EPT[POLL] PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN
2 new polls on the Blizzard Remastered forum
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
[POLL] PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" | ||
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[AS]Rattus
428 Posts
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Jealous
10287 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:15 Wrath wrote: Not sure why do they even need polls for these requests. If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" Hard no to changing the way resources are spent from me. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Jealous
10287 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:33 Wrath wrote: Interested in hearing your reasoning Jealous. I've played RTS that do this (some that were released practically concurrently with BW), and while it is certainly convenient in some ways, namely that you don't have to do mental calculations as to how much you can spend while the Drone is traveling to the Hatchery location for example, I believe that this is part of what separates one player from another in the context of BW. If one person is constantly missing building cycles or upgrades because they are trying to spend more than they have, that is a limitation of their mental blackboard or their approach to their bank in general, depending on how you view it. There are of course situations in which this is detrimental as well. For example, if you send a Probe to build a Nexus, but suddenly Zerglings appear at your door and you need to start a Cannon in your main. While this convenient method of spending money before the building is placed will on average save new players time and effort, this is a scenario in which it will do the opposite, because the player will have to find the Probe as it is on the way to the Nexus, cancel the build command, and only after that they can place a Cannon in their mineral line to hold the Zerglings. There is a lot that needs to be done in a very short time for a noob in this situation, and adding the need to find the Probe and cancel the building to that list is an active detriment. In short, I believe that this change would be a way to coddle players while removing a facet of management in the game, while at the same time being situationally detrimental. As to whether this facet of the game is an essential part of it, I believe that is where it comes down to opinion. I am of the opinion that changing things that would otherwise be overcome with practice and experience is almost always a detriment to the game, along the lines of MBS and unlimited army control groups. Dumbing down or simplifying the game is simply not an option for me in most cases. I think this was a design decision and not a mistake or shortcoming of the game - AoE2, which was released less than a year later, has this system which you propose in place, if I remember correctly. EDIT: BlueStar raises good points as well. EDIT 2: Another point I want to bring up is the fact that if we made every potential design choice a popular vote poll, then it will to my estimation ALWAYS trend toward simplifying/dumbing down the game. A lot of the people who play BGH or Fastest or UMS don't care about competitive BW, and will be more likely to vote for changes that affect competitive play in either predictably bad or otherwise unpredictable ways. If every person who has played Brood War is given an equal vote in the direction of the game, then before long we will end up with a game that practically plays itself with automining, automacro, MBS, infinite control groups, macros, etc. - the things that would undeniably help noobs have fun with their friends in 30 APM Fastest games because they can now make and control a ton of units with little-to-no effort, but things that will break the game for everyone who enjoys the difficulty of the upper echelons of competition, both for players and viewers alike. Part of the appeal of the game for me and I imagine many others is that unreachable ceiling, that immense stratification that happens at the very top, and finding satisfaction in your progress as you improve. If the game becomes dumbed down and simplified, then that satisfaction will be diminished, and with it the motivation. Just to be clear, I do NOT think that this one change will do that. I think that this entire line of approach to changing the game WILL. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1169 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:33 Wrath wrote: Interested in hearing your reasoning Jealous. - because with the broken path finding of SCBW you may need 5 minutes until a unit goes to the place where the building will be built - because part of the game is to use the time as a resource and sometimes you send few workers at different places to build something - if you immediately subtract the resources you won't be able to send several workers. You will need to send worker and if you don't forget - construct a building. I'm not jealous but such topic is common sense for any not noob SCBW player... | ||
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Lorch
Germany3691 Posts
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Jealous
10287 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:26 Lorch wrote: As long as they don't add worker count to the obs interface I am ok with both changes. I'd be okay with making it toggle-able. Throughout the years we have had tools that do this, Korean leagues that chose to add or remove similar metrics from their obs mode, etc. For example, I forget which leagues this was in specifically, but they would compare income of minerals and gas between the two players, and I don't recall hearing many complaints about that (nor did I find it abhorrent myself). That is basically just a slightly more contextual worker+base count in most cases. Would I want it used in ASL? Probably not. Would I want it for my own obsing of casual/practice games? I would like to have the option, for learning purposes. Let me know your thoughts. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:15 Wrath wrote: Not sure why do they even need polls for these requests. If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" Luckily that kind of pools aren't even needed On June 21 2019 00:29 Jealous wrote: I'd be okay with making it toggle-able. Throughout the years we have had tools that do this, Korean leagues that chose to add or remove similar metrics from their obs mode, etc. For example, I forget which leagues this was in specifically, but they would compare income of minerals and gas between the two players, and I don't recall hearing many complaints about that (nor did I find it abhorrent myself). That is basically just a slightly more contextual worker+base count in most cases. Would I want it used in ASL? Probably not. Would I want it for my own obsing of casual/practice games? I would like to have the option, for learning purposes. Let me know your thoughts. It's a dangerous way to take. The community is not reliable and they might trigger casters and observer to keep the tool and use it all the time. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
And a little bit of a rant: Maybe it's time for TL to jump into 2019, editing posts on the phone is a pain in the a**. Ty | ||
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Moataz
Egypt267 Posts
You know, do you want justice/democracy or you don't want it, vote for your nation destiny. | ||
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Jealous
10287 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:43 AntiHack wrote: It's a dangerous way to take. The community is not reliable and they might trigger casters and observer to keep the tool and use it all the time. I think that the Korean tournament organizers will not be that swayed by the common players' personal preferences for their casual game watching, and will do what they think is best while keeping the history of how BW was presented to audiences in mind, but you're right that the risk is there. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3455 Posts
Against the spending change for the same reasons zealous highlighted. For the two polls, sure, whatever, there are bigger issues, still, years after release | ||
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Jealous
10287 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:00 sM.Zik wrote: Why are they even making these polls if they don't use the result? 2-3 months ago they made a poll for the input bug, I believe 97% we're for, and they never added it into the game. You've been complaining about this in every thread I've seen you in and in every thread you get rational answers/explanations but then you just ignore them and keep complaining all over the place like a habitual Debbie Downer. Why would they implement something that affects the game mid-ladder-season? Also, why do you care so much? Progamers have been playing without this fix for decades. We only had rudimentary work-arounds in our launchers. Why not just take all the time you've spent crying, and invest it into learning how to click properly? It's 1a click 2a click 3a click, not 1a3 clickclick14a clickclickclick 214aclickclickclickclick31a2314a1a click. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:04 Jealous wrote: You've been complaining about this in every thread I've seen you in and in every thread you get rational answers/explanations but then you just ignore them and keep complaining all over the place like a habitual Debbie Downer. Why would they implement something that affects the game mid-ladder-season? Also, why do you care so much? Progamers have been playing without this fix for decades. We only had rudimentary work-arounds in our launchers. Why not just take all the time you've spent crying, and invest it into learning how to click properly? It's 1a click 2a click 3a click, not 1a3 clickclick14a clickclickclick 214aclickclickclickclick31a2314a1a click. Ok first of all I posted in 2 thread about it, yes TWO WHOLE THREAD, definitely ALL over the place right? And the reason I did this is because I know sometimes they read the forums so I want it to be heard. Are you serious about this affecting the game...? It's such a minimal change overall, as you said it doesn't change anything for the progamers, they have pin point accuracy since they played this game 8 hours a day for decades. This is a change aimed for a better and smoother experience for the casual sc players, people like me who sit around 1800 mmr, where few times per games their actions doesn't record because we try to go too fast and it doesn't registered because of a miscalculation of timings in our inputs. We're not talking about a balance or maps change, I don't see any logical reason to wait so long for this, 97% we're for, they tested it in PTR for over a month now. They have been talking about changing this for nearly 4 months, I just don't get why it should be taking that long, that's all. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2550 Posts
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