EPTBut zvz games always look boring—with only two types of units on the battlefield—no one can change it.
Maybe we can do this (or other modify) while not affect zvp/t:
Invalidate the Mutalisk's Glaive Wurm when facing zerg units.
Does PvZ Matchup Need Balancing? - Page 5
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Rovant1c
China72 Posts
But zvz games always look boring—with only two types of units on the battlefield—no one can change it. Maybe we can do this (or other modify) while not affect zvp/t: Invalidate the Mutalisk's Glaive Wurm when facing zerg units. | ||
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NzZJdNf.jpg) | ||
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TMNT
2734 Posts
On October 09 2021 00:59 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Race stats for 2021 on sponbbang. Z>P 53.3%, but T>P 53.5% and T>Z 54.8%, and this is with FlaSh barely being active Its quite apparent for some time that Protoss is the weakest race at the top level. It's evidenced by sponbbang stats. It's evidence by KCM results. And it can be seen from the gameplay point of view, as OP demonstrated in this thread for example. It really baffles me how we have idiots like Artosis ranting on a daily basis about how op Protoss is. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
And yes, ZvZ is broken as hell. Which is such a shame, because it has the most potential of all the mirrors. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On October 09 2021 01:54 Rainalcar wrote: Protoss is by far more underpowered than any other race is potentially overpowered. To not recognise this is delusional. To resort only to maps, which haven't solved anything long term in this regard, has proven to be a failed prospect. And yes, ZvZ is broken as hell. Which is such a shame, because it has the most potential of all the mirrors. The last time they had protoss maps (ASL 5), the top 4 had 3 protosses. | ||
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ToT)MidiaN(
England2183 Posts
On October 09 2021 01:45 TMNT wrote: Its quite apparent for some time that Protoss is the weakest race at the top level. It's evidenced by sponbbang stats. It's evidence by KCM results. And it can be seen from the gameplay point of view, as OP demonstrated in this thread for example. It really baffles me how we have idiots like Artosis ranting on a daily basis about how op Protoss is. Maybe I misinterpret your point, but I wasn't arguing against Protoss being the weakest race at the highest level, infact, I was arguing that they are indeed the weakest. I was also pointing out that Terran is the strongest on paper. We are in a Zerg meta if you look at recent ASL champions, but imo that's more to do with there being more active top level Zerg players and a little bit of variance in results rather than racial imbalance in favour of Zerg. Artosis isn't the only person who believes their race to be the weakest. I think it's pretty common for people to think the other two races are OP when they lose and feel helpless. Besides, let's be honest, we've all felt helpless against both other races when we've been outmatched skill wise. Even some cheeses by "weaker" players have made me feel like the game is broken at times, and I think many people will identify with that and/or with the stuff Artosis says, even if he can be over the top with it. Also the imbalances that exist are not game breaking, this is still a pretty well balanced game on the whole. There have been top level players of every race and it is possible to win ASLs playing any of the races. Also let's be real, the game is 20+ years old, there's no chance of a balance patch happening anyway. I would also add that although Protoss is the weakest race at the very very top level, I think Protoss IS the easiest race to play and actually has the highest winrates on the ladder every season due to that fact. Look at the European scene also, it's dominated by Protoss atm, and probably in the history of BW most of the top Non-Koreans have been Protoss. At levels below the absolute pinnacle, Protoss seems to do extremely well, and to me this is an extremely good argument not to change the balance. The imbalance really only exists at the highest level and skill will largely prevail for the rest of us. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On October 09 2021 02:28 Essbee wrote: The last time they had protoss maps (ASL 5), the top 4 had 3 protosses. Precisely. So we either have P maps which are evidently imbalanced, or we have these "standard" maps that have shown the same imbalance throughout BW history. To me, it says that the balance holy grail through maps does not exist. You cannot fix P blindness in early game via maps. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On October 09 2021 02:49 Rainalcar wrote: Precisely. So we either have P maps which are evidently imbalanced, or we have these "standard" maps that have shown the same imbalance throughout BW history. To me, it says that the balance holy grail through maps does not exist. You cannot fix P blindness in early game via maps. Okay maybe. Let's forget the maps then. How does Bisu have a career 72% winrate vs zerg (kespa era) and 60% (post kespa era, but only spongbbang stats)? If PvZ is so imbalanced at the top, then why does he do extremely well in the matchup? | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
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oxKnu
1181 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:20 nojok wrote: Protoss are underpowered but who cares? It's by far the least entertaining race to watch, always rooting against protoss, unless it saves us from a ZvZ. Protoss is the most popular race in this game. People playing it, people watching it etc... | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in a multi race game like BW. It's common sense because there's various units which add different variables depending on the maps etc. If you wanted perfect balance the game would have to be mirrors only but that would obviously be boring as fuck to watch/play. The reason why BW is the best game ever made is because the difference in balance isn't massive, it's marginal for the game quality that we get to enjoy. On top of that the skill cap is unlimited which allows players to overcome balance issues by putting in the work, which is extremely gratifying to ppl who enjoy competing. Long story short, you're wasting your brain cells thinking about these type of things. Excuses don't work in a game like BW, when you lose it's 100% on you, accept it and move on. If you can't then you're probably better off playing a different game or just being a viewer.. for the sake of your sanity. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:47 TT1 wrote: If you want perfect game balance you need to follow 1v1 sports/games like tennis etc. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in a multi race game like BW. It's common sense because there's various units which add diff variables depending on the maps etc. If you wanted perfect balance the game would have to be mirrors only but that would obviously be boring as fuck to watch/play. The reason why BW is the best game ever made is because the difference in balance isn't massive, it's marginal for the game quality that we get to enjoy. On top of that the skill cap is unlimited which allows players to overcome balance issues. Long story short, you're wasting your brain cells thinking about these type of things. Excuses don't work in a game like BW, when you lose it's 100% on you, accept it. ^ Yes ^ | ||
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oxKnu
1181 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:47 TT1 wrote: when you lose it's 100% on you, accept it and move on. If you can't then you're probably better off playing a different game or just being a viewer. Since this is factually untrue (because this game has a lot of bullshit builds that work at very high rate, randomness and also Terran 3/2 which is unplayable against after a certain point in the game state) I guess everyone should stop playing the game since people that come and beat the odds are so rare (generational in a 20 yr old game, so maybe even less). RIP BW. It's even grimer than we thought.  | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
On October 07 2021 06:57 kidcrash wrote: Maps balance BW, end of story. This is honestly the truth. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:42 oxKnu wrote: Protoss is the most popular race in this game. People playing it, people watching it etc... Absolutely not. ZvT is peak starcraft. | ||
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TMNT
2734 Posts
On October 09 2021 02:38 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Maybe I misinterpret your point, but I wasn't arguing against Protoss being the weakest race at the highest level, infact, I was arguing that they are indeed the weakest. They are indeed. We share the same view. But of course below S rank, Protoss is strongest. Bonyth demonstrates this very precisely with his graph in a recent thread. | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:47 TT1 wrote: If you want perfect balance you need to follow 1v1 sports/games like tennis etc. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in a multi race game like BW. It's common sense because there's various units which add different variables depending on the maps etc. If you wanted perfect balance the game would have to be mirrors only but that would obviously be boring as fuck to watch/play. The reason why BW is the best game ever made is because the difference in balance isn't massive, it's marginal for the game quality that we get to enjoy. On top of that the skill cap is unlimited which allows players to overcome balance issues by putting in the work, which is extremely gratifying to ppl who enjoy competing. Long story short, you're wasting your brain cells thinking about these type of things. Excuses don't work in a game like BW, when you lose it's 100% on you, accept it and move on. If you can't then you're probably better off playing a different game or just being a viewer.. for the sake of your sanity. There are plenty of things I disagree with in this statement but none is higher than "when you lose it's 100% on you". That 100% isn't true with BW and a player as experienced as you should know that. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On October 09 2021 03:11 Essbee wrote: Okay maybe. Let's forget the maps then. How does Bisu have a career 72% winrate vs zerg (kespa era) and 60% (post kespa era, but only spongbbang stats)? If PvZ is so imbalanced at the top, then why does he do extremely well in the matchup? Could you list top 20 players in both Kespa era and post Kespa era in ZvP and PvZ? To see how many Z and P we will find there and in which positions and their winrates. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On October 09 2021 05:43 G5 wrote: There are plenty of things I disagree with in this statement but none is higher than "when you lose it's 100% on you". That 100% isn't true with BW and a player as experienced as you should know that. ok, such as? | ||
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