilty.
On October 22 2007 12:53 FConnectionUK wrote: Photoshopped pictures are way too common in Korea. Alot of Koreans are now starting to doubt this since the only source of FPVod isn't working after hours of trying.
Edit: Alot of Koreans were actually convinced, but seeing that the only link to Vod is impossible to play, we're forced to believe the otherwise.
I was trying it and its worked, if it doesnt work for you ask any of you friend who knows chinese ppl to prove it.
You should suggest another links or upload an another link if you want to convince Korean community. (Some are even saying "F**king Chinese manipulations") Many people in Korea are trying to access your links and play the moive, but it was showing "loading" for hours and not working at all (Me, too) maybe that Chinese links are not working in Korea. and don's expect common Koreans usually have chinese friends...-_-
I hope STX-soul team make it clear soon. It must be sad if it is true.
actually, chinese govnt prohibited chinese ppl from using youtube. They have to go through proxy shit to get to there. Back to the point, Is there any non-chinese ppl who managed to see that vid?
On October 22 2007 13:38 keinjuan wrote: actually, chinese govnt prohibited chinese ppl from using youtube. They have to go through proxy shit to get to there. Back to the point, Is there any non-chinese ppl who managed to see that vid?
On October 22 2007 13:46 aoaoao wrote: It's really not a big deal,IEST should not invite koreans from the same team,it's the organizer's fault
So say, some football team loses to another team because their "friend" betted money on the oppositing team or something like that, is it organizers fault?
How is the organizer supposed to know that the football team was actually the Sucky Team X?
This is the same situation but without betting, saying its organizers fault is just stupid
Things like this can't happen if we want e-Sports to keep growing.
On October 22 2007 13:20 []Dlayer wrote: Hwasin and Calm wouldnt chat like that while thousands of people are watching unless they're really that stupid. Seems like people( mostly Chinese who are jealous of Koreas egaming success)
silly of you to say that
I watched their whispers on screen ,so did hundreds of Hwasin's fans ,they were watching Hwasin's view.
it's not about jealousy , Chinese were angry because they paid to watch their idol's match , but got fooled by their idol .
This chinese site fucking sucks at working for me . I can do the conversion from .flv to .wmv or whatever youtube wants, but I can't get the .flv. If someone will download the .flv, I'll convert it and upload it to youtube.
On October 22 2007 13:20 []Dlayer wrote: I really think Hwasin and Calm were just joking around. If the match was rigged/arranged it was probably done before the game. Hwasin and Calm wouldnt chat like that while thousands of people are watching unless they're really that stupid. Seems like people( mostly Chinese who are jealous of Koreas egaming success) are overexaggerating over some random joke(chat) between Hwasin & Calm.
edit: Hwasin & Calm is innocent untill proven guilty.
On October 22 2007 13:20 []Dlayer wrote: I really think Hwasin and Calm were just joking around. If the match was rigged/arranged it was probably done before the game. Hwasin and Calm wouldnt chat like that while thousands of people are watching unless they're really that stupid. Seems like people( mostly Chinese who are jealous of Koreas egaming success) are overexaggerating over some random joke(chat) between Hwasin & Calm.
edit: Hwasin & Calm is innocent untill proven guilty.
QFT
The proof is right in front of your eyes and you aren't able to see it
If it was a joke, its a fucking idiotic one for sure.
If you see game 1,2,3, they typed ㅎㅎ or ㅈㅈ instead of gg. (ㅎㅎ is just a typo where you put gg without converting the keyboard setting into korean. ㅈㅈ is just equivalent of gg in terms of pronounciation)
What is taking so long to get even a small clip from the video onto a better site? I know China has problems with web censorship, but this is just ridiculous.
Of course I believe they rigged the games, but bringing this fact to the attention of the average Korean SC fan without first making those videos available for download (for the non-Chinese world) is just a collosal failure -_-.
so mount of stupid man disscusing a obvious rigged game. i went to iest hall yesterday. its so obviously,two korea man playing the game like nomarly trainning. no big game,no strong game,like they had made a same module. they win the game one by one.they deceived the chinese people and the player on computer all over the word. . i just very angry and bile for their personality .
Furthermore, considering the prize money comes from ads and other sponsorship, and possibly from ticket sales (?), the final players are obligated to at least try their best. Professional sports players get paid because people want to watch them play. Rigging games like this with 100% proof should be grounds for them to forfeit their prize money, in my opinion. Let alone how morally outrageous it is.
On October 22 2007 08:52 DTDominion wrote: At some point, Koreans hold all the power. Because the Korean community doesn't care about foreigners (due to a combination of racism and generally being dick headed), Korean players can blow off foreign players and tournaments without any repercussions. But if a foreign tournament blows off Korean players, its cut off from being taken seriously ever again.
Not necessarily. Remember the TLTour final tournaments?
What are chinese ppl thinking? If you've got the proof, just show us and we will believe it. Just trying to offend other ppl does not do any good. By far, no non-chinese ppl managed to see that vid.
On October 22 2007 14:19 Bill307 wrote: What is taking so long to get even a small clip from the video onto a better site? I know China has problems with web censorship, but this is just ridiculous.
Of course I believe they rigged the games, but bringing this fact to the attention of the average Korean SC fan without first making those videos available for download (for the non-Chinese world) is just a collosal failure -_-.
so i've told Andy not to flog a dead horse here .
IEST is a laughingstock now , paid money to invite Korean progamers and got toyed with .
On October 22 2007 14:39 keinjuan wrote: What are chinese ppl thinking? If you've got the proof, just show us and we will believe it. Just trying to offend other ppl does not do any good. By far, no non-chinese ppl managed to see that vid.
there'are some ppl seeing it out of china from the PPlive
they should make their best to be quailified 2.5w dolars and so many audience in the hall and front of computer. wo should invite more Europe player and US player. never give channce to korean anymore.audience want to watch a true game.not a arranged game.
I think it's pretty lame. Why not just play a GG if they're going to split the money anyways. Also, like stated by many others, the tournement was for the fans; they comprimised the legit'ness of the tournie.
On October 22 2007 14:39 keinjuan wrote: What are chinese ppl thinking? If you've got the proof, just show us and we will believe it. Just trying to offend other ppl does not do any good. By far, no non-chinese ppl managed to see that vid.
there'are some ppl seeing it out of china from the PPlive
get back to this thread you will find it
If you want any credibility in getting people to believe you, then go and download it and upload it to yousendit.com or something like that. Then one of the non-koreans will convert the .flv and upload to youtube, and koreans will actually believe you. Also I just searched this entire thread for PPLive and it only appears twice in this thread, never with a link to view it or anything.
Seriously, stop saying how many people have seen it, and do the steps so that people can actually see it now.
On October 22 2007 14:31 tehsex wrote: andy i think u should calm down. i doubt this affects ur life this much.
I think you should stop being a dick.
Moreover, this kind of community reaction is necessary to discourage other players from doing the same thing in the future. This is why we e.g. imprison criminals even when they didn't affect the judge or jury members personally. It's the civilised world's way of looking out for one another.
On October 22 2007 14:41 A.G)Andy wrote: once again looking back the World Cup 2002
Korea vs Spain Korea vs Italy that was a Joke
from the behavior of past year WCG performance ,im not suprised why they did that
or for what
why do you fucking bringing 2002 world cup into this matter?
do you have something against korean people in general?
to me, you are trying to give bad reputation of general korean ppl.
im sorry but for the ppl here they most asking why they do like this ? why they just finish with 3:0 and quickly go home since they will split the money for sure
im still cant understand why they need to do this to make it like some big event ?
with the interview afterwads from Hwasin that was a big joke
This morning, from a Korean starcraft fansite 'Sgael',
I came across a post concerning this game-fixing rumors.
Although the heat of the controversy seems to be very high in foreign communities,
Korean communities (fifo, fomos, pgr21 and sgael) generally share the opinion that
the screenshot was manipulated not the game.
Personally, I share same opinion as the Koreans and there are few evidences for my argument.
1. There is no proof that the screenshot was actually taken from the game I am sure that you guys know how easy it is just to go onto UDP, make a room and take a screenshot just like that with your friend. I am expressing my opinion assuming that the screenshot was manipulated. Ofcourse, it could've been actually taken from the game.
2. The link of the game vod never loads Yes, if the vod can be viewed, all the arguments can end. But the vod never loads and it seems that its not just my internet that doesn't load vod for games 4 and 5. If it was for over-traffic, there must have been SOMEONE who has watched it. I've had a quick read through all the posts and I never came across a post which says that they have watched the video. Correct me if I am wrong. Without the vod, It seems very meaningless accusing the STX team when the validity of the screenshot cannot even be verified.
3. Reason for manipulating? Is there ANY reason for STX players to manipulate the game? One user pointed out that the players share the prizemoney. So, whats the point who comes first when it comes to money? Also, it is sad to say, but for Koreans IEST is not very important. It is just a small minor event that opens overseas. Other than prizemoney, IEST wouldn't bring them any honour as IEST is not recognised highly. Bearing that in your mind, just think about how much Hwasin will benefit from winning the competition. In my opinion, there are not much to gain.
4. Looking at vod for games 1-3, the Korean players typed their "gg" in Korean character Yes, that means that Korean language patch was installed on the match PC. Now, if they were really willing to manipulate the game, why not use the comfortable native character? What they used was a Korean language that was expressed in English as a sound. Being a Korean, the quotes "Dae choon 2 sunken no ring" sounds somewhat unnatural and 'seriously' grammatically wrong. (Maybe just like my English ... )
5. Why manipulate the game dangerously during the game? They had all day to manipulate the game SAFELY before the game.
These are just opinions from Korean communities and
I summed them up and put some of my own opinions in.
I maybe biased towards Koreans but please recognise that I tried to be as fair as possible.
In my opinion, before any proving, accusing players seem very meaningless.
The STX players, among with other Korean progamers are young talented people who have to
live in a small dorm and train like a machine. It is admiration for their effort that they need not the
accusation concerning matters.
They are 'pros', and I think we have to respect them for their job.
Even if it turns out that the game was actually manipulated,
it is probably the decision of the team front office, so as a starcraft fan just like you guys,
This morning, from a Korean starcraft fansite 'Sgael',
I came across a post concerning this game-fixing rumors.
Although the heat of the controversy seems to be very high in foreign communities,
Korean communities (fifo, fomos, pgr21 and sgael) generally share the opinion that
the screenshot was manipulated not the game.
Personally, I share same opinion as the Koreans and there are few evidences for my argument.
1. There is no proof that the screenshot was actually taken from the game I am sure that you guys know how easy it is just to go onto UDP, make a room and take a screenshot just like that with your friend. I am expressing my opinion assuming that the screenshot was manipulated. Ofcourse, it could've been actually taken from the game.
2. The link of the game vod never loads Yes, if the vod can be viewed, all the arguments can end. But the vod never loads and it seems that its not just my internet that doesn't load vod for games 4 and 5. If it was for over-traffic, there must have been SOMEONE who has watched it. I've had a quick read through all the posts and I never came across a post which says that they have watched the video. Correct me if I am wrong. Without the vod, It seems very meaningless accusing the STX team when the validity of the screenshot cannot even be verified.
3. Reason for manipulating? Is there ANY reason for STX players to manipulate the game? One user pointed out that the players share the prizemoney. So, whats the point who comes first when it comes to money? Also, it is sad to say, but for Koreans IEST is not very important. It is just a small minor event that opens overseas. Other than prizemoney, IEST wouldn't bring them any honour as IEST is not recognised highly. Bearing that in your mind, just think about how much Hwasin will benefit from winning the competition. In my opinion, there are not much to gain.
4. Looking at vod for games 1-3, the Korean players typed their "gg" in Korean character Yes, that means that Korean language patch was installed on the match PC. Now, if they were really willing to manipulate the game, why not use the comfortable native character? What they used was a Korean language that was expressed in English as a sound. Being a Korean, the quotes "Dae choon 2 sunken no ring" sounds somewhat unnatural and 'seriously' grammatically wrong. (Maybe just like my English ... )
5. Why manipulate the game dangerously during the game? They had all day to manipulate the game SAFELY before the game.
These are just opinions from Korean communities and
I summed them up and put some of my own opinions in.
I maybe biased towards Koreans but please recognise that I tried to be as fair as possible.
In my opinion, before any proving, accusing players seem very meaningless.
The STX players, among with other Korean progamers are young talented people who have to
live in a small dorm and train like a machine. It is admiration for their effort that they need not the
accusation concerning matters.
They are 'pros', and I think we have to respect them for their job.
Even if it turns out that the game was actually manipulated,
it is probably the decision of the team front office, so as a starcraft fan just like you guys,
I beg you not to accuse the players
Thanks
This is a really good post, and your english is very good too . Similar to your question about why the koreans would manipulate the game, I also don't see why the chinese would manipulate a screenshot. They would seem to have even less motive for this, since even if this is found to be true, it's not going to change anything about IEST itself, nor does it (for example) help a chinese player advance.
On October 22 2007 14:51 A.G)Andy wrote: i have no time to download it and upload it to the othersite
but i have asked my friend to do it
How have you made so many posts in this topic after saying you have no time? -.-
Boys, the *.flv flies are coming now. The video which was recorded in p2p boardcast player(PPLive) is not so clear and it's speaking chinese, BUT in the video you can see Hawsin was typing "/w ****" clearly to chat without being seen by the game host and other audience as they thought. They must dont know IEST have the FP boardcasting online. Hm...It's so sad it happened, because we are not strong enough to defend these Koreans players, and I still believe most Korean player are not like them. Here are the links: 1. http://www.flyupload.com/get?fid=2195034
On October 22 2007 14:51 A.G)Andy wrote: i have no time to download it and upload it to the othersite
but i have asked my friend to do it
If you have no time, then why are you still posting on TLnet?
Stop making up excuses and upload it already.
china have made so many efforts to sc,inviting so many sc player so many times all over the word to join the game . do you have ever seen koeran invited sc player to play?they are so boturated and conceit. but this is the first time wo are so angry for the action of the korean people.because they did too egregiously. cant belive however?
On October 22 2007 14:59 A.G)Andy wrote: For those ppl who may doubt it
FYI, a lot of us don't doubt it, but we still want to see it for ourselves. Moreover, many Koreans don't believe it either, and honestly we can't blame them.
On October 22 2007 14:41 A.G)Andy wrote: once again looking back the World Cup 2002
Korea vs Spain Korea vs Italy that was a Joke
from the behavior of past year WCG performance ,im not suprised why they did that
or for what
What the heck was that for? Is this because we Koreans own you at all things including SC and soccer? I agree what Hwasin and Calm did was wrong, but what's the deal with this. -_-
On October 22 2007 15:06 keinjuan wrote: I managed to dl(the link works perfectly), but i unfortunately do not know how to run it. I will just wait till someone post it on youtube.
Guoqing//Do not use translating software...
Can you upload it to senduit or yousendit and I will post to youtube?
On October 22 2007 14:41 A.G)Andy wrote: once again looking back the World Cup 2002
Korea vs Spain Korea vs Italy that was a Joke
from the behavior of past year WCG performance ,im not suprised why they did that
or for what
What the heck was that for? Is this because we Koreans own you at all things including SC and soccer? I agree what Hwasin and Calm did was wrong, but what's the deal with this. -_-
all things?aha,you korea was so humorous. what everything?except sc and soccer?
On October 22 2007 14:41 A.G)Andy wrote: once again looking back the World Cup 2002
Korea vs Spain Korea vs Italy that was a Joke
from the behavior of past year WCG performance ,im not suprised why they did that
or for what
What the heck was that for? Is this because we Koreans own you at all things including SC and soccer? I agree what Hwasin and Calm did was wrong, but what's the deal with this. -_-
all things?aha,you korea was so humorous. what everything?except sc and soccer?
I belive this not means that all koreans players are doing this, take for example soccer, there are many teams or have been many teams that have cheated and arrenged games, but people still see the game because is so good and not all the teams do it
On October 22 2007 15:06 keinjuan wrote: I managed to dl(the link works perfectly), but i unfortunately do not know how to run it. I will just wait till someone post it on youtube.
These two links take me to the pages containing the videos.
Unfortunately, it's stuck on "Loading..." =/
Is it really that hard for someone to upload even 5 mins of one of the videos to a better website? You don't even need to re-encode the .flv files: you could just record it with Camtasia or another screen capture program.
Edit: seems like it isn't even loading anything -_-.
On October 22 2007 14:58 daladala wrote: Boys, the *.flv flies are coming now. The video which was recorded in p2p boardcast player(PPLive) is not so clear and it's speaking chinese, BUT in the video you can see Hawsin was typing "/w ****" clearly to chat without being seen by the game host and other audience as they thought. They must dont know IEST have the FP boardcasting online. Hm...It's so sad it happened, because we are not strong enough to defend these Koreans players, and I still believe most Korean player are not like them. Here are the links: 1. http://www.flyupload.com/get?fid=2195034
Ok I have some sort of file downloading, I assume its an .flv but it has no file extension.. If I can get it to work I will upoad asap. Anyone get these yet? confirm/deny whether it works?
On October 22 2007 10:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Alright.. along those lines.. Did you guys know it could be possible that we are all actually a part of the matrix? And the professional SC scene could just be a opiate esque device designed to pacify us as our body is harvested for energy? ZOMG
THE PRO SCENE DOESNT MATTER, ITS ALL A HOAX.
Now you are really, really twisting his words. He didn't make it out to be at all likely..
No shit, nor did I say it was "likely" we live in the matrix but rather "its possible." My beef is with him making a "cynical rant" on a FUCKING POSSIBILITY. HENCE MY SATIRE.
FA dont be a retard, wear your thinking cap for fuck sakes.
Nah I'm on his side on this one, the main point of the post was the War3 incident, the last part was nothing but an 'aside'.
uh you can be on his side all you want. Nobody said anything about main fucking points, he fucking SAID what I satired and you didnt catch that cause you were temporarily a moron and now you are switching to "well that wasnt the main thing he said" as if that fucking matters.
"I love niggers." WHAT? The main point is "Love" not the other part... ROFL
I can convert .flv files, but I can't download it from this terrible file hosting site. Seriously, it won't take you guys long to upload it to a decent site like yousendit.com or senduit.com (which is what I personally use) (bill and I are talking on IM, and we can't figure out how to DL on this site, I've tried IE / Firefox, enabled popups)
ed2: I might have it via a downloading utility, rather than standard IE download -_-
seriously dude, we can play .flv, we can convert them, etc.. We just cannot download them vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
We need you to upload the FLV file to a GOOD file hosting site. Example: http://www.sendspace.com/ Many other GOOD file hosting sites were posted by other people.
We need you to upload the FLV file to a GOOD file hosting site. Example: http://www.sendspace.com/ Many other GOOD file hosting sites were posted by other people.
We need you to upload the FLV file to a GOOD file hosting site. Example: http://www.sendspace.com/ Many other GOOD file hosting sites were posted by other people.
Actually, nevermind: HnR)Insane tells me on MSN that he was able to download the files from the links you provided. He's converting them and should have them uploaded soon. Thank you . But for future reference, you should use a better file hosting site next time =/.
Edit: actually, I guess we may still need you to upload the 2nd one to a better site after all... =/
Well, for actual stat-rigging to happen in sc (like wc3's rex.romeo vs freedom semi) you'd need a custom loader for that, which is gonna be a lot more noticeable than wc3's case. It can't be done right out of maps themselves.
So far the article is very vague. It doesn't disprove of anything nor does it approve. Most of Koreans are waiting for solid evidence.
Edit: The key point is this: that there were some type of conversation before the game started. However, there are numerous times, for example, All-Star Games, where players are to use such time to put up a psychological fight.
Heh, according to game5 video you just posted, calm said "all drone 1 sunken be tigi handa hm" just like in the pic posted earlier. Hwasin said the samething also.
<img src='http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2287/vlcsnap1792725kw8.png'> This is an image I captured from a non-youtube version of it (which is slightly higher text quality, I think). I realize it's not exactly proof, but I think you can make out (relatively) well the "2sunken no ring" at the far bottom right
Game 4 text is at 9:35->9:34, you have to repeatedly hit "pause/play" to get it. It definitely looks odd but ... just seems very weird Hwasin would scroll to it?
Edit: Mental trick?! Does the coaches think we are RETARDED? You use a mental trick to state your EXACT build so you can psyche your opponent out?
On October 22 2007 14:41 A.G)Andy wrote: once again looking back the World Cup 2002
Korea vs Spain Korea vs Italy that was a Joke
from the behavior of past year WCG performance ,im not suprised why they did that
or for what
What the heck was that for? Is this because we Koreans own you at all things including SC and soccer? I agree what Hwasin and Calm did was wrong, but what's the deal with this. -_-
all things?aha,you korea was so humorous. what everything?except sc and soccer?
Well my point is that he didn't need to bring in random stuff like the WorldCup, which has nothing to do with this thread. It seems like you guys are trying to insult Korea as a whole, which is fucked up.
ps- Haha, like someone said English is definitely one of "everything." List three things yourself and I will tell you more.
On October 22 2007 15:39 HnR)Insane wrote: <img src='http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2287/vlcsnap1792725kw8.png'> This is an image I captured from a non-youtube version of it (which is slightly higher text quality, I think). I realize it's not exactly proof, but I think you can make out (relatively) well the "2sunken no ring" at the far bottom right
the coaches admitted they chatted a lot before the game, but it was just a mind game between the two(apparently a common thing pros do before the game in chat).
edit To have a solid proof, we need to see exactly what they said in chat and see if they both follow up on what they said in chat during the actual game.
Well, now I'm convinced 200%. Hopefully enough Koreans will swallow their national pride and Hwasin and Calm will suffer some non-trivial reprecussions for their odius lack of sportsmanship.
Coach Cho Gyu-baek of STX: "It is true that the players were chatting during the finals. But match fixing is rediculous. We believe that chatting during the game for mind games was misunderstood to be cheating."
"There was a lot of chatting going on and most of it was simple and routine chatting/mind games between the players. There were some people at the scene who made accusations, but the organizers who are familiar with Korea understood that there was nothing wrong going on."
SO that would be a formal denial.
The article goes on to mention that the evidence is inconclusive, and there's also a quote from Head Coach of STX backing the honesty and character of Hwasin and Calm.
This kind of mental games do happen in event games lots.. Especially Hwasin seems to do a lot of this due to his young age. (as shown in 2007 First Season All Star Matches.)
However... This was just ridiculous. I wonder what STX will say about this.
On October 22 2007 15:49 .dragoon wrote: Yea I see it. 17 seconds into the vid there's a flash of text.
I can make out the 12pool part from youtube vid. youtube's a bad idea in the end.
Someone upload a HQ version.
The .flv itself is really low quality to begin with, so unless we get a better source vid we can't make it higher quality . The .avi I uploaded on yousendit last page was same quality as the .flv.
the coaches admitted they chatted a lot before the game, but it was just a mind game between the two(apparently a common thing pros do before the game in chat).
edit To have a solid proof, we need to see exactly what they said in chat and see if they both follow up on what they said in chat during the actual game.
First I thought it was just a frame, but the text disappeared b/w 17sec and 18 sec cus Hwasin scrolled down.
Btw if you compare side by side what the vids show and what was reportedly said, they're identical. To remove all doubt, A.G)Andy please upload a HQ version.
nvm I just saw insane's .avi, it's pretty obvious now.
So basically STX coach formally denied the accusations and suggested that the foreigners could have misinterpreted the conversation. He said that Hwasin and Calm were chatting strategical things as part of the mental game.
The article and the responses seem really negative though. The writer of the article talks about the possibility of fake screenshots, lack of evidence, and etc. STX Coach even said he's not going to bother responding and such.
Few responses - *one wouldn't be say that if he saw Calm's face after the loss... *do they really think they will match korea in SC if they do stuff like this? +insert some explicit words *FiFo+Fomos+some other site need to go mass rush. (referring to Teamliquid, I think) *pure nonsense hahahah
On October 22 2007 16:03 OneOther wrote: From Fomos.kr Article-
So basically STX coach formally denied the accusations and suggested that the foreigners could have misinterpreted the conversation. He said that Hwasin and Calm were chatting strategical things as part of the mental game.
The article and the responses seem really negative though. The writer of the article talks about the possibility of fake screenshots, lack of evidence, and etc. STX Coach even said he's not going to bother responding and such.
Few responses - *one wouldn't be say that if he saw Calm's face after the loss... *do they really think they will match korea if they shit like this? etc etc *FiFo+Fomos+some other site need to go mass rush. (referring to Teamliquid, I think) *pure nonsense hahahah
ya it seems like not a single Korean is buying it
How about you post the evidence to fomos then?
I actually seem to be in the minority (ed: of foreigners) in that I don't care very much that they did this / don't think it's a huge deal, but I like the truth to be known.
*If this was a mental game, why whisper? Why not just chat in normal? *Such an honest mental game...
Edit: Also only source the Koreans have to review this matter is one very unclear photo. So I don't blame them being doubtful for now. Although someone named Pluto is doing great job providing them more sources.
Calm officially said this according to fighterforum. "I tried to upset him(Hwasin) by saying I can still beat him playing in such strategy. I did not know this mind game would cause this huge misapprehension."
Hwasin said "I just replied to Calm with no intention other than for fun. This happens very frequently between us. I just rushed him early because it doesn't really matter who win."
yea.. so.. Hwasin really did not take the game seriously, regardless of the fixing issue.
Two Korean players were reviewing the 4th game while the break between 4th game and 5th."all drones, 1 sunken."that's definitely happend @ 4th game.. It's rumor Andy is a nerd.... that's the truth
I don't see what more evidence do they need? The screenshots matches /exactly/. Also from the sounds of things, it sounded already like they acknowledge that the things said were probably what their strats were going into game but yet they expect us to believe that they were trying to mentally psych the other person out? That's just ridiculous and from the tone of things sounds like they're covering their behind. You don't deny something by saying "oh it's not true but just in case it's true, here's another excuse to throw at you".
Calm: "It was a mind trick, I was saying that even if I play like that I could still win, it was a taunt. I didn't expect it to cause this kind of misunderstanding."
Hwasin: "I played along with his messages but chat like that happens every game [during practice]. The one thing I didn't want was for the games to go long. So I attacked early with the thought that, if it works great, if not, then Calm wins so great."
Coach of STX: "Why would we fix a match when it doesn't matter who wins? I don't know where this controversy came from. What happened was two teammates with little experience playing in overseas tournaments were playing light-heartedly.
hwasin and Calm must be happy.. bad blood between China and South Korea seems to be enough to make whats the truth irrelevant.. the fact that the videos didn't get uploaded fast enough also gave them all the time they needed to say that the screenshot was manipulated and that they wouldn't even bother responding to such accusations, and now the entire community seems to have decided it was just "some jealous Chinese guy".
On October 22 2007 16:14 Jibba wrote: "with little experience playing in overseas tournaments"
What does that have to do with anything? They're playing the exact same game.
I think the coach is referring to the fact that, the game is the same, but tournament organization and rules are different (ex: no chat in Korea)
Ah.
Well, it seems that they're digging themselves deeper since their "mind tricks" play out exactly what happened in game. BTW, can anyone translate what they say in the game 4 VOD when they're waiting for game 5 to start?
On October 22 2007 16:12 HonestTea wrote: Quotes from the players from FiFo article:
Calm: "It was a mind trick, I was saying that even if I play like that I could still win, it was a taunt. I didn't expect it to cause this kind of misunderstanding."
Hwasin: "I played along with his messages but chat like that happens every game [during practice]. The one thing I didn't want was for the games to go long. So I attacked early with the thought that, if it works great, if not, then Calm wins so great."
Coach of STX: "Why would we fix a match when it doesn't matter who wins? I don't know where this controversy came from. What happened was two teammates with little experience playing in overseas tournaments were playing light-heartedly.
From FiFo article.
Haha. In other words they did it, but fear the reactions. So they decided to admit it´s partially true.
Calm: "Hey I will beat with only one sunken." Hwasin: "I bet you do lol."
He was Broadcasting PGL Season 2 ,i think a lot of ppl here was watching him from Pplive
I'll do a quick rundown of this article:
Basically he did a quick recap of the BO5 series, stating certain things, or lack thereof, as being fishy (no early-game scouting, 1 sunkens to a m&m push, etc.). He mentioned seeing "center barrack" in their game4 pre-game chatting, and that's when he realized that this is an "exhibition" and not the real deal.
He also said in the closing paragraph how he didn't wanna tell the crowd what was happening cus, frankly, it's difficult to have to break the news to a crowd of adoring fans. He said he finally came out with it cus 1.) alot of people saw their 1st-person view, and 2.) he was angered by the fact that afterwards people were discussing a "falsified" series with a lot of fanfare and excitement. That and Hwasin used the illegal "gas geyser bug" on JayStar knowing that it's banned by the Korean tournaments.
He concluded by saying that all in all, he felt everyone did a good job organizing the event, and that he hopes the viewing public will continue to support IEST and the Chinese StarCraft scene.
On October 22 2007 16:12 HonestTea wrote: Quotes from the players from FiFo article:
Calm: "It was a mind trick, I was saying that even if I play like that I could still win, it was a taunt. I didn't expect it to cause this kind of misunderstanding."
Hwasin: "I played along with his messages but chat like that happens every game [during practice]. The one thing I didn't want was for the games to go long. So I attacked early with the thought that, if it works great, if not, then Calm wins so great."
Coach of STX: "Why would we fix a match when it doesn't matter who wins? I don't know where this controversy came from. What happened was two teammates with little experience playing in overseas tournaments were playing light-heartedly.
On October 22 2007 16:11 KissBlade wrote: I don't see what more evidence do they need? The screenshots matches /exactly/. Also from the sounds of things, it sounded already like they acknowledge that the things said were probably what their strats were going into game but yet they expect us to believe that they were trying to mentally psych the other person out? That's just ridiculous and from the tone of things sounds like they're covering their behind. You don't deny something by saying "oh it's not true but just in case it's true, here's another excuse to throw at you".
U ever play a game and said that you're going to fast pool someone, only to expand instead?
I don't really care about what the truth is because it doesn't matter. Not right now anyway.
He was Broadcasting PGL Season 2 ,i think a lot of ppl here was watching him from Pplive
I'll do a quick rundown of this article:
Basically he did a quick recap of the BO5 series, stating certain things, or lack thereof, as being fishy (no early-game scouting, 1 sunkens to a m&m push, etc.). He mentioned seeing "center barrack" in their game4 pre-game chatting, and that's when he realized that this is an "exhibition" and not the real deal.
He also said in the closing paragraph how he didn't wanna tell the crowd what was happening cus, frankly, it's difficult to have to break the news to a crowd of adoring fans. He said he finally came out with it cus 1.) alot of people saw their 1st-person view, and 2.) he was angered by the fact that afterwards people were discussing a "falsified" series with a lot of fanfare and excitement. That and Hwasin used the illegal "gas geyser bug" on JayStar knowing that it's banned by the Korean tournaments.
He concluded by saying that all in all, he felt everyone did a good job organizing the event, and that he hopes the viewing public will continue to support IEST and the Chinese StarCraft scene.
I don't think the this broadcaster's words could take us further disproving the so called "mind game theory". His prediction is only based on the chat appeared in first person views which is no different from that of Andy. Both of them could only assume the meanings of the chat because they are actually written in Korean language. Still the "mind game theory" remains questionable given that the chat before the 4th and 5th game matches the actual opening builds in both games.
He was Broadcasting PGL Season 2 ,i think a lot of ppl here was watching him from Pplive
I'll do a quick rundown of this article:
Basically he did a quick recap of the BO5 series, stating certain things, or lack thereof, as being fishy (no early-game scouting, 1 sunkens to a m&m push, etc.). He mentioned seeing "center barrack" in their game4 pre-game chatting, and that's when he realized that this is an "exhibition" and not the real deal.
He also said in the closing paragraph how he didn't wanna tell the crowd what was happening cus, frankly, it's difficult to have to break the news to a crowd of adoring fans. He said he finally came out with it cus 1.) alot of people saw their 1st-person view, and 2.) he was angered by the fact that afterwards people were discussing a "falsified" series with a lot of fanfare and excitement. That and Hwasin used the illegal "gas geyser bug" on JayStar knowing that it's banned by the Korean tournaments.
He concluded by saying that all in all, he felt everyone did a good job organizing the event, and that he hopes the viewing public will continue to support IEST and the Chinese StarCraft scene.
I don't think the this broadcaster's words could take us further in disproving the somewhat "mind game theory". His prediction is only based on the chat appeared in first person views which is no different from that of Andy. Both of them could only assume the meanings of the chat because they are actually written in Korean language. Still the "mind game theory" remains questionable given that the chat before the 4th and 5th game match the actual opening builds in both games.
Dude, read this thread.
"Center barrack" and "All drone 1 sunken" are not korean.
He was Broadcasting PGL Season 2 ,i think a lot of ppl here was watching him from Pplive
I'll do a quick rundown of this article:
Basically he did a quick recap of the BO5 series, stating certain things, or lack thereof, as being fishy (no early-game scouting, 1 sunkens to a m&m push, etc.). He mentioned seeing "center barrack" in their game4 pre-game chatting, and that's when he realized that this is an "exhibition" and not the real deal.
He also said in the closing paragraph how he didn't wanna tell the crowd what was happening cus, frankly, it's difficult to have to break the news to a crowd of adoring fans. He said he finally came out with it cus 1.) alot of people saw their 1st-person view, and 2.) he was angered by the fact that afterwards people were discussing a "falsified" series with a lot of fanfare and excitement. That and Hwasin used the illegal "gas geyser bug" on JayStar knowing that it's banned by the Korean tournaments.
He concluded by saying that all in all, he felt everyone did a good job organizing the event, and that he hopes the viewing public will continue to support IEST and the Chinese StarCraft scene.
I don't think the this broadcaster's words could take us further in disproving the somewhat "mind game theory". His prediction is only based on the chat appeared in first person views which is no different from that of Andy. Both of them could only assume the meanings of the chat because they are actually written in Korean language. Still the "mind game theory" remains questionable given that the chat before the 4th and 5th game match the actual opening builds in both games.
Dude, read this thread.
"Center barrack" and "All drone 1 sunken" are not korean.
Ofcourse I know that is not Korean. I meant by that they could not see if it is the part of the mind game.
"center barrack" "me all drone 1 sunk", and then what do you know thats exactly what happens in the game. Well obviously its a fucking mind game. /sarcasm off
On October 22 2007 17:18 HaiVan wrote: "center barrack" "me all drone 1 sunk", and then what do you know thats exactly what happens in the game. Well obviously its a fucking mind game. /sarcasm off
Both Hwasin and Calm said its a part of the mind game but its acutally sad to see how the chat and the game matches up.
download Hwasin vs Calm IEST FINALS 4th game Hwasin FPVOD clip. shffule to 9Min34Sec " All drone 1 sunken""Center barrack" What the heck! Players were just reviewing 4th game while await 5th game @python starts
On October 22 2007 17:29 starscrapper wrote: download Hwasin vs Calm IEST FINALS 4th game Hwasin FPVOD clip. shffule to 9Min34Sec " All drone 1 sunken""Center barrack" What the heck! Players were just reviewing 4th game while await 5th game @python starts
On October 22 2007 17:29 starscrapper wrote: download Hwasin vs Calm IEST FINALS 4th game Hwasin FPVOD clip. shffule to 9Min34Sec " All drone 1 sunken""Center barrack" What the heck! Players were just reviewing 4th game while await 5th game @python starts
close this thread and sin no more..............
hmmm we were so focus on the text that we forgot such important fact.
On October 22 2007 17:29 starscrapper wrote: download Hwasin vs Calm IEST FINALS 4th game Hwasin FPVOD clip. shffule to 9Min34Sec " All drone 1 sunken""Center barrack" What the heck! Players were just reviewing 4th game while await 5th game @python starts
close this thread and sin no more..............
On October 22 2007 17:47 FoBBish wrote: hmmm we were so focus on the text that we forgot such important fact.
truly, the conversations took after fourth game.
lol, did you guys even watch the games?
The 9min34sec thing is inbedded youtube counting backwards, it's actually 17 secs into the video which is BEFORE game 4. And center barrack 12pool is game4, all drone 1 sunken vs mmf is game5.
I don't even know why some of you are in here for, so obviously clueless
It's all there on page 16, the cold hard evidence...
This is getting retarded:
On October 22 2007 18:06 starscrapper wrote: abusers shut up and sin no more just download the FLV file whatch left side of the screen 9Min 34Sec "5 SET @PYTHON STARS IN X secs" count down
5th set only goes to 8min8sec, the game isn't even 8 min, it's like 6 and half min!
go to 9 20 mark in youtube video. This is an image I captured from a non-youtube version of it (which is slightly higher text quality, I think). I realize it's not exactly proof, but I think you can make out (relatively) well the "2sunken no ring" at the far bottom right
how about you go here "http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?currentpage=1&topic_id=61225" and check my post +time with the time of the suspicious game. ull see they match.
go to 9 20 mark in youtube video. This is an image I captured from a non-youtube version of it (which is slightly higher text quality, I think). I realize it's not exactly proof, but I think you can make out (relatively) well the "2sunken no ring" at the far bottom right
4th game BEFORE the match Calm says: "center barrack 12pool." 4th game: center barrack 12pool. 4th game AFTER the match, before 5th game, Calm says: "all drone 1 sunken" 5th game: mmf >>>>>>> all drone 1 sunken
The 4th video continue into the 5th game pre-game chatroom. Jesus this is remedial
alright you are right but for 5th game... there wasnt just one sunken, 3 of them were in process... you cannot really conclude from that all drone 1 sunken comment.
You know what, I'm done for the night. I'm disgusted by your inability to see what is right in front of you.
If 3 other creep colonies are still morphing, then wouldn't that make it "mmf >>>>>>> all drone 1 sunken" cus marines only had to fight against a grand-spanking total of 1 sunken colony???????
whatever you believe, it's over, at least in Korea (cuz Boxer is on TV today) Some are still doubting, but majority of people take Fifo's article as a truth and believe players are just not serious and jokes(because they are teammates) They believe that players are just careless to joke mind tricks in a foreign league.
Most significantly, Korean HEARD Andy's 2002 world cup word and it makes Korean people to believe Chienese manipulated this controversy intended for a bad purpose.
I'm not sure which one is true. but Andy should've been careful when he tried to persuade people.
Believe in your "chinese conspiracy" theories all you want, teamliquid.net knows the truth. Thankfully this is an international community and mostly free of national bias.
one thing i can figure from the provocative allegation is apparently some chinese people got pissed in a "decent" worldly competition sponsored all by chinese broadcasts and companies where the final of which was staged just for two korean players.
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote: I will be brutally honest.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
if this is true korea is not only showing as starcraft community but also as nation their own shortcomings. and this really not something to be proud of
On October 22 2007 07:33 Letmelose wrote: I will be brutally honest.
Korean players don\'t care. I seriously doubt Korean communities will care. Sad, but true.
What Korean communities do care about is top players like Hwashin not straining himself too hard and getting easy cash, most of all not damaging his chances in the vastly more important Korean leagues.
What foreign communities like this care about is Korean gamers doing what they were paid and invited over to do: wow non-Korean audiences with their out of the world skills, and showing respect to their worthy foreign opponents.
But the thing is, doing what the foreign communities want takes hours of practice beforehand, some serious concentration and research on their opponents (how can you show respect to some amateur you\'ve never heard about?). That\'s too much for these kids. They just want to take a break from their rigorous schedule and play half-assed against their opponents they know nothing about and don\'t care to know about whilst having fun experience abroad, and getting richer for the experience. They don\'t come to play against foreigners, they come to win against foreigners and not spend to much energy so that they can go back to their busy schedule unscathed.
It\'s impossible to recreate their level of play (and sportsmanship) that they show in the Korean leagues because because the stakes are so different: one league requires you to use every ounce of wit and skill you\'ve got (creating strong impressions on the fans are neccessary also), the other you can throw away matches, come to the matches unprepared and 80% of the time they\'ll still rape the opponent silly. They\'re more worried about the MSL quarter finals, or the upcoming proleague match they\'re going to have to do 2 days later.
It\'s unfair to the opponents, the audiences and those who arranged the competition, but it\'s not going to change.
What happens if they are banned from foreign tournaments for this level of disrespect? A lot of Korean fans will get what they want. Because this is what some of us think: top gamers have no time nor the energy to waste going abroad and playing against players that are worse than online practice students (and they\'re way down the hierachy).
The times where top players from each nation gathered to test their skill and sportsmanship are long gone. Korean players play disrespectfully because, well, the difference IS that big. Who cares if some foreign \'gosu\' gets pissed because you tossed a game against him instead of giving him the chance to play the game of his lifetime? Not the gamers, not their followers who\'ll only care whether Korea got 1,2,3. And on the other side, foreign players are busy making their excuses before the matches start so that their ego doesn\'t get crushed. Things are not what it used to be. It\'s sad to see foreign community hurt like this... and even sadder it\'ll go unnoticed in Korea.
Maybe this is the day Starcraft truly dies in non-Korean nations.
if this is true korea is not only showing as starcraft community but also as nation their own shortcomings. and this really not something to be proud of
I was stating my thoughts on what is. I actually was wrong on the Korean communities not caring. I temporarily oversaw how sensitive Koreans are to foreign criticism in general.
Like I said, these were what I thought were the facts. Nothing to be proud of? No shit.
On October 22 2007 09:10 lostman wrote: Not that I condone their actions, but I think most people in this thread are overreacting a tad.
Firstly, look at Hwasin's condition, flying back and forth over the past 3 days while playing non stop, obviously he is going to be tired at the end of it - especially because its a foreigner tournament and they are guarenteed 1st/2nd, how can u blame him for wanting to end the games quickly? Once again i'm not saying his actions correct or even justified...but just put yourself in his shoes for a second, and also consider what Letmelose was saying about how koreans really dont care much for foreigner tournaments.
the best thing for hwasin is not to go then, but no, he saw that money in it, thats why he went , for money
koreans (especially the ones from the same team) are like workers of the overmind. They cant fight each other, they fight the enemies like the Borg does. Once they assimilate you, and they have no enemies left, they will not turn on each other. there's no reason for it in their minds, they've accomplished their goal, served the overmind. They're not gonna waste energy without a good reason.
On October 22 2007 19:47 Manatea wrote: whatever you believe, it's over, at least in Korea (cuz Boxer is on TV today) Some are still doubting, but majority of people take Fifo's article as a truth and believe players are just not serious and jokes(because they are teammates) They believe that players are just careless to joke mind tricks in a foreign league.
Most significantly, Korean HEARD Andy's 2002 world cup word and it makes Korean people to believe Chienese manipulated this controversy intended for a bad purpose.
I'm not sure which one is true. but Andy should've been careful when he tried to persuade people.
If IEST and other international competitions ban the 2 players (which they should), then it'll be brought up again and everyone can see what they did. And not just stopping them from competing, I mean making a full announcement about it. Rigging games is probably the worst possible offense in any kind of competition, worse than 1 person cheating.
yeah i saw this live too... im z user and i wanted to watch calms fpv. unfortunately i just found out about the fpview channels after game 3, so all i saw was game 4 and 5. And yeah i was pretty irritated by the comments and thought about them fixing it, but kinda forgot about it cus i couldnt see hwasins build (u gotta note here that Calm just refused to scout). Then suddenly a bunch of m&ms come out of nowhere and he just gets raped. It was disappointing as hell when u prepare to watch a progamer zvt First person live. But yeah, the games were definitely arranged, i thought about it the moment i saw it in calms fpview and now that its brought up again im 100% sure the games were arranged. sux but it doesnt come as a shock to me. sadly as others pointed out, korean progamers are not exactly famous for their great sportsmanship in international tourneys.
this chinese dude being so jealous that 2 koreans were in the the final of a tournament which was hosted by china...hilarious.
what calm and hwasin did, it's the same thing what hwasin and maix did. they chatted and challenged each other. you could also accuse maix of fixing game, he said in game to hwasin "come on". and 1min later hwasin run over him easily.
On October 22 2007 21:45 Honk2000 wrote: this chinese dude being so jealous that 2 koreans were in the the final of a tournament which was hosted by china...hilarious.
what calm and hwasin did, it's the same thing what hwasin and maix did. they chatted and challenged each other. you could also accuse maix of fixing game, he said in game to hwasin "come on". and 1min later hwasin run over him easily.
"come on" and "center barrack 12pool" are completely different. Please stop being an idiot.
Being jealous? I think it is quite apparent that the games were fixed. Many people saw the chat while it happened (PPLive) and the videos that are out now is solid evidence that Calm was telling Hwasin exactly what he was doing, and told Hwasin how to attack.
edit: apparently, I haven't been reading the whole thread yet...so I'm not sure if the article post had been posted yet. So yeah, I posted it anyway. Ciao for now Guys!
Ok my head hurts now. After about ten pages since i last posted this topic has gone hurricane. Not only did you guys had \"no time\" to move the files to a decent server, you let the public make up their own mind about this by not providing solid proof. Now it seems to late...
As usual things will move on and all that\'s left is a wrong feeling in your stomach. And once again it disturbs me how some guys wasted my time with reading pages about other sport events with fixed games and racism.
It\'s not the jokes, i did it to, it\'s ok. But if you are acctualy serious, you got to keep your mind togheter. Keep the discussion calm and list all the facts togheter in one post. Anything else will lead to confusion and, because this is the internet, to escalation.
How am i as a outsider supposed to react to something like this? If there\'s a accusation nothing more than the truth is important. Everything else just does not matter.
And. I read that some people posted that it\'s not possible to have such a tourney without inviting koreans. At some point you need to decide what kind of tourney you wan\'t to be. The truth is koreans are better at this game than all of your \"local\" players. Thus it might appear like a unfinished dinner if you leave the koreans out. But sometimes you have to play in your own league first, build up your own infastructure to be competitive later on. And at some point as we know, koreans did the same.
I as a starcraft fan appriciate what you chinese people are doing. And i wish for you all the success you need. But don\'t fool yourself into believing that you can\'t stand on your own feet when it comes to something like this. Because after all, you give money away to people that honestly don\'t really care what goes around their borders in starcraft. And this is not fair to all the people who help building this up and of course it\'s not fair to all the people who are whatching this
in PGR, majority of people seems to believe that this really was a mental trick, but still this chatting looks suspicious and the players were irresposible and not careful about it. As well, the attitude of progamers towards insignificant foreign tourney should be changed.
pgr is one of the biggest sc commynity in korea. Tends to have older fans.
and btw, some suggested ring is not ling(zergling) but rather bunkering. I am not sure bunkering is a proper english but that's what koreans call it. (building bunker right in front of zerg base with one or two marines)
Guys, just stop hating the Koreans and just think for a while.
Why would they rig it? If they were really planned it out it would be from the start, not starting from the fourth game. and if Calm planned to win he coul've lost easily faking it.
Koreans do that in WCG, they don't talk to the foreign gamers and say like "hey, you do 12 pool, i do 8 barrack."
The chat here was clearly a mental trick. I don't know what you have against Hwasin and Calm, but I personally believe them.
As for how the game went? It's not so awkward, to be honest. Most terrans these days do 8 barrack - double. or barrack - double command. Especially when its progamer vs progamer.
I would'nt be too surprised if Calm assumed Hwasin did double.
On October 22 2007 23:13 samsammy wrote: Guys, just stop hating the Koreans and just think for a while.
What has the fact that they are both Koreans has to do with this?
Why would they rig it?
Just because their motive can't be explained doesn't mean it didn't happen. Anyway, a clear motive would be that Hwasin is their star player and that he was tired from hopping onto plane to play in China, then back to Korea next day and then immediately to China again.
Often in sports there is a hierarchy and teams fix the results. It has nothing to do with them being Korean or not.
YES hwasin was tired. But he could still and the game, without rigging the game. There is no heirarchy between Hwasin and Calm. Don't make a drama.
You guys are making ridiculous stories out of shallow evidence. It's based on pure instinct. It's not me who's supposed to get real. It's you guys.
If you want to find it, you can make any game, (or most of em) artificial and rigged up. There is nothing weird for that screenshot to be a joke.
There was no reason for Calm to lose. It wouldn't matter to the STX staff who would win. If they really wanted to win they would've made Sheis lose (He did at the last moment), but if you've seen the games they were damn close. (And if you didn't notice, hwasin 8 barracked Sheis and killed him. Was that rigged? No.)
The STX team is no demon or dictator who controls the players. Calm and Hwasin are close friends, and if Hwasin is kind enough to share the money, he can. Stop this nonsense.
And the center barrack 12 pool part, if you translate it into Korean, and view it as a veteran starcraf gamer, it makes perfect sense in the mind game.
A veteran would know center barrack > 12 pool , not 9 pool or 8 pool. He was saying, Hey I'll do 12 pool you do centerbarrack and come.
Their argument about the mind trick seems pretty legit. All I see is anger among the foreign gamers just trying to make Hwasin and Calm total a-holes.
It's simple phsycology. If you think, 'something is in the game, and I must find something awkward in the play,' you find it. It's like thinking the player who is against you is using maphack, because he's so damn good. In this case it's the reverse. There are games like this that happen in the proscene. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And once again, the motives. The motives are the most important part. IF hwasin was tired and wanted to end the game early, HE could have done it without rigging it. He was tired, and in his interview he said he did want to end the game early. And of course this strategy was more like an all in, and it's not weird for Calm to not realize Hwasin was doing what he told he was really going to do in a mind game.
STX is not a Mafia team, no one gets forced to lose. Both Calm and Hwasin are very respected teammates in the team. Every team is a very tightly knit community.
특히 STX 김은동 감독은 "누가 우승해도 상관 없는 경기를 조작하는 경우도 있느냐"며 "왜 이런 논란이 일어났는지 모르겠다"고 반문했다. 김 감독은 "국제 대회 경험이 많지 않은 선수들이 같은 팀 상대를 만나 편하게 경기하다 보니 발생한 일일 뿐"이라고 일축했다.
Part of INterview.
Especially STX Kim Eun Dong coach said "It was a situation where it wouldn't matter who won. So there was no reason to rig the game. I don't understand why there was such a fuss." He added "Because two close players who were in the same team met in an international competition (which they were not used to), I think this happened because they were close and treating eachother too lightly."
The logic behind whispering is perfect. It would be unmannered to say it in public, whether fake or not. Scrolling up and down isn't because he had to 'remember' what he had to do, it was because he was just reading it.
And once again. Where is the evidence? All I see is material possible that can be interpreted in many ways.
It's like looking at a sentence out of a whole paragraph and assuming the point of the paragraph with that one sentence.
I just saw the fourth game. I can't believe you guys are believing that this is rigged. Hwasin did 8 barrack. Calm did twelve pool. After this, Calm did what a zerg player should do. He saved his two droned, searched Hwasin's army. Checked hwasin wasn't making more barracks.
Most likely at the situation Hwasin would make a command center. Calm searches again with his zergling, but too late, marine medic kill. What the hell is awkward about this match.
IEST isn't at all comparable to the top korean leagues. They shouldn't even bother inviting the top players, stuff like this is bound to happen. WCG has to include everyone by principle, the match throwing happens every single year. IEST has a choice of who to invite, just go for the lower-tier koreans who are sure to play for real.
And I give up if you guys don't believe me. I actually never thought the foreign gaming community had so much antagonism and suspicion against the Korean.
If you believe Hwasin is right, everything makes sense. If you believe Hwasin is wrong, everything makes sense.
There is no logic in this accusation. 1st there are no motivations 2nd games 1,2,3 were legit thrid games 4,5 were legit without viewing the whispers.
There was no reason for calm to make more than one or two sunkens. No zerg player would do these days unless he knows the opponent was doing an 'all in.' normally one would assume the terran player take a double. Just think about the fourth game and fifth game. What would a pro do at the situation? Exactly what calm did Do 12 pool. You guys are stupidly innocent if you guys think 'he said he'll do 12 pool and he did, so he rigged it.'
And some of the words and the gameplay doesn't make sense.
The reason that they whispered was because they didn't believe the people could see the fp version. Why wouldn't they clear things up, rather than vaguley talking about what to do?
Why didn't calm whisper to HWasin and say, hey I'm at 11 o clock
On October 23 2007 00:26 samsammy wrote: There is no logic in this accusation 1st there are no motivations -> There are many possible motivations, as said earlier in this thread. 2nd games 1,2,3 were legit -> In a BO5, the last 2 games are games that matter. thrid games 4,5 were legit without viewing the whispers. -> Yes they are perfectly OK, but problem here is WE CAN SEE THE WHISPERS.
Explaining the messages as "mind game" doesn't sound right to me because they played exactly like that. It takes some effort to type the whisper command (the nickname is long and it's in game lobby, they can't copy/paste), it just looks too serious and intentional to me to look like playful harmless fooling around messages.
Anyway it seems Koreans don't care about it now, the only thing us foreign fans can do is to accept it and start boycotting STX from now on.
On October 23 2007 00:14 samsammy wrote: What the hell is awkward about this match.
Could it possibly be the fact that build orders were declared before the game started?
did they declare in the chat who is going to win?
It wasn't declaring, It was playing around.
God you guys are innocent.
what i meant is they didn't say things like "me win you lose" or "me sal sal me gg" they were just talking about build orders and people getting paranoid that the games were therfor rigged it's just ridiculous.
i think op recently discovered pro wrestling is only a show and thinks pro gamers do the same :/
On October 23 2007 00:26 samsammy wrote: There is no logic in this accusation 1st there are no motivations -> There are many possible motivations, as said earlier in this thread. --> I don't believe one to be legit. Like what ? Split the money? Didn't have to rig. 2nd games 1,2,3 were legit -> In a BO5, the last 2 games are games that matter. thrid games 4,5 were legit without viewing the whispers. -> Yes they are perfectly OK, but problem here is WE CAN SEE THE WHISPERS --> And if Hwasin won 3:0, Calm 3:0?.
Explaining the messages as "mind game" doesn't sound right to me because they played exactly like that. It takes some effort to type the whisper command (the nickname is long and it's in game lobby, they can't copy/paste), it just looks too serious and intentional to me to look like playful harmless fooling around messages.
Anyway it seems Koreans don't care about it now, the only thing us foreign fans can do is to accept it and start boycotting STX from now on.
Okay, this is my final. I'll shut up.
The fact that you guys saw the whispers mean that Hwasin thought you guys couldn't see the whispers. I would expect something more than three lines then.
And shit. If they wanted Hwasin to win, Calm coul've done without chatting, riggin, or anything. I'm pretty sure he could trick all of our eyes and lose if he wanted to.
Okay, no more bullshit. If you want to discuss something new, that's fine, such as implications or how this can be avoided in the future.
If you post the same stuff, you will be banned, such as why you don't believe this happened. This is directed at you, samsammy. I'm not trying to bait you into getting banned, but your arguments and tone in this thread are ridiculous. If you don't believe there was foul play, that's great, but don't post about it here any more.
Conversely, we don't need to hear others' theories about why they think there was foul play. It's been discussed to death in the previous 20 pages.
What I found most interesting is that both articles released by FiFo and Fomos referred to THIS VERY THREAD as the start of the controversy. Fomos actually said "the controversy began when someone posted pictures of the chatting screen on the famous foreign website teamliquid". I was like "THAT'S US BITCHES!"
I never meant to be so 'harsh,' but my personality worked like that. I just couldn't help wanting to change to the opinon of people believing that Hwasin and Calm cheated (and so stupidly, too).
I gave it my best, and I guess it didn't work.
But I also do see clearly that this is a dead topic and we have our lives to take care after. So yeah, this is my last post. Uh yeah, don't ban me.
On October 23 2007 00:48 Chill wrote: Okay, no more bullshit. If you want to discuss something new, that's fine, such as implications or how this can be avoided in the future.
If you post the same stuff, you will be banned, such as why you don't believe this happened. This is directed at you, samsammy. I'm not trying to bait you into getting banned, but your arguments and tone in this thread are ridiculous. If you don't believe there was foul play, that's great, but don't post about it here any more.
Conversely, we don't need to hear others' theories about why they think there was foul play. It's been discussed to death in the previous 20 pages.
On October 23 2007 00:26 samsammy wrote: And I give up if you guys don't believe me. I actually never thought the foreign gaming community had so much antagonism and suspicion against the Korean.
Where did you get this from -.- I thought this controversy was about unsportsmanlike behavior of professional gamers in the tournament. That's just happened that all starcraft progamers are Koreans, but that has nothing to do with this situation. Those who see it as China vs Korea or whatnot are not very smart people in my opinion.
On October 23 2007 00:26 samsammy wrote: And I give up if you guys don't believe me. I actually never thought the foreign gaming community had so much antagonism and suspicion against the Korean.
Where did you get this from -.- I thought this controversy was about unsportsmanlike behavior of professional gamers in the tournament. That's just happened that all starcraft progamers are Koreans, but that has nothing to do with this situation. Those who see it as China vs Korea or whatnot are not very smart people in my opinion.
Yeah seriously, who cares if they are korean or not -_-
Hence the avid following of the korean professional gaming scene. You realize this website is the top foreigner media for commenting/watching/downloading/discussing korean professionals in bw? If there was ever a place you could never make the assumption that a community collectively hates koreans its the website that does said activity and then suppliments it with continual pictures of featureless korean girls in young clothing and photoshopped eyes/lips displaying the breasts they dont have for thousands of drooling white men.
On October 23 2007 00:51 Live2Win wrote: What I found most interesting is that both articles released by FiFo and Fomos referred to THIS VERY THREAD as the start of the controversy. Fomos actually said "the controversy began when someone posted pictures of the chatting screen on the famous foreign website teamliquid". I was like "THAT'S US BITCHES!"
haha. that's some interesting reporting there.
"The controversy over the terrorist bombings started when someone posted pictures of the affair on the famous foreign website al jazeera." well okkkk, cite your source some other way, maybe?
I've never been more embarrassed to be an Asian at the face of the ridiculous amount of racism spewed in this thread between Chinese and Koreans. I'm angry because as a Hwasin fan I feel betrayed by not only his behavior but more importantly his refusal to fess up and just give a simple apology. Regardless of whether you think his actions were justified or not, the fans expected good games. Not "Here's what I'm going to do so you can prepare the exact counter". It's even MORE ridiculous that now it seems Fomos is trying to blame Teamliquid for it when Tl.net has to be one of the best and openminded sources on Proleague SC the foreign scene has. Also Andy's remark about World Cup was completely uncalled for and I hope it's recognized that that's not the perspective of all Chinese.
I hope a mod can go through this whole thread and delete all the racist shit, from both Koreans and Chinese. Most of it was totally irrelevant and it looks terrible for Tlnet, especially if people from other sites might be coming in to scan through the thread.
Korean people please keep us updated on the Korean community's opinion on this matter - to me it seems blatently obvious that this "mind games" thing is nothing but a weak excuse and surely some Koreans can see that as well?
Well the reason for Hwasin and calm to stage wasn't because hwasin had to fly back to Korea to play his games so i doubt that. Otherwise it would be a quick 3-0 but that would look too wtf? lol well im just keeping a open mind. Even tho its very likely hwasin and calm did this and maybe they don't care but all in all the fans paid money to see IEST. You have to respect that, they wanted to see good matches not rigged ones. I hope SC doesn't die outside of Korea. Iest should only have US and China invited players. They shouldn't invite Korean players anymore and incontrol's comment is just retarded that fatass tard needs to quit sc kid's always negative about something even if its nothing. Fat Fuck lay off em donuts rofl
On October 23 2007 00:48 Chill wrote: Okay, no more bullshit. If you want to discuss something new, that's fine, such as implications or how this can be avoided in the future.
If you post the same stuff, you will be banned, such as why you don't believe this happened. This is directed at you, samsammy. I'm not trying to bait you into getting banned, but your arguments and tone in this thread are ridiculous. If you don't believe there was foul play, that's great, but don't post about it here any more.
Conversely, we don't need to hear others' theories about why they think there was foul play. It's been discussed to death in the previous 20 pages.
I think it's better off just locking the thread, rather then banning a bunch of people who just didn't read this far.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/5613/hwasinfaketw4.jpg)
). Makes sense, then... but it's like a big "fuck you" to all spectators of the game who just want to see a good game instead of the two toying around.
. I can do the conversion from .flv to .wmv or whatever youtube wants, but I can't get the .flv. If someone will download the .flv, I'll convert it and upload it to youtube.
![[image loading]](http://img2.dcinside.com/viewimage.php?id=starcraft&no=29bcc427b48377a16fb3dab004c86b2e2608a467cb46f210cfa5d84eecf77fef8279d2f1ee81d198b2ce8375dc9b03827a29c27a04eba91b06fff7de0de44d36aaa1df9a3222df4f7686f2c66f9995eda013e14e59e0875b302e1b04e8c8a9565150504e4ec76e1f6ad5414079e8933ded09424baee7649f&f_no=a67a38ad3c13b45bba3425719a2cf0b6adf91882dc1fdb1fe513df221aa0860ae6bc)
![[image loading]](http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/2287/vlcsnap1792725kw8.png)
![[image loading]](http://dl3.glitter-graphics.net/pub/364/364713ju4k5h26on.gif)
