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On May 20 2023 23:35 MeSaber wrote:
Not anyone can become Tesagi though, it requires insane skills.
Name one godly Terran who plays with low APM and 'chills' as they play.
No one is saying that being a god-tier Terran is easy.
I was watching Snow play Light in a friendly match Bo3 recently.
Snow is arguably the best Protoss in the world currently especially in online matches.
Despite that, he was getting played by Light and lost 1-2.
So even the best Protoss in the world can lose to a god tier Terran as long as that god tier Terran does all the right things.
But as god-tier toss, one would have to play like a perfect machine to avoid millisecond mistakes like stepping on mines and allowing vultures to slip past to perfectly counter every move.
Also having seen Best struggling to deal with vulture harassments by Mind in the latest ASL Ro4, I feel like it's beyond most people's cognitive limit to achieve that level of play, even pro gamers, unless they are super duper on top of their game and playing as if they are betting their life on the line.
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On May 21 2023 00:19 JClave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 23:35 MeSaber wrote:
Not anyone can become Tesagi though, it requires insane skills.
Name one godly Terran who plays with low APM and 'chills' as they play. No one is saying that being a god-tier Terran is easy. I was watching Snow play Light in a friendly match Bo3 recently. Snow is arguably the best Protoss in the world currently especially in online matches. Despite that, he was getting played by Light and lost 1-2. So even the best Protoss in the world can lose to a god tier Terran as long as that god tier Terran does all the right things. But as god-tier toss, one would have to play like a perfect machine to avoid millisecond mistakes like stepping on mines and allowing vultures to slip past to perfectly counter every move. Also having seen Best struggling to deal with vulture harassments by Mind in the latest ASL Ro4, I feel like it's beyond most people's cognitive limit to achieve that level of play, even pro gamers, unless they are super duper on top of their game and playing as if they are betting their life on the line.
2 weeks ago Snow beat light in Ultimate Battle like 7-2 or something like that. Point being these guys trade games and series all the damn time. Their skill levels are super close and it really just depends on who is playing better on that particular day.
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On May 21 2023 00:07 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later. I have heard this many times but still think we don't have enough sample size to conclude that. That said, I can see the rationality behind it. Protoss units in the early to mid game get so much more value than Terran and Zerg's. Imagine having Snow micro Reaver full time in front of Terran's natural while Best macro at home. You can have Light and Royal both trying to defend the Reaver but Tanks don't run faster or shoot further with 2 players. And in PvZ, Corsairs would never die. I think if the game gets to late, Terran and Zerg would start to benefit more or at least equally in team melee than Protoss. But it's hard to imagine they can get there without significantly behind Protoss already. The supply cap goes up in team melee, 200 supply per player who picked that race. It's very difficult to understate how much this helps Protoss, because they are the race that runs into the supply cap first in every matchup.
It's especially impactful in PvT, where Protoss can get up to 300 to 400 supply and just roll over Terran pushes. Protoss can also transition to Carriers after a gateway man midgame without having a period of vulnerability where they're maxed and 36 supply is tied up in Carriers that are under construction or have <4 interceptors.
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On May 21 2023 01:43 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 00:07 TMNT wrote:On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later. I have heard this many times but still think we don't have enough sample size to conclude that. That said, I can see the rationality behind it. Protoss units in the early to mid game get so much more value than Terran and Zerg's. Imagine having Snow micro Reaver full time in front of Terran's natural while Best macro at home. You can have Light and Royal both trying to defend the Reaver but Tanks don't run faster or shoot further with 2 players. And in PvZ, Corsairs would never die. I think if the game gets to late, Terran and Zerg would start to benefit more or at least equally in team melee than Protoss. But it's hard to imagine they can get there without significantly behind Protoss already. The supply cap goes up in team melee, 200 supply per player who picked that race. It's very difficult to understate how much this helps Protoss, because they are the race that runs into the supply cap first in every matchup. It's especially impactful in PvT, where Protoss can get up to 300 to 400 supply and just roll over Terran pushes. Protoss can also transition to Carriers after a gateway man midgame without having a period of vulnerability where they're maxed and 36 supply is tied up in Carriers that are under construction or have <4 interceptors.
Wow really? I always thought team melee is still 200/200, or at least they are able to customize a map so. That makes it almost impossible for Terran in TvP really.
But how can we deal with 400/400 Zerg though...
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On May 21 2023 02:31 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 01:43 Kyadytim wrote:On May 21 2023 00:07 TMNT wrote:On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later. I have heard this many times but still think we don't have enough sample size to conclude that. That said, I can see the rationality behind it. Protoss units in the early to mid game get so much more value than Terran and Zerg's. Imagine having Snow micro Reaver full time in front of Terran's natural while Best macro at home. You can have Light and Royal both trying to defend the Reaver but Tanks don't run faster or shoot further with 2 players. And in PvZ, Corsairs would never die. I think if the game gets to late, Terran and Zerg would start to benefit more or at least equally in team melee than Protoss. But it's hard to imagine they can get there without significantly behind Protoss already. The supply cap goes up in team melee, 200 supply per player who picked that race. It's very difficult to understate how much this helps Protoss, because they are the race that runs into the supply cap first in every matchup. It's especially impactful in PvT, where Protoss can get up to 300 to 400 supply and just roll over Terran pushes. Protoss can also transition to Carriers after a gateway man midgame without having a period of vulnerability where they're maxed and 36 supply is tied up in Carriers that are under construction or have <4 interceptors. Wow really? I always thought team melee is still 200/200, or at least they are able to customize a map so. That makes it almost impossible for Terran in TvP really. But how can we deal with 400/400 Zerg though...
Some1 has to ask the hard questions haha
I've seen all team melee players of high level put down the assimilator instead of losing a drone or losing time with SCV for example... It's a very very different gameplay.
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On May 20 2023 22:56 Bonyth wrote: the god-tier protosses had to be equally or more skilled at the game than their zerg and terran counterparts.
FUCKING FACTS!
thats the exact reason why i say that Bisu is the most skilled progamer in history.
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I honestly don't think the game is super unbalanced but objectively, Protoss is the weakest race. It ain't by a ton, but they are in fact the weakest race. We have 25 years of results at the highest level to look at. You can honestly just look at the last 10 years if you wanted since the earlier days are skewed by players simply not understanding SC like they do now. No matter how you slice it though, Terrans have had the most success and Protoss has had the least success. Any other way to look at it is viewing it through a lens where your own struggles vs Protoss is clouding your judgement to accurately decipher what you're seeing when you watch professional StarCraft.
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On May 21 2023 02:31 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 01:43 Kyadytim wrote:On May 21 2023 00:07 TMNT wrote:On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later. I have heard this many times but still think we don't have enough sample size to conclude that. That said, I can see the rationality behind it. Protoss units in the early to mid game get so much more value than Terran and Zerg's. Imagine having Snow micro Reaver full time in front of Terran's natural while Best macro at home. You can have Light and Royal both trying to defend the Reaver but Tanks don't run faster or shoot further with 2 players. And in PvZ, Corsairs would never die. I think if the game gets to late, Terran and Zerg would start to benefit more or at least equally in team melee than Protoss. But it's hard to imagine they can get there without significantly behind Protoss already. The supply cap goes up in team melee, 200 supply per player who picked that race. It's very difficult to understate how much this helps Protoss, because they are the race that runs into the supply cap first in every matchup. It's especially impactful in PvT, where Protoss can get up to 300 to 400 supply and just roll over Terran pushes. Protoss can also transition to Carriers after a gateway man midgame without having a period of vulnerability where they're maxed and 36 supply is tied up in Carriers that are under construction or have <4 interceptors. Wow really? I always thought team melee is still 200/200, or at least they are able to customize a map so. That makes it almost impossible for Terran in TvP really. But how can we deal with 400/400 Zerg though... I used to play team melee with my BW group, and TvP was pretty impossible. This was pre-2010, with an older understanding of the game, but the Terran trying 140 2-1 pushes or 200 3-2 pushes just got rolled.
TvZ also seemed impossible. Keep in mind this was back when 3-hatch muta was normal, and Valkyries were not used because they didn't work before remastered, but TvZ looked like a Terran nightmare brought to life. The games never made it past Mutalisk harass, because instead of having a group of backup Mutas that got swapped out for injured ones, it was just one group of Mutalisks per player harassing.
As for PvZ, I don't think Zerg ever gets past 200 supply in a game that isn't already completely winning for Zerg. They very rarely get that far in normal games, and Protoss (who would presumably have gotten past 2 bases) would have been able to get past 200 supply way before them and apply much stronger pressure.
This is all ignoring the differences of having 2 or 3 starting workers not counting towards the pop cap and possible race mixing strategies.
Sorry for the derail, but I really enjoy the ways team melee changed the rules of the game.
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and here I am looking at some Artosis vods of him getting crushed by opponents in the early game which makes you think that he is so so dead but somehow his race will out of 1 base go and win the game. I have realized this is the only race that this can happen, that is why everytime I face a Terran on ladder no matter how many SCVs I will kill ,I just know if they hold their 2nd CC its not over because they can just sit in their 2 base, go upgrades and just smash you later in the game. then you have ZvZ which losing 1-2 drones can cost you the whole game. bad examples I know but even in more high skilled player games i.e Bonyth vs mihu BSL finals you can see how Terran in the high levels can crush a protoss player.
On May 20 2023 23:35 MeSaber wrote:
Not anyone can become Tesagi though, it requires insane skills.
Name one godly Terran who plays with low APM and 'chills' as they play.
There is no "chill" as they play Protoss player with low APM that will get results. After watching KwarK's stream yesterday and the way his game style is, the guy is literally taking decisions with a 500APM on what and what not to do in the game. It's amazing what its going on in their heads and because KwarK is speaking them out loud u can really understand how big of a game knowledge you need to have to be able to be S rank with 120-130 APM. its not "chill" at all. It may seem easy to you but trust me it's a lot harder than you think.
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tesagi is obviously real, look at lategame tvz..
z needs to mine about 10x the terran to even compete
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On May 21 2023 14:23 Jumperer wrote:
this thread was made by bias protoss players for bias protoss players to comment on to support the ongoing protoss propaganda. Everyone knows that sc1 protoss is the most overpowered and the easiest race in history of RTS games.The only reason that protoss arn't winning anything is because protoss players are dumber than terran and zerg players and they always have less APM. That's why the entire community call them "ape." Protoss players have been getting carried by their race their whole life like a snobby rich kid so once they get to the higher level they don't know how to compete with the self-made billionaires who had to grind his whole life. PvT is the easiest matchup in the game and protoss can't even win their ez matchup. Watching protoss players complaining about their race is like watching someone with a 4.00 GPA psychology degree complaining that a 2.88 GPA guy with an engineering degree makes more money than him.
Protoss players are all stupid apes that get carried hard by their race with multiple auto-win conditions that other races don't have. DT,recall,arbiter,observer,zealot,dragoon,ht,reaver. They're all broken units. The stupid race is so broken that the top players all get to the highest level with obvious flaws. Some protoss can macro but can micro. Some can macro but cant micro. Some have APM but have no IQ, some have IQ but have no APM. Imagine doing that with any other races, you would never get past D rank. We terran players have to work hard just to build a supply depot and turrets in mineral lines.
S rank protoss is an equivalent of a D rank T/Z player in term of skill level. If all players that are struggling with other race switch their race to protoss, they'll easily be S rank within a week. But they don't do it because of honor, hardwork, and respect. They'll never sell themselves out and pick such a no skill race. It's like bringing a gun to a fistfight.
I once talked to a blizzard employee involved in the development of starcraft who shall remained anonymous, he told me that protoss was originally made for handicapped people and chimpanzees to play on. Because they made the game too hard so in order to appeal to casual gamers, protoss was created.
It's time for the community to rise up and ban protoss players from all tournaments. We want to watch people actually play the game, not apes abusing broken game mechanics
Did Artosis hack your account and post this? lmao
I will just highlight the "We terran players have to work hard just to build a supply depot and turrents in mineral lines".
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Lucky_n00b rakia posting bonanza.
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On May 21 2023 18:22 Nirli wrote:
Lucky_n00b rakia posting bonanza.
I was going to say I've never used this nickname but I'm looking at repamstered.app and I think I have used it... ; D
3 more posts for 69! You can do it!
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On May 21 2023 15:43 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 14:23 Jumperer wrote:
this thread was made by bias protoss players for bias protoss players to comment on to support the ongoing protoss propaganda. Everyone knows that sc1 protoss is the most overpowered and the easiest race in history of RTS games.The only reason that protoss arn't winning anything is because protoss players are dumber than terran and zerg players and they always have less APM. That's why the entire community call them "ape." Protoss players have been getting carried by their race their whole life like a snobby rich kid so once they get to the higher level they don't know how to compete with the self-made billionaires who had to grind his whole life. PvT is the easiest matchup in the game and protoss can't even win their ez matchup. Watching protoss players complaining about their race is like watching someone with a 4.00 GPA psychology degree complaining that a 2.88 GPA guy with an engineering degree makes more money than him.
Protoss players are all stupid apes that get carried hard by their race with multiple auto-win conditions that other races don't have. DT,recall,arbiter,observer,zealot,dragoon,ht,reaver. They're all broken units. The stupid race is so broken that the top players all get to the highest level with obvious flaws. Some protoss can macro but can micro. Some can macro but cant micro. Some have APM but have no IQ, some have IQ but have no APM. Imagine doing that with any other races, you would never get past D rank. We terran players have to work hard just to build a supply depot and turrets in mineral lines.
S rank protoss is an equivalent of a D rank T/Z player in term of skill level. If all players that are struggling with other race switch their race to protoss, they'll easily be S rank within a week. But they don't do it because of honor, hardwork, and respect. They'll never sell themselves out and pick such a no skill race. It's like bringing a gun to a fistfight.
I once talked to a blizzard employee involved in the development of starcraft who shall remained anonymous, he told me that protoss was originally made for handicapped people and chimpanzees to play on. Because they made the game too hard so in order to appeal to casual gamers, protoss was created.
It's time for the community to rise up and ban protoss players from all tournaments. We want to watch people actually play the game, not apes abusing broken game mechanics Did Artosis hack your account and post this? lmao I will just highlight the "We terran players have to work hard just to build a supply depot and turrents in mineral lines".
Looks like a copy-pasta kek
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On May 21 2023 10:22 G5 wrote:
I honestly don't think the game is super unbalanced but objectively, Protoss is the weakest race. It ain't by a ton, but they are in fact the weakest race. We have 25 years of results at the highest level to look at. You can honestly just look at the last 10 years if you wanted since the earlier days are skewed by players simply not understanding SC like they do now. No matter how you slice it though, Terrans have had the most success and Protoss has had the least success. Any other way to look at it is viewing it through a lens where your own struggles vs Protoss is clouding your judgement to accurately decipher what you're seeing when you watch professional StarCraft.
100% agree.
Should be obvious to anyone not insanely biased for whatever reason, tbh. Still mind blowing that it isn't.
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On May 21 2023 10:22 G5 wrote:
I honestly don't think the game is super unbalanced but objectively, Protoss is the weakest race. It ain't by a ton, but they are in fact the weakest race. We have 25 years of results at the highest level to look at. You can honestly just look at the last 10 years if you wanted since the earlier days are skewed by players simply not understanding SC like they do now. No matter how you slice it though, Terrans have had the most success and Protoss has had the least success. Any other way to look at it is viewing it through a lens where your own struggles vs Protoss is clouding your judgement to accurately decipher what you're seeing when you watch professional StarCraft.
Doesn't affect you at lower levels. Clans back then were hard looking for terrans at even B/A rank (fish ladder) because there were no terrans. At highest level, terrans are the strongest i agree with you but you act like you're affected by this. You benefit from this as you can't even tap into that level and protoss is all around the more easier race, along with zerg. Terran gets shafted at lower levels up to 2300-2400 mmr.
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On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
Terran also dominates the Pro gamer talent pool.
This doesn't hold any logic sense, how would you support the idea that Terran players are more skilled other than they win more tournaments.
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On May 21 2023 15:43 ffswowsucks wrote:
Did Artosis hack your account and post this? lmao
I will just highlight the "We terran players have to work hard just to build a supply depot and turrents in mineral lines".
I was thinking the same thing reading this until he misspoke Skill, Honor, Hardwork.
On May 21 2023 14:23 Jumperer wrote:
But they don't do it because of honor, hardwork, and respect.
What a great community!
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My sense is that the back to back TvT finals were contingent on small factors. ASL14 semis both went to game 7. SK was actually ahead in the mid-game, but RoyaL pulled off some incredible moves. Rush didn't win his serious because of Terran dominance either, he isn't even that good at TvZ... Again this season the TvZ went to game 7. And it was a pretty unusual game, which I wouldn't read too much into. We should probably also note that particularly RoyaL had one of the highest levels of TvZ form we've seen in years.
What I agree with is that Protoss have historically been less successful at the top level. I don't think it's stupid to suggest that there could be a balance factor. But we should also bear in mind the contingencies here. The pool of players who can win a premier title is tiny, and simple factors like which race they picked when they were kids are probably weirdly important now. It's probably gonna be impossible to factor this all out.
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EPT
