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The Hard Facts (at least from what I've gathered so far)
 Premier Tournaments
I was going to post this using wrong facts and making wrong conclusions (and even getting into what I thought was a friendly argument, but it was apparently a heated debate? and ended horribly...)
I have done further research and in light of the new facts I will be making new and better conclusions.
The best Terrans in the world finally did it. A HISTORICAL VICTORY! Congratulations.
Back to back victory for the Terran race where both qualifiers are Terran.
I was surprised to find out that this is the first time it happened for Terran!
4 P, 4 Z, 2 T out of 122 tournaments (Savior results included thank you Qikz)
or about 8%
*excluding KCM for lower prize pool for individuals, BSL and local tournaments for China and LATAM because of the skill gap even if the prize pool was Premier level
I hate mirror finals and I hope they never happen again and certainly not back to back whatever the race may be!
In SC2 we can see the following stats for back to back victories of same race finals:
12 Z, 4 T, 2 P out of 303 tournaments
or about 6%
Premier Tournaments
What does it all mean if anything?
I think it means Terrans as a race (Flash not included) have now historically peaked for whatever reason.
I think discussing this is not whining or spamming as few Terrans have suggested.
I think something that happens in ASL for the first time is significant.
It could be that when Flash is not around P and Z don't have to train as hard vs Terran (they think) so Terrans knowing this try even harder + EffOrt not being around either?
It could be the maps. Some of the anti-Terran statistics of the new maps would potentially equalize after awhile?
Or it could be all, none or some of the above and more..
In conclusion
If I'm right and it is finally the time of Tesagi (and now just 1 dominating player) we may be seeing more Terrans in finals, which I don't actually mind as long as it's not TvT.
I hope I'm wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but even pros are talking about Zerg decline which is not reassuring:
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/611185-zergs-doomed-future
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Terran also dominates the Pro gamer talent pool.
With toss, it's always been the same 4 players who could qualify for ASL Ro8 - Snow, Best, Mini and Bisu.
People don't want to play toss when their livelihood depends on the race to win tournaments.
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran.
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On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran.
Mind is not "new and upcoming". He was a legitimate MSL Champion. More so for JYJ (and Royal) but they were members of SKT so definitely not new...
And you meant Fleta - probably the only person who was born in the 2000s playing this game, not Leta the Terran progamer. And yes he knows his shit for not sticking with weak-ass Protoss and switching to the strongest race. See Tossgirl for example.
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On May 20 2023 15:46 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran. Mind is not "new and upcoming". He was a legitimate MSL Champion. More so for JYJ (and Royal) but they were members of SKT so definitely not new...
My point is that Terran had many more ASL contenders and champions. (Total ASL 1st and 2nd places Terrans outnumber toss by like 3 times)
Some used to be Tier 2 (Mind & Jyj being good examples) who now surpassed Tier 1 Terrans in ASL.
There is no such story in the past 10 ASL seasons or so with Protoss because Protoss is too hard at the most elite level especially for players who are not yet at the top.
So with Protoss, it's been the same few people for the past 10 seasons or so. Namely the 4 people I mentioned already.
So you agree Protoss is objectively a weaker race at the most elite level?
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From statistics point of view, there are the most protoss players (40% + i believe?), yet they are underrepresented at the highest level. If it doesn't hint you that protoss is the weakest at the top, then i dont know what will.
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On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
Terran also dominates the Pro gamer talent pool.
With toss, it's always been the same 4 players who could qualify for ASL Ro8 - Snow, Best, Mini and Bisu.
People don't want to play toss when their livelihood depends on the race to win tournaments.
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran.
Terran also have BishOp, Protoss have Horang2 and Zerg have DDasik. Probably will be a long time before those can make it to the finals... If they even stick around that long.
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I clicked on thread and realized it was lucky noob posting
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On May 20 2023 17:58 JClave wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 15:46 TMNT wrote:On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran. Mind is not "new and upcoming". He was a legitimate MSL Champion. More so for JYJ (and Royal) but they were members of SKT so definitely not new... My point is that Terran had many more ASL contenders and champions. (Total ASL 1st and 2nd places Terrans outnumber toss by like 3 times) Some used to be Tier 2 (Mind & Jyj being good examples) who now surpassed Tier 1 Terrans in ASL. There is no such story in the past 10 ASL seasons or so with Protoss because Protoss is too hard at the most elite level especially for players who are not yet at the top. So with Protoss, it's been the same few people for the past 10 seasons or so. Namely the 4 people I mentioned already.
So you agree Protoss is objectively a weaker race at the most elite level?
Yeah me and I think most of the community by now have agreed/realized/finally accepted that Protoss is the weakest race at elite levels (and certainly at ASL level).
To argue that Terran is the strongest is harder though, because Terran supporters and Flash supporters would find it hard to accept.
Someone made a post on reddit a while ago saying that out of the top 10 Terrans in the modern era, 9 have made finals/ been champions. For Protoss equivalent, that would mean Horang2 making into ASL finals. Could you imagine that?
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On May 20 2023 19:43 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 10:08 JClave wrote:
Terran also dominates the Pro gamer talent pool.
With toss, it's always been the same 4 players who could qualify for ASL Ro8 - Snow, Best, Mini and Bisu.
People don't want to play toss when their livelihood depends on the race to win tournaments.
There's no new and upcoming pro gamer who is a toss who could be a contender for ASL finalist like Mind and Jyj.
There was Leta, one of the youngest newcomer and a former student of Snow but he switched from toss and Terran. Terran also have BishOp, Protoss have Horang2 and Zerg have DDasik. Probably will be a long time before those can make it to the finals... If they even stick around that long.
Bishop and Ddasik maybe. But Horang2 lol, he's ex progamer (not that good anyway) who already retired and became variety streamer.
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On May 20 2023 19:36 Bonyth wrote:
From statistics point of view, there are the most protoss players (40% + i believe?), yet they are underrepresented at the highest level. If it doesn't hint you that protoss is the weakest at the top, then i dont know what will.
Rough count of First places I counted in Premier tournaments: 27 P, 45 Z, 48 T.
Rough count of Second places in Premier tournaments: 38 T, 41 P, 46 Z.
https://star.cono.kr/statistics
According to the website it says 35% are P, 33% Z and 32% T. But IDK what the period is. I think it just shows the latest for the year.
The Sponbbang goes back to 2017 still not fully historical but better. I like how google translate just puts toss and with lower case too kek... It says excluding kinship war which I presume means excluding race wars? Zerg and Protoss virtually tied.
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"Is this the age of Tesagi?"
"Always was."
*astronaut pointing a gun meme*
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On May 20 2023 20:57 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
"Is this the age of Tesagi?"
"Always was."
*astronaut pointing a gun meme*
Kek. And yet I am shocked they just peaked with 2 in a row TvT finals.
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On May 20 2023 20:25 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:https://star.cono.kr/statisticsAccording to the website it says 35% are P, 33% Z and 32% T. But IDK what the period is. I think it just shows the latest for the year.
I don't agree with looking at S rank only. My whole point was about protoss having the most players and despite that the fewest rose to champion / god-tier player. Read: the god-tier protosses had to be equally or more skilled at the game than their zerg and terran counterparts.
Of course i cannot neglect possible arguments against this theory, which would be for example: protoss is known for its simplicity, so more casual gamers started with protoss.
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Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later.
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On May 20 2023 22:56 Bonyth wrote:I don't agree with looking at S rank only. My whole point was about protoss having the most players and despite that the fewest rose to champion / god-tier player. Read: the god-tier protosses had to be equally or more skilled at the game than their zerg and terran counterparts. Of course i cannot neglect possible arguments against this theory, which would be for example: protoss is known for its simplicity, so more casual gamers started with protoss.
I even think looking at S rank is too broad! That's why I'm only looking at the results of tournaments. Maybe semi-finals at most. Casual Protoss gamer theory can not apply for career players. I think the argument that the balance at the very top is not really relevant to any1 below holds true.
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On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later.
Haha. Well surely we a game mode or a map can be made for any race to dominate?
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Not anyone can become Tesagi though, it requires insane skills.
Name one godly Terran who plays with low APM and 'chills' as they play.
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On May 20 2023 23:35 MeSaber wrote:
Not anyone can become Tesagi though, it requires insane skills.
Name one godly Terran who plays with low APM and 'chills' as they play.
OFC not... Tesagi is a few % advantage really. I can't even name 1 C rank Terran who just chills kek...
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On May 20 2023 23:14 Soulforged wrote:
Well, P is dominating in team melee games, about as hard as they're failing at championships. Just need a little bit more...okay, not a little, a lot more.
Here's hoping that Mini eventually gets there, his mechanics, insight and dedication are all crazy.
And Terran has always been the only race in the Kespa era where a random unknown player would go on a seasonal tear on pure mechanics and 0 innovation, only to disappear into obscurity later.
I have heard this many times but still think we don't have enough sample size to conclude that.
That said, I can see the rationality behind it. Protoss units in the early to mid game get so much more value than Terran and Zerg's. Imagine having Snow micro Reaver full time in front of Terran's natural while Best macro at home. You can have Light and Royal both trying to defend the Reaver but Tanks don't run faster or shoot further with 2 players. And in PvZ, Corsairs would never die.
I think if the game gets to late, Terran and Zerg would start to benefit more or at least equally in team melee than Protoss. But it's hard to imagine they can get there without significantly behind Protoss already.
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Honestly sorta hate that pretty much entirety of TL discussion is just complaining about race balance still after 20 years of the game being out lol. ASL 14 was super close to be a ZvZ final... In ASL 15 JYJ and Mind were the only Terrans in the Ro8 (and I would argue if JYJ lucked out by dodging Protoss). You can't even really compare current era of BW to past when there's only 2-3 ASLs a year compared to 6 starleagues a year during KESPA (3 OSLs and 3 MSLs). Sometimes games and brackets just shack out the way they do.
Are there way more A-tier Terran players than Zerg and Protoss right now? Yea for sure. I don't think it really has anything to do with map balance or race balance though. And when it comes to ASL I think anything can still happen in a BoX series between the top 15 or so players.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/zXxe7S8.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/EG6zk0B.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/FSp1kN3.png)
