EPTDoes PvZ Matchup Need Balancing? - Page 7
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:18 Moopower wrote: I know it's situational and dependent on the skill differences of each user. My point being is Protoss has to be playing at a much higher level relative to the zerg to win more consistently due to the game theory options that Protoss and Zerg have against each other. A competent zerg would deny scouting. So if Protoss gets a sneak peek at the hydra bust, then that's zerg's mismicro fail on him, but still he isn't punished heavily for such a high reward type play. If you scout a 4 pool in time, that's a death sentence for the Zerg, if someone scouts a cheese build and blocks it successfully the other player who did the riskier strat gets punished. But Zerg has little to no viable builds that get punished as heavily relative to other match ups. If hydra den gets scouted early, zerg might see that as a smaller setback and then zerg can just do some macro cycles and fake a hydra bust. There are so many avenues and routes zerg can alternatively fall back on, where as the same cannot be said for Protoss. Exactly this. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
1 thing i'll say is this, if you open w/ forge as opposed to 1g zeals it's much harder to scout for hydras. You need to have extremely good probe control with forge openers because you have to keep it alive in z's main for a while, it comes down to a micro/multitask battle basically. With 1g you can pressure with zeals and force Z's lings to move around to get an easy rescout in their main. You really should never die to hydras off of 1g openers because Z's eco is weak due to the amount of lings you force and the ease of being able to re-scout their main. Basically if you open forge you give away map control, if you open 1g you gain map control. If you don't wanna deal with hydras open 1g and work on your execution. You have no reason to die vs hydras off of 1g. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
Queen made 18 lings, forcing Snow to be defensive and yes his core timing was late due to the extra ling pressure, so his corsair would also be late and came out around 6 min mark. But if zerg gets to be aggressive AND still have a hydra bust timing to STILL be aggressive for Protoss with little to no room for scouting for it? That's a bit too much advantage from a game theory perspective. On top of all this, Queen was able to outpace and out macro snow. When Zerg was the one doing all the aggression. How does that make sense? In any other match up, if you go for faster aggression, you by default have chosen to forgo the macro advantage if you don't do enough dmg. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:23 Rainalcar wrote: In that game P just barely scouted the Den vs speedlings. If it hadn't, it would be blind, and that is where the risk/gain for Z in ZvP excels. Another example: P went for Robo in that game. But P actually *doesn't know* that Hydras are coming - Z could switch, and P would not know. In that case, Robo and 2 cannons could be superfluous and putting P behind. The essence of it all is P blindness, but I don't think it can be solved - the only way is to help P with their defenses, i.e. cannons, or weaking the hydra bust. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:30 Moopower wrote: https://youtu.be/8_yoLgrNGP0?t=11836 Queen made 18 lings, forcing Snow to be defensive and yes his core timing was late due to the extra ling pressure, so his corsair would also be late and came out around 6 min mark. But if zerg gets to be aggressive AND still have a hydra bust timing to STILL be aggressive for Protoss with little to no room for scouting for it? That's a bit too much advantage from a game theory perspective. On top of all this, Queen was able to outpace and out macro snow. When Zerg was the one doing all the aggression. How does that make sense? In any other match up, if you go for faster aggression, you by default have chosen to forgo the macro advantage if you don't do enough dmg. Exactly. P is actually close to dying to a bust. And yet, Z can outmacro him later. Risk for Z super low, reward very high. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:30 Moopower wrote: https://youtu.be/8_yoLgrNGP0?t=11836 Queen made 18 lings, forcing Snow to be defensive and yes his core timing was late due to the extra ling pressure, so his corsair would also be late and came out around 6 min mark. But if zerg gets to be aggressive AND still have a hydra bust timing to STILL be aggressive for Protoss with little to no room for scouting for it? That's a bit too much advantage from a game theory perspective. On top of all this, Queen was able to outpace and out macro snow. When Zerg was the one doing all the aggression. How does that make sense? In any other match up, if you go for faster aggression, you by default have chosen to forgo the macro advantage if you don't do enough dmg. This game was a mistake on Snow's end, Zero blind countered his slightly greedy early gas/inbase forge style with heavy lings and gained map control. The problem is he should have never gained map control with his ling opener, Snow wasn't thinking and sent his probe back to his main while the lings were chasing him. There's no reason to make Z's life easy like that. He would have been able to punish Z's no lair followup even harder by skipping SG had he circled back w/ his probe and went for a main base re-scout while Z was pressuring him. That game basically comes down to a failed re-scout (which isn't the end of the world for Snow, it just weakens his lead), it's an execution/multitask mistake. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:31 Rainalcar wrote: Another example: P went for Robo in that game. But P actually *doesn't know* that Hydras are coming - Z could switch, and P would not know. In that case, Robo and 2 cannons could be superfluous and putting P behind. The essence of it all is P blindness, but I don't think it can be solved - the only way is to help P with their defenses, i.e. cannons, or weaking the hydra bust. Yeah like I mentioned in the post, just by increasing hydra upgrade timing a bit or making it more expensive would give protoss a little more time to scout and buy time for hydra busts, making them weaker while not affecting balance at all for the other match ups for zerg. Against Terran it's hardly relevant unless they go into mech, and zerg don't use hydras in ZvZ. I wouldn't want to make cannons stronger or faster, because I would hate to see the cheese options flipped too heavily in protoss favor if cannon rushing behind mineral was a regular thing. Or alternatively make stargate warp in a little faster or corsairs, either or OR both. That would help against muta switches in mid/late game sniping hts, stargate timing doesn't affect PvT that much, carriers are hardly ever a surprise for terran and if they are Terran was so bad they couldn't scan in protoss base or use vultures to mine and get map control if protoss tries to cheese and build somewhere on the map. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:38 TT1 wrote: This game was a mistake on Snow's end, Zero blind countered his slightly greedy early gas/inbase forge style with heavy lings and gained map control. The problem is he should have never gained map control with his ling opener, Snow wasn't thinking and sent his probe back to his main while the lings were chasing him. He would have had been able to punish Z's no lair followup even harder by skipping SG had he circled back w/ his probe and went for a main base re-scout while Z was pressuring him Even if Snow sent back his probe, just like the JD game you showed, it's up to Queen's mistake to allow probe to scout hydra bust. And he didn't sent back his probes for no reason. he had to go straight back otherwise his probe would've died anyways. His lings were almost surrounding it, so any other direction would've meant it would've been trapped and killed. And you do realize that lings are slightly faster than a probe? So the fact that the bottom lings were on top of the hill while the other lings on top zoning the probe to go down, meant there was almost no way for the probe to make it out the way it did unless Snow went through the path of least resistance which was straight back. I mean when you're multitasking, are you saying Protoss has to have the foresight to predict every ling group manuever and stay on top of micro and babysit his units even more? That only further cements the idea that protoss is the race with the least margins for error. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia422 Posts
I would not have corsairs building faster. But a stargate could, slightly. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:44 Moopower wrote: Even if Snow sent back his probe, just like the JD game you showed, it's up to Queen's mistake to allow probe to scout hydra bust. yes but then you force lings back (weakens his push, gives you an opportunity to zeal pressure later on) or you force him to make more lings and weaken his eco, you're still compounding an eco lead also even if you dont get into z's main you can still scout between their nat and 3rd to check what they're making from their eggs/check their drone count etc. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:47 TT1 wrote: yes but then you force lings back (weakens his push, gives you an opportunity to zeal pressure later on) or you force him to make more lings and weaken his eco, you're still compounding an eco lead also even if you dont get into z's main you can still scout between their nat and 3rd to check what they're making from their eggs/check their drone count etc. Not if they go speedlings. Speedling scout denying will prevent protoss from seeing enough, and I know this would delay hydra bust timing but it's not enough. Yes mistakes will be made from both players even pros and they won't make the most optimal unit moments at all times, but the point again is, Protoss has much smaller margin for error. I don't have a game example to show a speedling ex into hydra bust, but the game theory concept is, with speedling denial, Protoss still has to account for 2 very different possibilities, muta or hydra bust. In order to see the 2nd gas you need access to the nat, which speedlings should deny. If you're trying to check for eggs, the only way you could have a unit survive to get a peek is perhaps a zealot, but if zerg makes more speedlings, you'll be bleeding resources by constantly suiciding zealots yourself. So it again equalizes back into zerg's favor any scouting intel you try to take, you'll be on the backfoot. | ||
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TT1
Canada10012 Posts
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 08:52 TT1 wrote: ya but by then i'll have 200/200 carrier reavs so it won't matter So you believe speedling upgrade would delay hydra bust timing enough for protoss to scout with corsair to deny any advantage a hydra bust would give to zerg? I mean just look at the 2nd game between Snow and Queen. Queen did a speedling all in, had just a few drones mining all 3 bases was 15 supply behind at the end of the failed ling bust. STILL was able to even out to a macro game. I mean WTF is that? Protoss has to always juggle between getting so many tech options up between getting an obligatory citadel into templar and also stargate for corsairs. Protoss has to be stretched so thin to do something impactful to trade efficiently against a swarming zerg. Had Snow had less than good micro in plugging up his wall , being able to remake a forge to wall up again right after the lings destroyed the gateway and having probes to support, he would've lost instantly. And now life goes on like nothing unfair happened? Zerg got a free pass on his failure to win with the all-in and was able to comeback. | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
Fact of the matter is ZvP, TvZ, and PvT are like chess. One side is black, one side is white. Sure, one side might be advantaged (unproven a-priori), but complaining about the advantage is senseless when you're not even good enough to exploit it. Better idea is to just get good. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 09:09 ghrur wrote: Gotta say, I agree with TT1 on this point. If you think the game isn't balanced, chances are, you're just not good enough. The best players in the world show us again and again that you can overcome opponents by outplaying them, no matter the matchup. If you're blaming your losses on "imbalance" instead of skill, you're whining. You're talking like ZvP is so Z biased, but then... just switch to Z and prove it. If it's so imbalanced, you'd be able to climb no problem, but chances are, you'll still get destroyed by any P 200 elos above you. Fact of the matter is ZvP, TvZ, and PvT are like chess. One side is black, one side is white. Sure, one side might be advantaged (unproven a-priori), but complaining about the advantage is senseless when you're not even good enough to exploit it. Better idea is to just get good. Gotta say what you've been saying is nothing new and contributes nothing to the discussion. It's the same old saying "Just get gud" You don't know what you're talking about. You offer no rebuttals or reasoning as to why the timings work out the way they do to ensure a fair match up. The core of the argument is since we are playing a competitive game, the game should be as fair as humanly possible. If it isn't balanced, saying it shouldn't change because of how blizzard won't or bc pros won't like it is as biased as they come. In order for a balanced game to exist, you need justifiable risks vs rewards. Each player or race option should be given enough options and opportunities to demonstrate and showcase their differences in skill, not due to race imbalances. If the margins of error for one side is too small relative to other matchups and races, then by definition it's an imbalance. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On October 09 2021 09:09 ghrur wrote: Gotta say, I agree with TT1 on this point. If you think the game isn't balanced, chances are, you're just not good enough. The best players in the world show us again and again that you can overcome opponents by outplaying them, no matter the matchup. If you're blaming your losses on "imbalance" instead of skill, you're whining. You're talking like ZvP is so Z biased, but then... just switch to Z and prove it. If it's so imbalanced, you'd be able to climb no problem, but chances are, you'll still get destroyed by any P 200 elos above you. Fact of the matter is ZvP, TvZ, and PvT are like chess. One side is black, one side is white. Sure, one side might be advantaged (unproven a-priori), but complaining about the advantage is senseless when you're not even good enough to exploit it. Better idea is to just get good. its one thing for kids to be whiny, its much concerning and hilarious when 20-30 year old are whining about the balance of a video game that is not even being supported anymore. | ||
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Moopower
128 Posts
On October 09 2021 09:23 ggsimida wrote: its one thing for kids to be whiny, its much concerning and hilarious when 20-30 year old are whining about the balance of a video game that is not even being supported anymore. Is pointing out a cheating team in a sport or showing how the rules favor one side called "whining"? It only matters whether or not there is merit in the so called "whining" going by your words. So quit with the stupid rhetoric and actually have a rebuttal. | ||
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ggsimida
1148 Posts
On October 09 2021 09:25 Moopower wrote: Is pointing out a cheating team in a sport or showing how the rules favor one side called "whining"? It only matters whether or not there is merit in the so called "whining" going by your words. So quit with the stupid rhetoric and actually have a rebuttal. calm down take a breath and go seek help bro. | ||
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TMNT
3102 Posts
On October 09 2021 09:09 ghrur wrote: Gotta say, I agree with TT1 on this point. If you think the game isn't balanced, chances are, you're just not good enough. The best players in the world show us again and again that you can overcome opponents by outplaying them, no matter the matchup. If you're blaming your losses on "imbalance" instead of skill, you're whining. You're talking like ZvP is so Z biased, but then... just switch to Z and prove it. If it's so imbalanced, you'd be able to climb no problem, but chances are, you'll still get destroyed by any P 200 elos above you. Fact of the matter is ZvP, TvZ, and PvT are like chess. One side is black, one side is white. Sure, one side might be advantaged (unproven a-priori), but complaining about the advantage is senseless when you're not even good enough to exploit it. Better idea is to just get good. People like you really need to get rid of that "get good" argument. If the game is not balanced, it's not balanced. Nothing to do with whether you're good or not. There's a clear difference between "the game isn't balanced from a game theory pov" and "I lose because the game isn't balanced". You're too simple-minded if you think the former statement equals to whining. I remember Mini once played a customized PvT against a female gamer, in which all his units only have 50% of the normal hp. That's as imbalanced as you could ask for, right? He won that game in the end. Does that make that game balanced now? If so, let's reduce 50% the hp of Terran's unit and see how "good" Flash can get lol. I'm sure being the genius he is, he'll still win 4 ASL in that condition. | ||
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