EPT[POLL] PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN
2 new polls on the Blizzard Remastered forum
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
[POLL] PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" | ||
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:15 Wrath wrote: Not sure why do they even need polls for these requests. If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" Hard no to changing the way resources are spent from me. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:33 Wrath wrote: Interested in hearing your reasoning Jealous. I've played RTS that do this (some that were released practically concurrently with BW), and while it is certainly convenient in some ways, namely that you don't have to do mental calculations as to how much you can spend while the Drone is traveling to the Hatchery location for example, I believe that this is part of what separates one player from another in the context of BW. If one person is constantly missing building cycles or upgrades because they are trying to spend more than they have, that is a limitation of their mental blackboard or their approach to their bank in general, depending on how you view it. There are of course situations in which this is detrimental as well. For example, if you send a Probe to build a Nexus, but suddenly Zerglings appear at your door and you need to start a Cannon in your main. While this convenient method of spending money before the building is placed will on average save new players time and effort, this is a scenario in which it will do the opposite, because the player will have to find the Probe as it is on the way to the Nexus, cancel the build command, and only after that they can place a Cannon in their mineral line to hold the Zerglings. There is a lot that needs to be done in a very short time for a noob in this situation, and adding the need to find the Probe and cancel the building to that list is an active detriment. In short, I believe that this change would be a way to coddle players while removing a facet of management in the game, while at the same time being situationally detrimental. As to whether this facet of the game is an essential part of it, I believe that is where it comes down to opinion. I am of the opinion that changing things that would otherwise be overcome with practice and experience is almost always a detriment to the game, along the lines of MBS and unlimited army control groups. Dumbing down or simplifying the game is simply not an option for me in most cases. I think this was a design decision and not a mistake or shortcoming of the game - AoE2, which was released less than a year later, has this system which you propose in place, if I remember correctly. EDIT: BlueStar raises good points as well. EDIT 2: Another point I want to bring up is the fact that if we made every potential design choice a popular vote poll, then it will to my estimation ALWAYS trend toward simplifying/dumbing down the game. A lot of the people who play BGH or Fastest or UMS don't care about competitive BW, and will be more likely to vote for changes that affect competitive play in either predictably bad or otherwise unpredictable ways. If every person who has played Brood War is given an equal vote in the direction of the game, then before long we will end up with a game that practically plays itself with automining, automacro, MBS, infinite control groups, macros, etc. - the things that would undeniably help noobs have fun with their friends in 30 APM Fastest games because they can now make and control a ton of units with little-to-no effort, but things that will break the game for everyone who enjoys the difficulty of the upper echelons of competition, both for players and viewers alike. Part of the appeal of the game for me and I imagine many others is that unreachable ceiling, that immense stratification that happens at the very top, and finding satisfaction in your progress as you improve. If the game becomes dumbed down and simplified, then that satisfaction will be diminished, and with it the motivation. Just to be clear, I do NOT think that this one change will do that. I think that this entire line of approach to changing the game WILL. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:33 Wrath wrote: Interested in hearing your reasoning Jealous. - because with the broken path finding of SCBW you may need 5 minutes until a unit goes to the place where the building will be built - because part of the game is to use the time as a resource and sometimes you send few workers at different places to build something - if you immediately subtract the resources you won't be able to send several workers. You will need to send worker and if you don't forget - construct a building. I'm not jealous but such topic is common sense for any not noob SCBW player... | ||
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Lorch
Germany3671 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:26 Lorch wrote: As long as they don't add worker count to the obs interface I am ok with both changes. I'd be okay with making it toggle-able. Throughout the years we have had tools that do this, Korean leagues that chose to add or remove similar metrics from their obs mode, etc. For example, I forget which leagues this was in specifically, but they would compare income of minerals and gas between the two players, and I don't recall hearing many complaints about that (nor did I find it abhorrent myself). That is basically just a slightly more contextual worker+base count in most cases. Would I want it used in ASL? Probably not. Would I want it for my own obsing of casual/practice games? I would like to have the option, for learning purposes. Let me know your thoughts. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 20 2019 23:15 Wrath wrote: Not sure why do they even need polls for these requests. If I were to make a poll, it would be: "When making a building, the cost is subtracted from bank when the worker starts making the building.. Would you like to have that changed to have cost subtracted immediately after sending the build command or keep it as it is?" Luckily that kind of pools aren't even needed On June 21 2019 00:29 Jealous wrote: I'd be okay with making it toggle-able. Throughout the years we have had tools that do this, Korean leagues that chose to add or remove similar metrics from their obs mode, etc. For example, I forget which leagues this was in specifically, but they would compare income of minerals and gas between the two players, and I don't recall hearing many complaints about that (nor did I find it abhorrent myself). That is basically just a slightly more contextual worker+base count in most cases. Would I want it used in ASL? Probably not. Would I want it for my own obsing of casual/practice games? I would like to have the option, for learning purposes. Let me know your thoughts. It's a dangerous way to take. The community is not reliable and they might trigger casters and observer to keep the tool and use it all the time. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
And a little bit of a rant: Maybe it's time for TL to jump into 2019, editing posts on the phone is a pain in the a**. Ty | ||
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Moataz
Egypt267 Posts
You know, do you want justice/democracy or you don't want it, vote for your nation destiny. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:43 AntiHack wrote: It's a dangerous way to take. The community is not reliable and they might trigger casters and observer to keep the tool and use it all the time. I think that the Korean tournament organizers will not be that swayed by the common players' personal preferences for their casual game watching, and will do what they think is best while keeping the history of how BW was presented to audiences in mind, but you're right that the risk is there. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3342 Posts
Against the spending change for the same reasons zealous highlighted. For the two polls, sure, whatever, there are bigger issues, still, years after release | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:00 sM.Zik wrote: Why are they even making these polls if they don't use the result? 2-3 months ago they made a poll for the input bug, I believe 97% we're for, and they never added it into the game. You've been complaining about this in every thread I've seen you in and in every thread you get rational answers/explanations but then you just ignore them and keep complaining all over the place like a habitual Debbie Downer. Why would they implement something that affects the game mid-ladder-season? Also, why do you care so much? Progamers have been playing without this fix for decades. We only had rudimentary work-arounds in our launchers. Why not just take all the time you've spent crying, and invest it into learning how to click properly? It's 1a click 2a click 3a click, not 1a3 clickclick14a clickclickclick 214aclickclickclickclick31a2314a1a click. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:04 Jealous wrote: You've been complaining about this in every thread I've seen you in and in every thread you get rational answers/explanations but then you just ignore them and keep complaining all over the place like a habitual Debbie Downer. Why would they implement something that affects the game mid-ladder-season? Also, why do you care so much? Progamers have been playing without this fix for decades. We only had rudimentary work-arounds in our launchers. Why not just take all the time you've spent crying, and invest it into learning how to click properly? It's 1a click 2a click 3a click, not 1a3 clickclick14a clickclickclick 214aclickclickclickclick31a2314a1a click. Ok first of all I posted in 2 thread about it, yes TWO WHOLE THREAD, definitely ALL over the place right? And the reason I did this is because I know sometimes they read the forums so I want it to be heard. Are you serious about this affecting the game...? It's such a minimal change overall, as you said it doesn't change anything for the progamers, they have pin point accuracy since they played this game 8 hours a day for decades. This is a change aimed for a better and smoother experience for the casual sc players, people like me who sit around 1800 mmr, where few times per games their actions doesn't record because we try to go too fast and it doesn't registered because of a miscalculation of timings in our inputs. We're not talking about a balance or maps change, I don't see any logical reason to wait so long for this, 97% we're for, they tested it in PTR for over a month now. They have been talking about changing this for nearly 4 months, I just don't get why it should be taking that long, that's all. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:55 Jealous wrote: I think that the Korean tournament organizers will not be that swayed by the common players' personal preferences for their casual game watching, and will do what they think is best while keeping the history of how BW was presented to audiences in mind, but you're right that the risk is there. but they literally have in-game observer during ASL to drag over workers to count worker count to do quick head math to see how many workers died after vulture harass? How would it make a difference in casting other than making it faster? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:17 jinjin5000 wrote: but they literally have in-game observer drag over workers to count worker count to do quick head math to see how many workers died after vulture harass? How would it make a difference in casting other than making it faster? I only respect the hardcore viewers, who can do the math necessary to watch Brood War themselves. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:00 sM.Zik wrote: Why are they even making these polls if they don't use the result? 2-3 months ago they made a poll for the input bug, I believe 97% we're for, and they never added it into the game. You saying that was scrapped? I thought they were waiting next patch to be implemented lol. | ||
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sM.Zik
Canada2543 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:29 Wrath wrote: You saying that was scrapped? I thought they were waiting next patch to be implemented lol. I don't think it was scrapped, it's just taking a while. We had a patch since this was on the PTR. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:17 jinjin5000 wrote: but they literally have in-game observer drag over workers to count worker count to do quick head math to see how many workers died after vulture harass? How would it make a difference in casting other than making it faster? That is only one unique situation. The main reason, from what I understand, that they have never displayed worker count is because it kills the suspense in terms of whether an opponent can make a comeback, or how all-in they are, etc. It's not about any one interaction. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 21 2019 03:01 Jealous wrote: That is only one unique situation. The main reason, from what I understand, that they have never displayed worker count is because it kills the suspense in terms of whether an opponent can make a comeback, or how all-in they are, etc. It's not about any one interaction. maybe making it visible to only commentator would satisfy this while lessening burden on the casters. The stop-delay between casting is pretty noticeable after the initial AHHHHH screaming while they do math to count workers missing. But the overall thing is these features being missing from replay, which i understand from reading korean forum posts, were present as features on wlauncher which is no longer available as of now. Readding these QoL that were already there for most part as part of "base" game in form of wlauncher would do a lot (along with clan system, ect) | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 21 2019 03:06 jinjin5000 wrote: maybe making it visible to only commentator would satisfy this while lessening burden on the casters. The stop-delay between casting is pretty noticeable after the initial AHHHHH screaming while they do math to count workers missing. But the overall thing is these features being missing from replay, which i understand from reading korean forum posts, were present as features on wlauncher which is no longer available as of now. Readding these QoL that were already there for most part as part of "base" game in form of wlauncher would do a lot (along with clan system, ect) As I said before, I too would like to have these at least as replay options. I think that's practically a no-brainer. Foreigners had it in Chaos launcher as well. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
On June 21 2019 03:18 jinjin5000 wrote: wonder how long it will take to catch up with pre-SCR feature lists on the launchers tho. If every feature needs poll, anything extra would probably be no-go even if its replay/non-game or obs related 20 more years as it seems  | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24326 Posts
On June 21 2019 03:01 Jealous wrote: That is only one unique situation. The main reason, from what I understand, that they have never displayed worker count is because it kills the suspense in terms of whether an opponent can make a comeback, or how all-in they are, etc. It's not about any one interaction. I agree with it, as a non-hardcore BW Guy. I know quite a bit about the game, WC3 too, maybe not quite as much but close to SC2. SC2 I feel there is way too much information available and it spoils my enjoyment of tournaments, as with the odd exception I feel I know who’s going to win way in advance of it happening, but it’s convention now and if a tournament occurred without the obs displaying production tab etc people would probably be complaining a lot if people experimented with a ‘less is actually more’ approach. I don’t think the BW community would push for such things if they were optional, not sure though. | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN. No I've never left with any players, any races. I would like all of players like me. StarCraft is the life, it's not always as good as you want it. You have to accept that. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 21 2019 16:02 bovienchien wrote: WORKER COUNTS IN REPLAYS. Yes PLAYERS LEAVING DURING COUNTDOWN. No I've never left with any players, any races. I would like all of players like me. StarCraft is the life, it's not always as good as you want it. You have to accept that. How the fuck does this make sense? Most time this shit happens people quit and remake | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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Highgamer
1397 Posts
If they wanted a good poll, they ought to ask everyone who plays BW via the Bnet-launcher or via a message with link when you log into a multiplayer realm (like the patch-log-message that shows up 10x every time you log on)... | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On June 21 2019 17:15 Highgamer wrote: Isn't it the real problem that, with these polls on their official site, they don't reach 95% of people who play this game? Because their site offers little to no useful information to an active player 99% of the time? If they wanted a good poll, they ought to ask everyone who plays BW via the Bnet-launcher or via a message when you log into a multiplayer realm (like the patch-log-message that shows up 10x every time you log on)... players would find that annoying | ||
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Highgamer
1397 Posts
Did you even think before writing?.... one vote every 2-3 months.... to people who care about the game (mildly put)? Annoying? In the launcher they could make it so that you can just click it away... Annoying are the constant adds for other blizzard games even if I have SC:BW selected... not polls to help in remastering the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24326 Posts
I’ve played Blizzard games online in some capacity since 1997 or something, I don’t think I’ve ever actually posted on the Bnet forums, I’ve only ever really read them for patch notes the odd time. For WC3 I’ve had wcreplays, SC I’ve had TL etc | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
Let's agree to disagree that blizzard are doing something. | ||
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On June 21 2019 00:49 Moataz wrote: This kind of poll actually underestimates SCR players minds. You know, do you want justice/democracy or you don't want it, vote for your nation destiny. Then you have to be able to tell us which answer to each question is justice or democracy at the very least. I of course have my own opinion regarding both polls and voted for change in both because I believe they would be better than what we have currently. I can't think of any reason not to incorporate worker count into the game right next supply count. Example: worker count/current supply used/current max supply, e.g: 12/16/18 Then again if it really ruins obsing the maybe no worker counts there but I feel like people are speculating a little when it comes to worker counts ruining the suspense? On June 21 2019 02:15 sM.Zik wrote: Ok first of all I posted in 2 thread about it, yes TWO WHOLE THREAD, definitely ALL over the place right? And the reason I did this is because I know sometimes they read the forums so I want it to be heard. Are you serious about this affecting the game...? It's such a minimal change overall, as you said it doesn't change anything for the progamers, they have pin point accuracy since they played this game 8 hours a day for decades. This is a change aimed for a better and smoother experience for the casual sc players, people like me who sit around 1800 mmr, where few times per games their actions doesn't record because we try to go too fast and it doesn't registered because of a miscalculation of timings in our inputs. We're not talking about a balance or maps change, I don't see any logical reason to wait so long for this, 97% we're for, they tested it in PTR for over a month now. They have been talking about changing this for nearly 4 months, I just don't get why it should be taking that long, that's all. Yea but if they fixed it then this guy couldn't s**t on the people that have problems with it anymore?  | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
We have replays for that, don't we? | ||
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kurtisg
2 Posts
On June 21 2019 23:04 outscar wrote: Fuck supply count, fuck worker count, fuck all that extra info when game is LIVE! I wanna watch game, not analyze the shit out of it. Stop fucking turning this game and alienate it with SC2 BS. Add only for reps. Go die of cancer User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On June 21 2019 23:04 outscar wrote: Fuck supply count, fuck worker count, fuck all that extra info when game is LIVE! I wanna watch game, not analyze the shit out of it. Stop fucking turning this game and alienate it with SC2 BS. Add only for reps. I was thinking more for the player himself and reps but if people have a really good reason + maybe examples of why it'd ruin the suspense™ then maybe it doesn't have to be added into observer mode. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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Moataz
Egypt267 Posts
If you want workers' count in SCR single/multiplayer, you can use one of the maps there, all of them has it, thanks Blizzard  , We can do it ourselves!. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
Supply count and shit were still there during Korean casting back when pro scene was around If you watch asl/ksl, observers constantly drag over workers to count missing worker counts and casters do quick maths in Korean cast to count missing workers (especially that best series and mine debak). If they can click on each vulture to count kc before it dies, they do that too. Then theres the whole dragging over workers post damage. What exactly are these posters against when they are infatuated with the supposed """surprise element""" when casters literally manually count these and explain/analyze it for you in Korean cast? I can understand production tab argument since it creates hype when things are tight, but casters literally point out these information(worker damage, eco damage), albeit bit delayed due to manual counting. On June 21 2019 23:04 outscar wrote: Fuck supply count, fuck worker count, fuck all that extra info when game is LIVE! I wanna watch game, not analyze the shit out of it. Stop fucking turning this game and alienate it with SC2 BS. Add only for reps. Korean cast literally have caster responsible for hype and another former progamer caster responsible for analysis. Thats the whole point of casting. Create hype and explain purpose of plays for casuals, creating more hype/anticipation. What are you even watching for if you are against analysis lmao. Fireworks? | ||
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
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seriosity
United States214 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 22 2019 23:42 JonttuTonttu wrote: It's funny how much more the Korean audience seems to be open minded when it comes to StarCraft and potential for *gasp* change for the better. Seems like they are more interested in the game rather than seeing the scene as some sort of hipster elitist club past time or whatever it is for some people, I just can't figure out what some people think the danger is in trying to better some aspects of the game or alternatively offering rational arguments to the contrary based on sound logic, for example by citing examples. Just because people don't think that haphazardly buffing some random unit that OP really likes because it's a floating crab or forcing noobs to play on shit tier maps that have no learning materials associated with them are good ideas doesn't mean that those people are elitists or hipsters or whatever you want to call them. The burden of proof isn't on the people who support the status quo, it is on people who fancy themselves amateur balance patchers or champions of the noobs' plight but don't actually contribute anything beyond a half-baked thread once in a blue moon, or sporting a monotonous post history spent bitching about the status of the game. YOU have to demonstrate that making these changes would attract new players, perhaps by starting a league that only uses those maps and trying to pool people from pub games on Battle.net, or inviting your (hypothetically extant) friends from real life to try out the game and getting feedback from them. YOU have to demonstrate that buffing air crabs will not significantly affect balance - make a custom map, run a tournament for high level foreigners/pros, and analyze from there. YOU have to implement probe counts in a streamed games between high level players (perhaps you can use 1.16 + those tools) and gather viewers and get impressions. And it can't be just "one-and-done" either, you have to actually run it like a study. What I mean by this is, just because you and some other noob played on CrabbingSpirit.scx and neither of you had any qualms about it, doesn't provide any evidence that it is a good change for BW as a whole. In order to disrupt the extant system, one has to provide sufficient evidence for the necessity of doing so. No matter how much you may weigh your theorycrafting and feelgood intentions towards lower level players as actual contributions, at the end of the day you have actually contributed nothing but comical threads and nothing more. It's easy to lay back and talk badly about the "elitists" while doing absolutely nothing besides yabbering on forums or shitposting on Discord. Meanwhile, people are organizing noob-oriented leagues and tournaments, editing liquipedia, casting noob games, running Discords, so on and so forth. Until you become a person who actually does something and isn't all talk/bitching/moaning, don't be surprised that no one takes you seriously and no one cares what your vision for Brood War is. Be the change you want to see. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On June 22 2019 23:42 JonttuTonttu wrote: Well, think of it this way: Starcraft was niche across the west, so it attracted a certain personality type. Then, the game declined gradually as games expanded, like, the map aeon of strife turned into an entire genre. So a lot of casuals leave. The game is pretty small, so people who tend to take things very seriously, repeat things endlessly, fetishize and even worship the game, have an out sized impact on the scene. Not only do they drive out casuals by their attitude and the maps and before match maker, often the lopsided match ups in the scene, they reinforce each other. Elitists meet elitists and it grows. You get leagues where people are 'coached' the game. Practice practice practice. Your right on the money of course, the foreign broodwar scene is inundated with reactionary elitists who scorn all change or innovation. Often you will find they arent even very good players, they just know a couple builds on a couple maps really well...pathological thinking is all the craze here.It's funny how much more the Korean audience seems to be open minded when it comes to StarCraft and potential for *gasp* change for the better. Seems like they are more interested in the game rather than seeing the scene as some sort of hipster elitist club past time or whatever it is for some people, I just can't figure out what some people think the danger is in trying to better some aspects of the game or alternatively offering rational arguments to the contrary based on sound logic, for example by citing examples. You will honestly see people claim the game is perfectly balanced [all while their arguments circularly hinge on the games balance being contingent on changing map variables], or perfect in general. Its a bit of a cult if were honest. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 22 2019 23:42 JonttuTonttu wrote: It's funny how much more the Korean audience seems to be open minded when it comes to StarCraft and potential for *gasp* change for the better. Seems like they are more interested in the game rather than seeing the scene as some sort of hipster elitist club past time or whatever it is for some people, I just can't figure out what some people think the danger is in trying to better some aspects of the game or alternatively offering rational arguments to the contrary based on sound logic, for example by citing examples. ...not really. I dont think majority of koreans really want big changes just some features that would return features back from pre scr. Theres this big talk if balance patches but most dont trust blizzard to do it in timely manner. I mean scr doesn't even have features promised at launch and is still working on 1v1 side. Will balance patch even be readable with this slowness? | ||
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Lopix
2 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On June 23 2019 00:21 Jealous wrote: Just because people don't think that haphazardly buffing some random unit that OP really likes because it's a floating crab or forcing noobs to play on shit tier maps that have no learning materials associated with them are good ideas doesn't mean that those people are elitists or hipsters or whatever you want to call them. The burden of proof isn't on the people who support the status quo, it is on people who fancy themselves amateur balance patchers or champions of the noobs' plight but don't actually contribute anything beyond a half-baked thread once in a blue moon, or sporting a monotonous post history spent bitching about the status of the game. YOU have to demonstrate that making these changes would attract new players, perhaps by starting a league that only uses those maps and trying to pool people from pub games on Battle.net, or inviting your (hypothetically extant) friends from real life to try out the game and getting feedback from them. YOU have to demonstrate that buffing air crabs will not significantly affect balance - make a custom map, run a tournament for high level foreigners/pros, and analyze from there. YOU have to implement probe counts in a streamed games between high level players (perhaps you can use 1.16 + those tools) and gather viewers and get impressions. And it can't be just "one-and-done" either, you have to actually run it like a study. What I mean by this is, just because you and some other noob played on CrabbingSpirit.scx and neither of you had any qualms about it, doesn't provide any evidence that it is a good change for BW as a whole. In order to disrupt the extant system, one has to provide sufficient evidence for the necessity of doing so. No matter how much you may weigh your theorycrafting and feelgood intentions towards lower level players as actual contributions, at the end of the day you have actually contributed nothing but comical threads and nothing more. It's easy to lay back and talk badly about the "elitists" while doing absolutely nothing besides yabbering on forums or shitposting on Discord. Meanwhile, people are organizing noob-oriented leagues and tournaments, editing liquipedia, casting noob games, running Discords, so on and so forth. Until you become a person who actually does something and isn't all talk/bitching/moaning, don't be surprised that no one takes you seriously and no one cares what your vision for Brood War is. Be the change you want to see. Well my argument and response can be summed up as follows: 1. I am contributing in the way I think fits the situation best, i.e. I "bitch" on the forums primarily because I see TL.net and SC:R's forum to a lesser extent as think tanks where I can let people know what I think and collectively butt our wise heads together to ponder about the past, present and future state of Brood War, and less like fan clubs where we come together to one-up eachother on our knowledge of the game or the players involved with it. 2. I am also indirectly trying to contribute by trying to gather support for or present my case for why I think something should be changed (whether or not it includes crabs or not), so that there is a voice, that's loud enough that it can get something passed. The end result, if successful, being that the thing ends up in a future patch or some other place that even you cannot ignore, instead of some UMS map rotting away in the custom game list corner somewhere. A lot of this clearly has to do with perspective, and clearly our perspectives are quite different from oneanother. To you it probably looks like I'm threatening your lifes' work or something, or like I am trying to wreck the abalance/non-balance (I don't know if that's a word but now it is, after all there is no balance but neither is there imbalance, kinda pointless to talk about balance in its traditional meaning in an asymmetrical setting such as SC) to make all the work you've done to improve your skill and standing in rankings pointless. When it comes to this topic I would argue that the reason why for example StarCraft: Brood War is not as popular as say League of Legends or DoTA 2 is because of some of these things I've been trying highlight. It's no longer an excuse that LoL is free to play, since so is Brood War. Same thing with Eve Online, it's free to play now too as far as I know but still can't compete with a subscription-based MMORPG like World of Warcraft. So... | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On June 23 2019 08:52 Dazed. wrote: I literally had eight real life friends who were heavily into broodwar at one point, every single one of them quit citing a stale map pool and meta as the reason. I've seen dozens of players come and go for the same reason. This is nonsense, honestly. Its not a debate. You either reform and possibly the game has new life breathed into it, or the game dies in a few years but peters on like a wraith for a while. We are currently in a state of no growth for players, snail like paced growth in the meta, using a decade+ old map pool, all the famous and well liked players are nearing their 30s, and are walking with severe injuries that may knock them out of the game entirely. The onus is on us to argue against the status quo? You'd have to be pretty blind not to see that broodwars scene isnt in a good place. Don't really have anything to add to that other than that I agree. I think people forget that there have been other games in the past too that have had their moment too until all but the diehards and the 2 dozen to 50 or so players that stick around playing that game (their favorite game) and know each other are left, this is the story of every single game there is from the 90's and probably the last decade too at this point. Edit: I guess I could add that there is still AoE2, HoMM3 and maybe even a handful of others with more than a thousand people that play the game online along with BW. Although I've never really played AoE's more than 15 minutes or so and I'm not really interested in playing HoMM3 online as it seems a little too slow-paced in that format even for its genre since there is not much simultaneous participation from all players in a turn unlike in MoO2 for example, although that game is very different from the former too to say the least. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
On June 23 2019 09:22 Dazed. wrote: saying aoe2 is alive because 1k people play it is like saying tribes 2 is alive. Yeah there are servers and you can get games, but the parties over. Sure but that's different from say playing the original Command & Conquer (C&C95 aka Tiberian Dawn) on CnCNet or MechCommander on GameRanger or maybe BattleZone II etc. etc. getting maybe 20 players at best and stuff like that. It's all relative so whatever | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 23 2019 09:22 Dazed. wrote: saying aoe2 is alive because 1k people play it is like saying tribes 2 is alive. Yeah there are servers and you can get games, but the parties over. Just want to chime in to say that competitive AoE2 was front page of Twitch about a month ago with ~15-20k concurrent viewers. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On June 23 2019 08:52 Dazed. wrote: I literally had eight real life friends who were heavily into broodwar at one point, every single one of them quit citing a stale map pool and meta as the reason. I've seen dozens of players come and go for the same reason. Well plenty quit SC2 and that game was changing all the time.The expansions were literally seperate games. But anyway, blizzard has agreed to patch Warcraft 3 balance. So we will see if it makes any difference to an old games playerbase long term. My guess is it won't make a meaningful difference. | ||
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Cheesefome
311 Posts
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Cheesefome
311 Posts
On June 21 2019 02:00 sM.Zik wrote: Why are they even making these polls if they don't use the result? 2-3 months ago they made a poll for the input bug, I believe 97% we're for, and they never added it into the game. This ^^ lol. The polls are pointless if they aren't actually going to do what the community votes for. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On June 23 2019 12:11 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Well plenty quit SC2 and that game was changing all the time.The expansions were literally seperate games. But anyway, blizzard has agreed to patch Warcraft 3 balance. So we will see if it makes any difference to an old games playerbase long term. My guess is it won't make a meaningful difference. aren't there like major issues on warcraft 3 since some patch after they announced reforged though? like custom games aborting/disconects, ladder or matchmaking problems and etc. seen many posts on blizzard classic forums. Also people getting crashes and performance issues since some patch. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On June 23 2019 18:48 ProMeTheus112 wrote: aren't there like major issues on warcraft 3 since some patch after they announced reforged though? like custom games aborting/disconects, ladder or matchmaking problems and etc. seen many posts on blizzard classic forums. Also people getting crashes and performance issues since some patch. Probably, it wouldn't surprise me at all. Those War3 bnet forums are total cancer BTW, just seen them now for the first time. | ||
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GoShox
United States1835 Posts
On June 23 2019 18:48 ProMeTheus112 wrote: aren't there like major issues on warcraft 3 since some patch after they announced reforged though? like custom games aborting/disconects, ladder or matchmaking problems and etc. seen many posts on blizzard classic forums. Also people getting crashes and performance issues since some patch. They straight up took down arranged team matchmaking until Reforged is out. Not a very good look to take away a feature from a game that's worked for years | ||
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Counc1l
33 Posts
There are many reasons why I suspect most brood war players are apprehensive about balance adjustments applied to unit stats. Its effects on the game's balance are difficult to predict. Furthermore, most brood war players are trying to improve in the game and have spent considerable time understanding its ins and outs. I think most people who play competitively are not interested in rethinking every build they and their opponent may use. I disagree with the subjective complaints about a stagnant metagame. Strategies like late mechanic and 111 did not become unstoppable strategies as some articulated, and while they are still great strategies, they have just become another viable option that Terrans have. I personally feel like starcraft strategy is under a constant state of evolution, even though I think this conversation is so subjective that its discussion is not necessarily particularly fruitful. There are only so many compositions and styles in brood war, eventually one is bound to have seen most of them. I suppose this is why some people might say things like the 111 weren't revolutionary or particularly exciting, things that have resembled it in some aspects have already existed. Even if we are to agree with the assertion that game meta stagnation has caused people to become bored of the game, I do not see how this alone would explain why so many people decided to stop playing Starcraft (maybe people who watch pros play). A majority of Starcraft players are simply not at a level of skill or game understanding where the only legitimate and viable way to play the game is whichever style accords with the meta. Many current players are already using strategies that scarcely resemble what the pros are doing. They have some success with it because they understand that their strategy is able to punish some weaknesses that "standard" builds have when in the control of a non-pro or non-advanced player. Such players are common as well, by my estimation. If one is not satisfied with this state of affairs, they are asking for either the impossible, or a game that no longer looks like brood war. Besides some reasons I stated above, I think the reason people are often hostile to suggestions to change the game are because such suggestions are usually not seriously researched or well thought out, while the risk that such changes could render brood war melee something that feels completely different is real. Usually, these suggestions are made by players who are unaware that units they want to change already serve a purpose in brood war of which they are unaware. For example, there are some currently existing legitimate uses of the guardian and the queen in even pro level play, and yet people still sometimes suggest units like this should be changed- even when they are not aware of how such units already interact with the meta. Finally, I think it's debatable what is contributing to brood war not growing faster than it does currently. I know of basically no RTS games that are extremely popular these days. Perhaps the genre is not as popular. Perhaps prospective players do not find appealing the notion that starcraft requires so much time for players to gain proficiency, or because it is difficult to even understand what is going on or why some micro/macro feat is impressive if you've never seen the game before. This is unlike games like first person shooters where impressive feats can be universally understood. edit: some bad typos | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Also just because Broodwar is on the decline doesn't mean we should radically overhaul the game. I am no marketing expert but I can imagine that a radical update would only alienate the loyal/hardcore players of the game (and I would say most BW players are hardcore players) while drawing in only a few people because no matter what, a 20 year old RTS that has a very steep learning curve won't be very popular nowadays. Sure, it might bring back some former casual players who left because they were disillusioned with the stagnant meta and lack of viable compositions/play styles. That said, this population is probably much smaller than the existing pool of players and not only that but there are more games competing against Brood War nowadays than in the past so most of the former casual players would probably not be interested enough to return to playing this game (especially since Brood War, whether or not there is a major update, is not geared towards casual players). In theory, it probably is possible to improve balance by making guardians have 4 more hp or tanks build .342 seconds slower of whatever. Jealous makes a good point that this is almost impossible to show and even if it actually did improve balance, I can say this confidently that if you told me that the guardian would now have 163 hp and tanks would build 0.23 seconds slower, I would be disappointed and I bet if I did a poll, many others would be too. Balance updates occurred near the beginning of Brood War but for many years, Brood War players have been pretty averse to changing balance. No game can last forever. Of course, that doesn't mean we should just let the game die. I think introducing 2v2 ladder/matchmaking system would help the scene as there are many 2v2 players who might feel like they are not receiving enough attention. Maybe improve UMS features but I don't play UMS so I don't know what I'm talking about regarding UMS. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 24 2019 15:51 Counc1l wrote: There is a vocal but small contingent of brood war players who believe that the game's survival hinges on fundamental changes to the way in which the game is played. Well, I tend not to agree with this assessment so I want to address it. In the spirit of examining both sides of the discussion, I think this group makes some fair points. Changing the game will create excitement by reshaping what is possible in the game. It also puts a reset on the game's meta and allows people to strategize instead of copying optimized build orders. I encourage anyone who wants to tinker with unit stats and allow brood war players the option to play it and contribute to another "version" of brood war. That is a reasonable point and devising completely new strategies is fun. Nevertheless, I do not think such changes should be forced on all of us, on brood war itself. I want to focus on this for a second. There is no evidence to support that balance changes bring outside people into a game. The only thing that brings new people into a game is publicity, whether it be through advertisement, viral marketing, or word-of-mouth. Additionally, the mentality behind build-orders being boring is because people don't understand what they're talking about half the time. For example, let's say you're a new player and you just want to get factories and make goliaths. You're gonna win some games doing that. But then you lose a bunch and then ask your Terran senpai what can be done better and that person goes "You're not even playing the game right. You need a solid macro-oriented build-order that can get you into the late game, and you need to perfect it by practicing 1,000,000 times." and then rolls out whatever the current meta is. That is a tremendous detriment to new players. I mean, I guess getting smashed x100000000000000 also is, but being TOLD HOW TO PLAY THE GAME takes away from the creativity and joy of winning. And I'll tell you why: if you have a strategy that you really like, and it wins a game, you should do that strategy until you get bored with it. But veteran players get stuck in this mentality that unorthodox plays are bad because they're risky, and tell new people to do these late-game macro builds and the new player has no idea what to look for, and once they get to the late game, they get lost and do a bunch of stupid shit, lose and get mad because they felt like they were "playing good" because they did all the build order parts right, but then got annihilated. Ultimately, what you end up with is a bitter player who hates the other races (lol I'm thinking of a very specific person right now), hates playing StarCraft but continues to play, has no idea what to do in the late game, and has to quit because they're not enjoying the game at all. That's why I always encourage people to branch out, try new strategies that they haven't considered, play different game modes, like 2v2, 3v3, play on Fastest, play on BGH, play UMS games like Desert Strike, and just do fun stuff with friends. Additionally, in 1v1, there are many ways to play. For example, in TvZ, you don't have to go +1 5 rax. Personally, I'd recommend working up to it at some point, but one could still go like 2 rax + tank on one base, or can go straight mech, or bunker rush every game, go 3 port wraith, go 1-base nuke, or whatever. There's options. As long as the player is having fun. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24326 Posts
Some changes aren’t going to keep people sticking around anyway, and may risk alienating the folks who already exist What I do feel is 100% missing and is absolutely not going to actually affect the game itself is an in-client central resource for those wanting to learn how to play competitive 1v1 A lot of the game is bugs that became features they didn’t change, but to actually find them all yourself intuitively is not going to happen. Perhaps including a whole bunch of stuff in a central place in the client, sort of a ‘melee boot camp’ kind of thing with tutorials and examples and a chance to play challenge scenarios yourself to learn would help a lot. You could do it in a UMS map but it becomes a matter of the players you want to find it actually finding it. All the micro tricks, stacking mutas or corsairs, building certain walls and sim cities that aren’t intuitive at all, etc. Maybe you could tie this in with some basic standard build orders too. I think the catchment area for growth is hardcore RTS fans, or people who like competitive 1v1 games and want a new challenge, but the knowledge barrier is huge and that task is made harder by that knowledge being spread all over the place. Even something as simple as walling an FFE can be wonky, in SC2 I can look at something and go ‘that’s a wall’, in BW not quite that simple. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 23 2019 08:52 Dazed. wrote: I literally had eight real life friends who were heavily into broodwar at one point, every single one of them quit citing a stale map pool and meta as the reason. I've seen dozens of players come and go for the same reason. This is nonsense, honestly. Its not a debate. You either reform and possibly the game has new life breathed into it, or the game dies in a few years but peters on like a wraith for a while. We are currently in a state of no growth for players, snail like paced growth in the meta, using a decade+ old map pool, all the famous and well liked players are nearing their 30s, and are walking with severe injuries that may knock them out of the game entirely. The onus is on us to argue against the status quo? You'd have to be pretty blind not to see that broodwars scene isnt in a good place. The status quo is death, and we can always play older patches if we walk into a disaster, or patch out disasters anyway. Change or die. uh no, maybe composition wise and mappool you have a point, but meta has not been "stale" Theres more changes to meta now than for 7-8 years before. Theres new builds coming out all the time, new adaptions to current meta. 2012-2015 before flash had terran on that undominant spot and labelled as a joke race, and now flash and his new revolutionary builds are changing meta every time he plays. few recent examples: TvZ: Mech play became once again standard part of terran play in regular maps when it was thought out to be only viable on selective maps, 1010 fast gas builds are part of terran arsenal, 2/3 port wraith are coming back with new optimizations, Soma has been showing that 2h plays can pressure top terrans more than 3h builds, and aggressive 2h builds are a very viable thing. Theres also the whole mech switch before meta for while before switching to neo sk and then battlecruiser based SK recently, if you want to argue about unit compositions/gameflow being stale TvP The new bunker expand completely eclipsed other macro terran openers from before as the new gold standard due to relevance of fast nexus and speed shuttle play. Bunker expand into academy armory or vult 1fact1port or 2fact openers are the meta for tvp, when previously it was just 2 marine double and FD, and new variants of biomech timings coming out. and thats just for terran side alone. | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On June 23 2019 12:11 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: I played sc2 for years and the games issue wasnt the revolving meta, it was fundamental design issues from the jump. Anyone whos played sc2 extensively will tell you the same. and bw would be lucky to get sc2s numbers outside of korea. the population is so tiny on the ladder i know familiar faces at my mmr, its just me and a few people pinging around.Well plenty quit SC2 and that game was changing all the time.The expansions were literally seperate games. But anyway, blizzard has agreed to patch Warcraft 3 balance. So we will see if it makes any difference to an old games playerbase long term. My guess is it won't make a meaningful difference. On June 24 2019 19:21 jinjin5000 wrote: This mech crap your referring to began in 2010, on identical maps to what we play now, has already largely been eclipsed, and were still playing around the same fundamentals. I mean fuck your glorious tvp example is that terrans expand with bunkers now? colour me shocked thats been going on for almost ten years now. Its more common, and? Not exactly surprising that the game will have faster macro openings if we play the exact same maps forever and ever. Minor efficiency improvements are not conducive to creativity or actual meta shifts. Its trivial. Only a fanatic would think something trivial like that is substantial, and thats why the bw population is so tiny. Only fanatics are left. And most of these fanatics are still too blind to see they are playing a dead game in a stale meta, stamp their foot and refuse any changes that might maintain the very game they 'love'. uh no, maybe composition wise and mappool you have a point, but meta has not been "stale" Theres more changes to meta now than for 7-8 years before. Theres new builds coming out all the time, new adaptions to current meta. 2012-2015 before flash had terran on that undominant spot and labelled as a joke race, and now flash and his new revolutionary builds are changing meta every time he plays. few recent examples: TvZ: Mech play became once again standard part of terran play in regular maps when it was thought out to be only viable on selective maps, 1010 fast gas builds are part of terran arsenal, 2/3 port wraith are coming back with new optimizations, Soma has been showing that 2h plays can pressure top terrans more than 3h builds, and aggressive 2h builds are a very viable thing. Theres also the whole mech switch before meta for while before switching to neo sk and then battlecruiser based SK recently, if you want to argue about unit compositions/gameflow being stale TvP The new bunker expand completely eclipsed other macro terran openers from before as the new gold standard due to relevance of fast nexus and speed shuttle play. Bunker expand into academy armory or vult 1fact1port or 2fact openers are the meta for tvp, when previously it was just 2 marine double and FD, and new variants of biomech timings coming out. and thats just for terran side alone. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 25 2019 06:37 Dazed. wrote: This mech crap your referring to began in 2010, on identical maps to what we play now, has already largely been eclipsed, and were still playing around the same fundamentals. I mean fuck your glorious tvp example is that terrans expand with bunkers now? colour me shocked thats been going on for almost ten years now. Its more common, and? Not exactly surprising that the game will have faster macro openings if we play the exact same maps forever and ever. Minor efficiency improvements are not conducive to creativity or actual meta shifts. Its trivial. Only a fanatic would think something trivial like that is substantial, and thats why the bw population is so tiny. Only fanatics are left. And most of these fanatics are still too blind to see they are playing a dead game in a stale meta, stamp their foot and refuse any changes that might maintain the very game they 'love'. Yea i knew i shouldnt have bothered responding when it was obvious you were clueless. Bunker fe is tech based factort expand that changes how tvp early game plays out with putting the siege upgrade expenditure into other upgrades to shift more diverse range of plays to terran, not a macro based build like rax fe or another macro opener When you dont even know these major meta shifts and claim meta is stale, just proves that you are speaking out of your ass | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
What sc2 ppl don't and probably can't understand is that the fans of a 21 years old esport are used to think in the long run. Sc2 basically came out with LOTV few years ago but taking into account major patches with units, spells, buildings addition and changes so the game basically just released. All the excitement and the casual friendliness of those "balance" changes only works till the company is willing to invest millions of dollars in it while the developers team can mess around with balance unpunished because there's no competition in the RTS genre, placing sc2 in a unique spot in gaming history* where developers can mess with a game not affecting the game popularity that much due to a lack of competition. *A similar situation happened with WoW because all the other MMO where pretty bad to compete with it but the complete death of the RTS genre is in a completely different order of magnitude. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 24 2019 18:54 Wombat_NI wrote: I feel the genre of RTS isn’t super popular anyway, and BW is bloody difficult to play Some changes aren’t going to keep people sticking around anyway, and may risk alienating the folks who already exist What I do feel is 100% missing and is absolutely not going to actually affect the game itself is an in-client central resource for those wanting to learn how to play competitive 1v1 A lot of the game is bugs that became features they didn’t change, but to actually find them all yourself intuitively is not going to happen. Perhaps including a whole bunch of stuff in a central place in the client, sort of a ‘melee boot camp’ kind of thing with tutorials and examples and a chance to play challenge scenarios yourself to learn would help a lot. You could do it in a UMS map but it becomes a matter of the players you want to find it actually finding it. All the micro tricks, stacking mutas or corsairs, building certain walls and sim cities that aren’t intuitive at all, etc. Maybe you could tie this in with some basic standard build orders too. I think the catchment area for growth is hardcore RTS fans, or people who like competitive 1v1 games and want a new challenge, but the knowledge barrier is huge and that task is made harder by that knowledge being spread all over the place. Even something as simple as walling an FFE can be wonky, in SC2 I can look at something and go ‘that’s a wall’, in BW not quite that simple. Knowledge makes the game deeper and adds to the value of learning it, but maybe I have a Korean mindset. It's true that the guilds where the source of knowledge back in the days and that nowadays people tend to find informations by themselves on social media. That's why a guild system and a comfortable, warm and attractive chat channels environmrnt are so important for this game. This is Starcraft Classic, the social aspect should be a huge and solid pillar of the game. EDIT: Hopefully after Carbot release the team will work on sprites for us to personalise the *Personal* channel (that doesn't even exist anymore), and the *Guild* channels (that only existed thx to bots). I mean, even just reusing Carbot assets and maybe just changing the size might be a great start for the idea of housing mentioned above. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 25 2019 22:10 AntiHack wrote: Knowledge makes the game deeper and adds to the value of learning it, but maybe I have a Korean mindset. It's true that the guilds where the source of knowledge back in the days and that nowadays people tend to find informations by themselves on social media. That's why a guild system and a comfortable, warm and attractive chat channels environmrnt are so important for this game. This is Starcraft Classic, the social aspect should be a huge and solid pillar of the game. EDIT: Hopefully after Carbot release the team will work on sprites for us to personalise the *Personal* channel (that doesn't even exist anymore), and the *Guild* channels (that only existed thx to bots). I mean, even just reusing Carbot assets and maybe just changing the size might be a great start for the idea of housing mentioned above. Unless you mean something I'm not aware of, "personal" channels still exist. You mean channels you can meet in with your friends that are not the main channels, right? Those are still there. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 25 2019 06:37 Dazed. wrote: This mech crap your referring to began in 2010, on identical maps to what we play now, has already largely been eclipsed, and were still playing around the same fundamentals. I mean fuck your glorious tvp example is that terrans expand with bunkers now? colour me shocked thats been going on for almost ten years now. Its more common, and? Not exactly surprising that the game will have faster macro openings if we play the exact same maps forever and ever. Minor efficiency improvements are not conducive to creativity or actual meta shifts. Its trivial. Only a fanatic would think something trivial like that is substantial, and thats why the bw population is so tiny. Only fanatics are left. And most of these fanatics are still too blind to see they are playing a dead game in a stale meta, stamp their foot and refuse any changes that might maintain the very game they 'love'. The what are YOU still doing here? You think anyone wants to hear you complain about the same thing with the same subjective points and denials for the umpteenth time? Why do you stay if all it makes you do is cry on forums? | ||
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castleeMg
Canada758 Posts
User was warned for this post. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 25 2019 23:40 Jealous wrote: Unless you mean something I'm not aware of, "personal" channels still exist. You mean channels you can meet in with your friends that are not the main channels, right? Those are still there. In 1.16 You could type your name as a channel and it automatically turned you admin. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 26 2019 02:15 AntiHack wrote: In 1.16 You could type your name as a channel and it automatically turned you admin. Aaah, like op AntiHack? Ok. Don't really know anyone that used that but I can see how it can be useful. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 25 2019 06:37 Dazed. wrote: I played sc2 for years and the games issue wasnt the revolving meta, it was fundamental design issues from the jump. Anyone whos played sc2 extensively will tell you the same. and bw would be lucky to get sc2s numbers outside of korea. the population is so tiny on the ladder i know familiar faces at my mmr, its just me and a few people pinging around. This mech crap your referring to began in 2010, on identical maps to what we play now, has already largely been eclipsed, and were still playing around the same fundamentals. I mean fuck your glorious tvp example is that terrans expand with bunkers now? colour me shocked thats been going on for almost ten years now. Its more common, and? Not exactly surprising that the game will have faster macro openings if we play the exact same maps forever and ever. Minor efficiency improvements are not conducive to creativity or actual meta shifts. Its trivial. Only a fanatic would think something trivial like that is substantial, and thats why the bw population is so tiny. Only fanatics are left. And most of these fanatics are still too blind to see they are playing a dead game in a stale meta, stamp their foot and refuse any changes that might maintain the very game they 'love'. On June 23 2019 03:51 Dazed. wrote: Well, think of it this way: Starcraft was niche across the west, so it attracted a certain personality type. Then, the game declined gradually as games expanded, like, the map aeon of strife turned into an entire genre. So a lot of casuals leave. The game is pretty small, so people who tend to take things very seriously, repeat things endlessly, fetishize and even worship the game, have an out sized impact on the scene. Not only do they drive out casuals by their attitude and the maps and before match maker, often the lopsided match ups in the scene, they reinforce each other. Elitists meet elitists and it grows. You get leagues where people are 'coached' the game. Practice practice practice. Your right on the money of course, the foreign broodwar scene is inundated with reactionary elitists who scorn all change or innovation. Often you will find they arent even very good players, they just know a couple builds on a couple maps really well...pathological thinking is all the craze here. You will honestly see people claim the game is perfectly balanced [all while their arguments circularly hinge on the games balance being contingent on changing map variables], or perfect in general. Its a bit of a cult if were honest. I feel a Castle-like reaction to your replies here, however, since we have to maintain a veneer of civility, I'd like to explain why I think you are wrong here. What you are essentially forming here is an argumentative style called a "kafka trap", where the more someone disagrees with you, the more it affirms how correct you are. For example, if you said "Hey, we should buff scouts so more people would use scouts, and if you disagree with me, you're an elitist who clings to a hollow, stale meta" and I present a case against the buffing of scouts, you could respond with "See? You don't want to change the meta." That sort of thinking is counter-productive to making an argument in favor of something. I would possibly be able to discuss a potential balance change if you actually made one, but you have not done so. You've argued nothing in a lot of words, but did manage to get in some jabs at the imaginary "bw elitist" boogeyman that is supposedly ruining the game. You've presented us with your anecdotal story about your "8 irl friends" who were so into Brood War that they quit(?). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this information. I don't know what anyone is supposed to do with this information. I mean, let's say everyone on this forum said "We're all in agreement: we need to make some arbitrary changes to the game." If for some reason Activision Blizzard even looked at this forum, they would still have to consider how that would change the game for the Korean gamers that comprise 99% of the population playing the game. I'll say this again: there is no evidence that balance changes will bring people into the game. The only thing that grows a game's audience is publicity, which can come by way of advertisements, viral marketing, word-of-mouth, and so on. I've played a bunch of games where there have been lots of balance changes, and for some reason, the population still goes down. If you want balance changes and a new meta, email Blizzard. It's that simple! Post on the Blizzard forums even. If you're feeling really obsessive, start stalking the developers in real life (my lawyer has advised me to say that's I'm kidding, and tell you not to do this). You may go "Well, they're gonna want the community to be behind those changes I propose.", and if you're saying this, then you should be trying to persuade the community to see what you see. Right now, you're calling everyone who disagrees with you 'elitist', 'part of a cult', 'someone who worships the game', 'reactionaries', 'fetishists', and so on. Not really good ways to win people over, I've found. I would highly recommend you change the way you communicate your ideas to the TL community, because so far, your current method does not seem to be working very well. I'd leave you with that, but I want to mention a few miscellaneous things: - DotA was a fluke. There are thousands of UMS maps that have not developed into their own games/genres. - If the statement "Only fanatics are left." is correct, then holy shit, what are you doing - You are more than welcome to make UMS maps with any balance changes you want. In fact, I encourage it. - When we're talking about the "meta", that applies almost exclusively to 1v1 games. A casual player is not going to do well in 1v1 games regardless of whether or not the meta changes, because they are a casual player. - Casual players will NEVER stick around no matter what, because they are casual players. - A small internet forum is not responsible for voluntarily growing a large corporation's game's player-base. If you have stuff that you want to discuss about the game's balance and meta, feel free to open a thread, and write out, in specific detail, what you'd like to see happen. | ||
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kfasa
1 Post
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Jaeyun
United States202 Posts
It's like wanting to change a classic game like chess to make the pieces do different things just to inspire new strategy. Seriously, just make a new game at that point. You can alter units on UMS - if it's as popular and in-demand as you think, then make it and see how many people play it. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
There was actually a poll a few months ago about whether people were okay with changing the stats of unused units (like nukes, scouts, guardians). Anyway, admittedly the question that the poll was asking is not exactly the same thing as making a major patch (although I'm pretty sure that would have even less support) but changing unit stats is fundamentally similar to patching in the sense that they both affect meta/balance. 77% were against changing unused unit stats and 23% were for it so there is good reason to suspect the BW community would not be in favour of changing balance/meta through patches. https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/544549-can-we-talk-about-broodwars-underused-units | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 26 2019 09:24 Jaeyun wrote: What makes BW/SC:R what it is, and almost always has been is the fact that you have decades of intense study and passion that went into figuring out the game void of any balance changes. If you don't keep up with the pro scene or if you aren't knowledgable enough in the game, I can see how it looks stale and boring to the untrained eye. In the era of streaming, the shared information across top pros makes the meta shift exponentially faster as opposed to the past where teams literally hid their strategies in preparation against each other. There's hardly any other games that can boast the longevity and success of competition in the pro scene that continues to develop to this day. To appreciate the depth of all that is being passionate and appreciative of a great game, not elitist. This game is hard, and doesn't fit what the masses want in gaming today. "Balancing" the game doesn't change that. It's like wanting to change a classic game like chess to make the pieces do different things just to inspire new strategy. Seriously, just make a new game at that point. You can alter units on UMS - if it's as popular and in-demand as you think, then make it and see how many people play it. Great point here. I may add that "other games" not having a history that is about players talent and discoveries just like any other sport is very unfortunate. Honestly I would be embarrassed proposing my game to the Olympics while it's a "sport" completely owned by his creator and subjected to constant changes to keep it exciting which really is something disgusting from Real Life Sports point of view. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 26 2019 03:01 Jealous wrote: Aaah, like op AntiHack? Ok. Don't really know anyone that used that but I can see how it can be useful. It was used all the time, at last in EU | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 26 2019 07:23 ninazerg wrote: I feel a Castle-like reaction to your replies here, however, since we have to maintain a veneer of civility, I'd like to explain why I think you are wrong here. + Show Spoiler [Aesthetic spoiler] + What you are essentially forming here is an argumentative style called a "kafka trap", where the more someone disagrees with you, the more it affirms how correct you are. For example, if you said "Hey, we should buff scouts so more people would use scouts, and if you disagree with me, you're an elitist who clings to a hollow, stale meta" and I present a case against the buffing of scouts, you could respond with "See? You don't want to change the meta." That sort of thinking is counter-productive to making an argument in favor of something. I would possibly be able to discuss a potential balance change if you actually made one, but you have not done so. You've argued nothing in a lot of words, but did manage to get in some jabs at the imaginary "bw elitist" boogeyman that is supposedly ruining the game. You've presented us with your anecdotal story about your "8 irl friends" who were so into Brood War that they quit(?). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this information. I don't know what anyone is supposed to do with this information. I mean, let's say everyone on this forum said "We're all in agreement: we need to make some arbitrary changes to the game." If for some reason Activision Blizzard even looked at this forum, they would still have to consider how that would change the game for the Korean gamers that comprise 99% of the population playing the game. I'll say this again: there is no evidence that balance changes will bring people into the game. The only thing that grows a game's audience is publicity, which can come by way of advertisements, viral marketing, word-of-mouth, and so on. I've played a bunch of games where there have been lots of balance changes, and for some reason, the population still goes down. If you want balance changes and a new meta, email Blizzard. It's that simple! Post on the Blizzard forums even. If you're feeling really obsessive, start stalking the developers in real life (my lawyer has advised me to say that's I'm kidding, and tell you not to do this). You may go "Well, they're gonna want the community to be behind those changes I propose.", and if you're saying this, then you should be trying to persuade the community to see what you see. Right now, you're calling everyone who disagrees with you 'elitist', 'part of a cult', 'someone who worships the game', 'reactionaries', 'fetishists', and so on. Not really good ways to win people over, I've found. I would highly recommend you change the way you communicate your ideas to the TL community, because so far, your current method does not seem to be working very well. I'd leave you with that, but I want to mention a few miscellaneous things: - DotA was a fluke. There are thousands of UMS maps that have not developed into their own games/genres. - If the statement "Only fanatics are left." is correct, then holy shit, what are you doing - You are more than welcome to make UMS maps with any balance changes you want. In fact, I encourage it. - When we're talking about the "meta", that applies almost exclusively to 1v1 games. A casual player is not going to do well in 1v1 games regardless of whether or not the meta changes, because they are a casual player. - Casual players will NEVER stick around no matter what, because they are casual players. - A small internet forum is not responsible for voluntarily growing a large corporation's game's player-base. If you have stuff that you want to discuss about the game's balance and meta, feel free to open a thread, and write out, in specific detail, what you'd like to see happen. Given our great success as an investigative team in the past, I thought the time was right to again combine your initial interest in a case with my The Stale Meta of Dazed's TL Posts First and foremost, it makes sense to map out a behavioral pattern for the poster in question. Due to the chief complaint seeming to be "stale meta" or "stale map pool," I have taken the liberty of searching for every time Dazed has used the word to try and capture a trend for the usage of the term. The first appearance of the term as used by Dazed in reference to Brood War was in April, 2008. It should be noted that Dazed had only been a member of TL for a month and change, and was already complaining about the staleness of the competitive map pool. This provides us with three possible pieces of information: 1. If nothing else, Dazed's opinion of the map pool/meta is consistent. His opinion that the map pool is stale predates the first pro-level game played on Fighting Spirit by well over a year. As this was the first ever usage of the term by Dazed, is it safe to say that Dazed's opinion is proven to be staler than Fighting Spirit? We'll explore this more below. 2. The first professional game played on Python was on June 10th, 2007, meaning that within the scope of less than a year, Dazed had already determined that Python is "stale." This hypothetically puts the shelf life of any given map at around ten months before it goes "stale." 3. Dazed has been unhappy with the state of competitive Brood War for years before the match-fixing scandal, the hybrid league, post-KeSPA lack of new maps, etc. He was hinting at his unhappiness within two months of joining TL in 2008. This equates to over 11 years of playing and watching a game in which you are fundamentally unhappy with the community consensus on core elements and its general direction. Misattributed quotes about insanity aside, one has to question whether the feeling of staleness that Dazed has experienced throughout the years grew exponentially over time, whether each new map did anything to allay those issues (for 10 months or so), so on and so forth. One thing can be said for certain, however, is that Dazed's decision to stay despite a seemingly perpetual state of discontent means that he must be pretty comfortable with misery, which explains his lack of inhibition in sharing it with others through his posts - or, he is an addict, and Brood War is his drug of choice. Could be both. This is actually turning into a pretty tragic case. New title. The Stale Tragedy of Dazed ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/9gnChc2.png) Did someone mention obsessive and fanatical? To address the earlier quandary about whether or not the "staleness" of the game (along with the nature of his posts) according to Dazed is exponential, the above graph demonstrates that it is indeed the case. Perhaps this stands to logic that as a piece of bread stays out on the counter longer and longer, it becomes more and more stale, until it is eventually moldy and inedible. When will Dazed reach that level with Brood War, after over 11 years of nibbling on ever-staler bread? When will the TL community reach that level with Dazed's posts about staleness? When will the staleception become too much? The outlook isn't good. My brief dive into Dazed's post history has unearthed what can only be described as a descent into madness combined with a caustic grumpy war veteran getting more and more fed up with his wife, to the point where civility has begun to elude him. Take a look at the progression (or regression?) of the rhetoric Dazed uses to cushion his claims of Brood War "staleness:" + Show Spoiler [The Descent] + On April 28 2008 11:42 Dazed. wrote: This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no? The first mention of the topic from Dazed, in a thread about a fan-made map. Here we see the beginnings of both the "staleness" trend, and the trend of Dazed bringing his opinion into vaguely related threads. The bread is fresh out of the bag at this point, and Dazed's post goes off without a hitch. Compare this with the following post, 10 years later: On August 29 2018 11:52 Dazed. wrote: if were gonna vent: started playing bw in 99 and started playing melee seriously in late 05. Never has the game been more stale in terms of the strategies people actually employ in the amateur scene, never has the scene been so stale both in map rotation and map type [can anyone honestly say fighting spirit is a distinct map from cb? im sorry they simply arent]. I thought unoriginal cookie cutter bitches who couldnt think their way out of a paper bag were a problem in 2007; I cant remember the last time I saw someone actually engage in creative thinking, least of all an original build. The issues of 2007 are magnified a million times. Stale games with macro bots who, in fact, have huge holes in their play because they only know one build, one map, no ability to deviate, no ability to think on their feet. Barely even a strategy game at this point. If i wanted mindless macro games I would of stuck to bgh. Notice the hostility, the self-righteous indignation which now consumes Dazed. Here are some more examples: On March 15 2018 07:10 Dazed. wrote: Have you played neo requiem? Not a balanced map, yet it isnt boring to play or watch, and the game play is hardly one dimensional. You dont know what your talking about. One major point of distinction is that in the kespa days the scene hadnt already ossified to the extent where the maps they were retaining had been there for an entire decade, nor were any of the standard maps simply replaceable without any real distinction--- cb and fs have their differences, to be sure, but they and maps of that era are some of the most bland, unoriginal, and similar maps in broodwar history. Played one, you played them all. And its been almost ten years. Ten years of staleness and you still have people complaining that change is happening too quickly. Genuinely pathetic. This post predates the former, and it shows a clear indicator of how severe the condition of cynicism has become in the afflicted. In March of 2018, he admits that CB and FS have their differences. Not even half a year later, he is challenging the TL population to "honestly say" that FS and CB are different maps. Within the span of a few months, Dazed has metaphorically gone from low key conversational racism to burning crosses. On March 15 2018 02:23 Dazed. wrote: Seems interesting. Finally we can move past the seven year stale boring ass meta game of FS and CB trash. I'd take anything over that. Another comment on a map thread. On August 03 2018 01:27 Dazed. wrote: Its awful. often laggy games, definitely never a consistent mmr. waste of time. bored of bw's stale meta anyway, ten years of the same maps. So long and thanks for all the fish! Predating the "venting" post by a few weeks, it seems that Dazed has had enough of Brood War and is moving on, using a famous Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote - which, for those that are unaware, alludes contextually to dolphins (who are more intelligent than humans in this series) leaving the Earth. Dazed, perched upon his high throne of peerless intelligence and analysis of the Brood War meta, is bidding us farewell! Bye Dazed! On August 04 2018 06:17 Dazed. wrote: +- 600 mmr with endless rematches, all on decades old maps that were stale and uninspired the day they were released: thats ladder. Yipeee!! Nevermind, 29 hours later Dazed is back to do some more bitching and moaning. Welcome back, I guess! One has to wonder, how many losses does Dazed rack up in between these posts, or at least shortly before them? On September 07 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote: my analysis: boring and stale. what a cock up given how great third world turned out. incompetents. In another map announcement thread, Dazed shares his peerless wisdom and insight on map making once more. If Dazed's posting habits are to be seen as caused by his perception of the game's/map pool's staleness, then that presents us with an undeniable proof: 1. The longer FS and CB are in the map pool, the exponentially more stale they are according to Dazed. 2. The more stale they are according to Dazed, the exponentially greater quantity and lower quality of posts will be made by Dazed about their staleness. 3. The more Dazed posts about their staleness, his posts grow exponentially more stale as a result. What we have here is a doubly exponential process. This gives us the following series of equations, and an alarming conclusion: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/WRgsW1I.png) diosmio.png For those of you not operating on near-Dazed levels of insight, this means that we will be rapidly approaching a singularity of staleness on TL as a result of Dazed's posts, unless FS and CB (and other "standard" "macro" maps) are expressly removed from the map pool. Considering this is entirely outside of our control, we have no option but to be idle observers of this catastrophe. On Consistency We have already addressed the fact that Dazed's opinion, since pre-FS times, has been unwavering. One thing we are missing from our current calculations, however, are all of the posts that allude to the deplorable state of affairs in the game that do not mention the word "stale." I have looked at Dazed's post history over the past 100 posts (~4 months), and have come up with an alarming statistic: If we exclude posts made in the Game of Thrones thread and the SC2 section, 53.75% of Dazed's posts allude to staleness in one way or another - 43 posts in total. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/IgHndaA.png) The staleness grows... The number of posts he made alluding to the staleness of the game FAR outpace any non-Brood War content, and outpace the non-staleness discussion too. This includes throw-away posts like signing up for leagues, or simply saying "thank you," in response to someone as well. We are past the half-way point. The only question is whether Dazed will increase the ratio of stale to non-stale posts, divert more attention to making stale posts in favor of Game of Thrones posts, make more posts overall, or all three? As we determined above, the staleness has shown no signs of stopping, so at least one of the above are on our radar in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled. Let's take a breather for a moment and examine what happens when Dazed does make his stale posts. Do many of them go unanswered? Yes. I believe many posters have accepted that this is the natural state of things, that every topic that is even tangentially related to the state of Brood War will have a stale Dazed post in it, and that it is best to just ignore it. However, there have been times when people decided to call Dazed out on his assertions. Nina's post above is one example. At times, he has been addressed by numerous people (read on in the thread). One thing that has remained consistent about Dazed throughout these encounters where he gets btfo by players more knowledgeable than him, is that he just stops answering - he slithers away from whence he came, only to resurface a while later in a different thread, repeating the same things. He has done this when in other situations as well. I have personally asked him numerous times why he subjects himself to an environment in which he is unhappy, to no avail. In short, I think that given Dazed's consistency, Nina's queries will go unanswered. More specifically to the content of Nina's post and initial inquiry in to this case: Nina suggests that Dazed make a thread with specific changes that he would suggest that would cure the staleness of Brood War. Of course, he has never done so. In fact, he has never made any thread at all. So, to those who are waiting for Dazed to explain how to deal with the staleness of Brood War (and thus, offer us an escape from the inevitable staleness armageddon), I would say do not hold your breath. Finally, I would like to address a perplexing element of Dazed's remarkable consistency. Despite his statements claiming that the map pool hasn't significantly changed in 10 years, the options for Zerg have all been the same, and that the game is just generally stale, Dazed has not actually improved by any noticeable margin. This is evidenced by his continued participation in noob-oriented leagues for the vast majority of the past 10 years. This is by no means to shame any low level players out there - there is no shame in being a noob, even if you're a noob for 10 years. The main purpose is to raise a question. If everything is so stale, and we have determined that Dazed's staleness increases exponentially over time, shouldn't he be perfectly suited to this environment which he deplores? Is it perhaps the internal struggle of being stale but hating staleness that prevents him from unlocking his true powers and dominating the stale meta? Dare I say that this could all be borne of frustration from the staleness of his skill - losing in (seemingly) the same way every time for over a decade? Or is that the conundrum of staleness - that being more stale is equivalent to approaching a sort of baseline of staleness from which one can never escape? These are questions that unfortunately I do not have the qualifications to answer, but it is interesting to muse them nonetheless. Conclusions ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/jPmTmFs.jpg) Dazed's spirit animal. TL;DR: The "Stale" Apocalypse is coming, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. And it's Dazed's fault. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 28 2019 04:30 Wrath wrote: Can a mod please lock this thread up? This is becoming stupid. The people demand to know what Dazed will do to avert the inevitable tragedy that looms over us. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On June 28 2019 04:07 Jealous wrote: Given our great success as an investigative team in the past, I thought the time was right to again combine your initial interest in a case with my The Stale Meta of Dazed's TL Posts First and foremost, it makes sense to map out a behavioral pattern for the poster in question. Due to the chief complaint seeming to be "stale meta" or "stale map pool," I have taken the liberty of searching for every time Dazed has used the word to try and capture a trend for the usage of the term. The first appearance of the term as used by Dazed in reference to Brood War was in April, 2008. It should be noted that Dazed had only been a member of TL for a month and change, and was already complaining about the staleness of the competitive map pool. This provides us with three possible pieces of information: 1. If nothing else, Dazed's opinion of the map pool/meta is consistent. His opinion that the map pool is stale predates the first pro-level game played on Fighting Spirit by well over a year. As this was the first ever usage of the term by Dazed, is it safe to say that Dazed's opinion is proven to be staler than Fighting Spirit? We'll explore this more below. 2. The first professional game played on Python was on June 10th, 2007, meaning that within the scope of less than a year, Dazed had already determined that Python is "stale." This hypothetically puts the shelf life of any given map at around ten months before it goes "stale." 3. Dazed has been unhappy with the state of competitive Brood War for years before the match-fixing scandal, the hybrid league, post-KeSPA lack of new maps, etc. He was hinting at his unhappiness within two months of joining TL in 2008. This equates to over 11 years of playing and watching a game in which you are fundamentally unhappy with the community consensus on core elements and its general direction. Misattributed quotes about insanity aside, one has to question whether the feeling of staleness that Dazed has experienced throughout the years grew exponentially over time, whether each new map did anything to allay those issues (for 10 months or so), so on and so forth. One thing can be said for certain, however, is that Dazed's decision to stay despite a seemingly perpetual state of discontent means that he must be pretty comfortable with misery, which explains his lack of inhibition in sharing it with others through his posts - or, he is an addict, and Brood War is his drug of choice. Could be both. This is actually turning into a pretty tragic case. New title. The Stale Tragedy of Dazed Did someone mention obsessive and fanatical? To address the earlier quandary about whether or not the "staleness" of the game (along with the nature of his posts) according to Dazed is exponential, the above graph demonstrates that it is indeed the case. Perhaps this stands to logic that as a piece of bread stays out on the counter longer and longer, it becomes more and more stale, until it is eventually moldy and inedible. When will Dazed reach that level with Brood War, after over 11 years of nibbling on ever-staler bread? When will the TL community reach that level with Dazed's posts about staleness? When will the staleception become too much? The outlook isn't good. My brief dive into Dazed's post history has unearthed what can only be described as a descent into madness combined with a caustic grumpy war veteran getting more and more fed up with his wife, to the point where civility has begun to elude him. Take a look at the progression (or regression?) of the rhetoric Dazed uses to cushion his claims of Brood War "staleness:" + Show Spoiler [The Descent] + On April 28 2008 11:42 Dazed. wrote: This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no? The first mention of the topic from Dazed, in a thread about a fan-made map. Here we see the beginnings of both the "staleness" trend, and the trend of Dazed bringing his opinion into vaguely related threads. The bread is fresh out of the bag at this point, and Dazed's post goes off without a hitch. Compare this with the following post, 10 years later: On August 29 2018 11:52 Dazed. wrote: if were gonna vent: started playing bw in 99 and started playing melee seriously in late 05. Never has the game been more stale in terms of the strategies people actually employ in the amateur scene, never has the scene been so stale both in map rotation and map type [can anyone honestly say fighting spirit is a distinct map from cb? im sorry they simply arent]. I thought unoriginal cookie cutter bitches who couldnt think their way out of a paper bag were a problem in 2007; I cant remember the last time I saw someone actually engage in creative thinking, least of all an original build. The issues of 2007 are magnified a million times. Stale games with macro bots who, in fact, have huge holes in their play because they only know one build, one map, no ability to deviate, no ability to think on their feet. Barely even a strategy game at this point. If i wanted mindless macro games I would of stuck to bgh. Notice the hostility, the self-righteous indignation which now consumes Dazed. Here are some more examples: On March 15 2018 07:10 Dazed. wrote: Have you played neo requiem? Not a balanced map, yet it isnt boring to play or watch, and the game play is hardly one dimensional. You dont know what your talking about. One major point of distinction is that in the kespa days the scene hadnt already ossified to the extent where the maps they were retaining had been there for an entire decade, nor were any of the standard maps simply replaceable without any real distinction--- cb and fs have their differences, to be sure, but they and maps of that era are some of the most bland, unoriginal, and similar maps in broodwar history. Played one, you played them all. And its been almost ten years. Ten years of staleness and you still have people complaining that change is happening too quickly. Genuinely pathetic. This post predates the former, and it shows a clear indicator of how severe the condition of cynicism has become in the afflicted. In March of 2018, he admits that CB and FS have their differences. Not even half a year later, he is challenging the TL population to "honestly say" that FS and CB are different maps. Within the span of a few months, Dazed has metaphorically gone from low key conversational racism to burning crosses. On March 15 2018 02:23 Dazed. wrote: Seems interesting. Finally we can move past the seven year stale boring ass meta game of FS and CB trash. I'd take anything over that. Another comment on a map thread. On August 03 2018 01:27 Dazed. wrote: Its awful. often laggy games, definitely never a consistent mmr. waste of time. bored of bw's stale meta anyway, ten years of the same maps. So long and thanks for all the fish! Predating the "venting" post by a few weeks, it seems that Dazed has had enough of Brood War and is moving on, using a famous Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote - which, for those that are unaware, alludes contextually to dolphins (who are more intelligent than humans in this series) leaving the Earth. Dazed, perched upon his high throne of peerless intelligence and analysis of the Brood War meta, is bidding us farewell! Bye Dazed! On August 04 2018 06:17 Dazed. wrote: +- 600 mmr with endless rematches, all on decades old maps that were stale and uninspired the day they were released: thats ladder. Yipeee!! Nevermind, 29 hours later Dazed is back to do some more bitching and moaning. Welcome back, I guess! One has to wonder, how many losses does Dazed rack up in between these posts, or at least shortly before them? On September 07 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote: my analysis: boring and stale. what a cock up given how great third world turned out. incompetents. In another map announcement thread, Dazed shares his peerless wisdom and insight on map making once more. If Dazed's posting habits are to be seen as caused by his perception of the game's/map pool's staleness, then that presents us with an undeniable proof: 1. The longer FS and CB are in the map pool, the exponentially more stale they are according to Dazed. 2. The more stale they are according to Dazed, the exponentially greater quantity and lower quality of posts will be made by Dazed about their staleness. 3. The more Dazed posts about their staleness, his posts grow exponentially more stale as a result. What we have here is a doubly exponential process. This gives us the following series of equations, and an alarming conclusion: diosmio.png For those of you not operating on near-Dazed levels of insight, this means that we will be rapidly approaching a singularity of staleness on TL as a result of Dazed's posts, unless FS and CB (and other "standard" "macro" maps) are expressly removed from the map pool. Considering this is entirely outside of our control, we have no option but to be idle observers of this catastrophe. On Consistency We have already addressed the fact that Dazed's opinion, since pre-FS times, has been unwavering. One thing we are missing from our current calculations, however, are all of the posts that allude to the deplorable state of affairs in the game that do not mention the word "stale." I have looked at Dazed's post history over the past 100 posts (~4 months), and have come up with an alarming statistic: If we exclude posts made in the Game of Thrones thread and the SC2 section, 53.75% of Dazed's posts allude to staleness in one way or another - 43 posts in total. The staleness grows... The number of posts he made alluding to the staleness of the game FAR outpace any non-Brood War content, and outpace the non-staleness discussion too. This includes throw-away posts like signing up for leagues, or simply saying "thank you," in response to someone as well. We are past the half-way point. The only question is whether Dazed will increase the ratio of stale to non-stale posts, divert more attention to making stale posts in favor of Game of Thrones posts, make more posts overall, or all three? As we determined above, the staleness has shown no signs of stopping, so at least one of the above are on our radar in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled. Let's take a breather for a moment and examine what happens when Dazed does make his stale posts. Do many of them go unanswered? Yes. I believe many posters have accepted that this is the natural state of things, that every topic that is even tangentially related to the state of Brood War will have a stale Dazed post in it, and that it is best to just ignore it. However, there have been times when people decided to call Dazed out on his assertions. Nina's post above is one example. At times, he has been addressed by numerous people (read on in the thread). One thing that has remained consistent about Dazed throughout these encounters where he gets btfo by players more knowledgeable than him, is that he just stops answering - he slithers away from whence he came, only to resurface a while later in a different thread, repeating the same things. He has done this when in other situations as well. I have personally asked him numerous times why he subjects himself to an environment in which he is unhappy, to no avail. In short, I think that given Dazed's consistency, Nina's queries will go unanswered. More specifically to the content of Nina's post and initial inquiry in to this case: Nina suggests that Dazed make a thread with specific changes that he would suggest that would cure the staleness of Brood War. Of course, he has never done so. In fact, he has never made any thread at all. So, to those who are waiting for Dazed to explain how to deal with the staleness of Brood War (and thus, offer us an escape from the inevitable staleness armageddon), I would say do not hold your breath. Finally, I would like to address a perplexing element of Dazed's remarkable consistency. Despite his statements claiming that the map pool hasn't significantly changed in 10 years, the options for Zerg have all been the same, and that the game is just generally stale, Dazed has not actually improved by any noticeable margin. This is evidenced by his continued participation in noob-oriented leagues for the vast majority of the past 10 years. This is by no means to shame any low level players out there - there is no shame in being a noob, even if you're a noob for 10 years. The main purpose is to raise a question. If everything is so stale, and we have determined that Dazed's staleness increases exponentially over time, shouldn't he be perfectly suited to this environment which he deplores? Is it perhaps the internal struggle of being stale but hating staleness that prevents him from unlocking his true powers and dominating the stale meta? Dare I say that this could all be borne of frustration from the staleness of his skill - losing in (seemingly) the same way every time for over a decade? Or is that the conundrum of staleness - that being more stale is equivalent to approaching a sort of baseline of staleness from which one can never escape? These are questions that unfortunately I do not have the qualifications to answer, but it is interesting to muse them nonetheless. Conclusions Dazed's spirit animal. TL;DR: The "Stale" Apocalypse is coming, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. And it's Dazed's fault. Is this really necessary jealous? I think it is fairly obvious to me that dazed was making nonsensical arguments and apparently made unreasonable accusations about “bw elitists. Nina already dismantled his statements. Is it necessary to search his posting history and try to prove.. what? Or is it just about mocking him? I agree on the point made by Nina but you're over the line here i feel. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 28 2019 05:09 Cele wrote: Is this really necessary jealous? I think it is fairly obvious to me that dazed was making nonsensical arguments and apparently made unreasonable accusations about “bw elitists. Nina already dismantled his statements. Is it necessary to search his posting history and try to prove.. what? Or is it just about mocking him? I agree on the point made by Nina but you're over the line here i feel. If people weren't meant to be held accountable for their posting history, there wouldn't be access to it on TL. I'm proving that no matter how much time people waste on answering his diatribes about the game that he still plays and watches and the community surrounding it, that he doesn't change and he will continue to spout the same nonsense. Perhaps we should all just move on to ignoring it since he apparently learned that attacking people while posting these things is what gets him banned, so he is probably going to continue skirting the ban line while trying to infect the forums with his drivel. By illuminating his MO, I have prepared everyone for the future - the fact that in about a week or a month's time, there will be another vaguely tangentially relevant thread, and he will again resurface to say the same tired shit, and there won't be any repercussions for it. People will waste their time and energy assailing his points, and he will just disappear as always, or simply say "no that's not right, that's still the same thing, the game doesn't change, ban FS, blah blah." I'm doing community service. It's like informing parents that there is a sexual predator that lives a few blocks away from them. I'm informing the good people of TL that they shouldn't waste their time on Dazed's habitual whining. EDIT: Also highlighting the tragic irony of the fact that the "stagnant" BW population/map pool/gameplay/whatever is actually outdone in that category by the stagnant nature of his own posts and his own BW play. | ||
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chozen86
United States60 Posts
As a relative newcomer, I can honestly say that it's a pretty great time to be a noob at BW, definitely better than around the time RM came out. But I also thought I'd share this post from some new blood in BW who are running a "new player's club" daily stream (and are also part of the LMaster's Discord community) that to me really captures the soul of a major player base we are trying to expand to (at least on the melee/1v1 level): https://www.reddit.com/r/broodwar/comments/c3whfv/a_glimmer_of_hope/erviff1?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x It's worth reposting in its entirety here: So, I am a competitive gamer. I take things pretty seriously for the most part. The game I was putting all my time and effort into completely collapsed. One minute I was on a team, competing in tournaments, try to qualify for LANS, running a pretty large streaming community, etc. The next minute the entire esports scene got gutted, the devs made some pretty poor (and in my opinion unethical) decisions, and the playerbase went to 0. I didn't realize how much of my happiness in the gaming realm was tied to that 1 game. When it went to 0, so did practicing with friends, so did theorycrafting in a call with a bunch of other people, just... everything basically (in the gaming sphere of my life). After that, I kept my head up, and just tried to find a different game that I could plant roots in. That turned out to be a lot harder than I thought. Nothing really fit my personal criteria. A friend of mine who understood the situation and knows me well said "You know Starcraft Brood War got Remastered, maybe you give that a go?" We talked for a bit and he had me intrigued. I played the game on N64 when I was a boy, so there was a nostalgia factor, and if you are into esports at all you know of the games existence, you know it has a reputation for being a very respected thing, etc. So I installed it, started playing some customs vs AI, listened to Day9 videos, and then pulled up some videos of modern day competitions etc. The combination of doing all those things really had me thinking "Man this game is really something!" The skill ceiling seems limitless! The depth seems... REALLY DEEP! You could play this game for years and years and still have so much left to work on! So all of these things, and similar things, led me to the actions I took next. I started looking for discords so I could feel out the community. I found a few. LMaster discord, CPL, RSL, etc. I started asking a lot of questions. I got a lot of responses. People seemed more than willing to help and you could feel their passion through the monitor. They invited me to come play with them, they were cracking jokes with me (TESAGI etc), and I was just sold. Everything pointed to... THIS IS THE GAME I WANT TO PLAY LONG TERM. Everything since then has just reinforced that idea. So many passionate people are in this scene. THAT IS NOT COMMON. There is more, but I am typing a novel. I hope this helped answer your question in some way. I am more than happy to answer any other specific questions. I guess just thanks everybody I've met so far for being so welcoming and caring so much about a game. It feels very good to be around people that seem to care as much about this stuff as I do. As for new players getting destroyed on ladder, keep your head up. The ladder is a bit flawed from understanding. There are more smurfs in this game than any other game I've been apart of. You can make new ID's without any real barrier to entry. The game is 20 years old so even the lower players on the ladder still have a tremendous amount of experience in many cases. I have seen "Why even try, the game is 20 years old there is no way in hell i could be good!" That statement is COMPLETELY false, although I do understand where people are coming from when they say it. Join the discords I stated above, or DM me, or whatever you gotta do. I promise you, you can improve tremendously at Brood War and still have a very pleasant, fulfilling, and fun time doing so. GL HF everybody. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 28 2019 05:09 Cele wrote: Is this really necessary jealous? I think it is fairly obvious to me that dazed was making nonsensical arguments and apparently made unreasonable accusations about “bw elitists. Nina already dismantled his statements. Is it necessary to search his posting history and try to prove.. what? Or is it just about mocking him? I agree on the point made by Nina but you're over the line here i feel. calling out on this type of thing is spirit of internet forums, just like how jealous got called out on his LAN thing. Fair game and especially for dazed since jealous revealed that he has been posting about stale meta since 2008 now every time dazed post about stale meta, he will be shut down with jealous's weaponized posts. We now have a definite answer to a veteran staleposter | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
The map makers are trying to squeeze what they can from the strict parameters, like with Sparkle last year.Not a balanced map but good for a change i suppose.The level of skill required to make top level maps is extremely high, very few can do it now. But he's talking about changing the meta, buffing scouts won't do that.A few minor changes to underused units won't really do that.He wants changes to core abilities and units which has zero chance of happening.Blizzard said no balance changes.The team struggles to achieve basic functionality two years after release they have no time for these balance changes and no will from the majority of the community.So it's a total waste of time to even be speculating on it. | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On June 28 2019 13:34 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Well, he's right in that map making has so many rules now that the maps can be formulaic.Protoss needing to be able to wall natural easily, mains not being too close as to weaken the ling rush somewhat.Maps are generally symmetrical.The last non 128-128 map was Paranoid Android? Destination? whatever the case the vast majority of maps are the same size. Crossing Field is a good modern example. I feel like size is barely a concern. There is enough variety within the boundaries that you can't say "all 128x128 maps are the same," or anything even close to that - even if they aren't island/semi-island or whatnot. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Reflecting on it, I found that it was sometimes kind of fun when the build worked but even then, the novelty doesn't last and I got very bored of the game as a whole until I started playing properly again. Looking back, I regret playing games in that manner because it was probably kind of disrespectful to my opponent and I stagnated skill-wise. I realized that normal play (by normal, I don't mean pure standard macro builds, just not the ridiculousness that I described earlier) against an opponent of similar skill is, for me, the most entertaining way of playing the game. I don't speak for everyone but I think that is why there are people who insist on playing on standard maps with standard comps and normal builds. It's not because they are obsessed but I think they genuinely find the game more gratifying that way. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
But if dazed would actually list some changes he wants to change up the meta that would be good. Or maybe start making a few maps himself. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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seriosity
United States214 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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seriosity
United States214 Posts
crazy map = sparkle/third world balance doesn't matter except at the very top ^^ | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On June 28 2019 22:55 seriosity wrote: asymmetrical map = elysion crazy map = sparkle/third world balance doesn't matter except at the very top ^^ huge limitations on map types and serious playstyle limitations on each balance matters at all levels, if it matters at the top it matters for all the levels below where you should play "like the top" to get better results quite likely, unless the top players are still doing something wrong its actually pretty simple, balance matters for the game, it doesn't matter which level you play it you're still playing the same game with the same balance problems^^ bw beats all other RTS easy, the closest I know would be AoE2 but tactically it's quite weak in comparison (which in turn has large implications on limits of strategy). Still bw actually has many limitations. my opinion of course | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 28 2019 04:07 Jealous wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On June 26 2019 07:23 ninazerg wrote: I feel a Castle-like reaction to your replies here, however, since we have to maintain a veneer of civility, I'd like to explain why I think you are wrong here. + Show Spoiler [Aesthetic spoiler] + What you are essentially forming here is an argumentative style called a "kafka trap", where the more someone disagrees with you, the more it affirms how correct you are. For example, if you said "Hey, we should buff scouts so more people would use scouts, and if you disagree with me, you're an elitist who clings to a hollow, stale meta" and I present a case against the buffing of scouts, you could respond with "See? You don't want to change the meta." That sort of thinking is counter-productive to making an argument in favor of something. I would possibly be able to discuss a potential balance change if you actually made one, but you have not done so. You've argued nothing in a lot of words, but did manage to get in some jabs at the imaginary "bw elitist" boogeyman that is supposedly ruining the game. You've presented us with your anecdotal story about your "8 irl friends" who were so into Brood War that they quit(?). I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do with this information. I don't know what anyone is supposed to do with this information. I mean, let's say everyone on this forum said "We're all in agreement: we need to make some arbitrary changes to the game." If for some reason Activision Blizzard even looked at this forum, they would still have to consider how that would change the game for the Korean gamers that comprise 99% of the population playing the game. I'll say this again: there is no evidence that balance changes will bring people into the game. The only thing that grows a game's audience is publicity, which can come by way of advertisements, viral marketing, word-of-mouth, and so on. I've played a bunch of games where there have been lots of balance changes, and for some reason, the population still goes down. If you want balance changes and a new meta, email Blizzard. It's that simple! Post on the Blizzard forums even. If you're feeling really obsessive, start stalking the developers in real life (my lawyer has advised me to say that's I'm kidding, and tell you not to do this). You may go "Well, they're gonna want the community to be behind those changes I propose.", and if you're saying this, then you should be trying to persuade the community to see what you see. Right now, you're calling everyone who disagrees with you 'elitist', 'part of a cult', 'someone who worships the game', 'reactionaries', 'fetishists', and so on. Not really good ways to win people over, I've found. I would highly recommend you change the way you communicate your ideas to the TL community, because so far, your current method does not seem to be working very well. I'd leave you with that, but I want to mention a few miscellaneous things: - DotA was a fluke. There are thousands of UMS maps that have not developed into their own games/genres. - If the statement "Only fanatics are left." is correct, then holy shit, what are you doing - You are more than welcome to make UMS maps with any balance changes you want. In fact, I encourage it. - When we're talking about the "meta", that applies almost exclusively to 1v1 games. A casual player is not going to do well in 1v1 games regardless of whether or not the meta changes, because they are a casual player. - Casual players will NEVER stick around no matter what, because they are casual players. - A small internet forum is not responsible for voluntarily growing a large corporation's game's player-base. If you have stuff that you want to discuss about the game's balance and meta, feel free to open a thread, and write out, in specific detail, what you'd like to see happen. Given our great success as an investigative team in the past, I thought the time was right to again combine your initial interest in a case with my The Stale Meta of Dazed's TL Posts First and foremost, it makes sense to map out a behavioral pattern for the poster in question. Due to the chief complaint seeming to be "stale meta" or "stale map pool," I have taken the liberty of searching for every time Dazed has used the word to try and capture a trend for the usage of the term. The first appearance of the term as used by Dazed in reference to Brood War was in April, 2008. It should be noted that Dazed had only been a member of TL for a month and change, and was already complaining about the staleness of the competitive map pool. This provides us with three possible pieces of information: 1. If nothing else, Dazed's opinion of the map pool/meta is consistent. His opinion that the map pool is stale predates the first pro-level game played on Fighting Spirit by well over a year. As this was the first ever usage of the term by Dazed, is it safe to say that Dazed's opinion is proven to be staler than Fighting Spirit? We'll explore this more below. 2. The first professional game played on Python was on June 10th, 2007, meaning that within the scope of less than a year, Dazed had already determined that Python is "stale." This hypothetically puts the shelf life of any given map at around ten months before it goes "stale." 3. Dazed has been unhappy with the state of competitive Brood War for years before the match-fixing scandal, the hybrid league, post-KeSPA lack of new maps, etc. He was hinting at his unhappiness within two months of joining TL in 2008. This equates to over 11 years of playing and watching a game in which you are fundamentally unhappy with the community consensus on core elements and its general direction. Misattributed quotes about insanity aside, one has to question whether the feeling of staleness that Dazed has experienced throughout the years grew exponentially over time, whether each new map did anything to allay those issues (for 10 months or so), so on and so forth. One thing can be said for certain, however, is that Dazed's decision to stay despite a seemingly perpetual state of discontent means that he must be pretty comfortable with misery, which explains his lack of inhibition in sharing it with others through his posts - or, he is an addict, and Brood War is his drug of choice. Could be both. This is actually turning into a pretty tragic case. New title. The Stale Tragedy of Dazed Did someone mention obsessive and fanatical? To address the earlier quandary about whether or not the "staleness" of the game (along with the nature of his posts) according to Dazed is exponential, the above graph demonstrates that it is indeed the case. Perhaps this stands to logic that as a piece of bread stays out on the counter longer and longer, it becomes more and more stale, until it is eventually moldy and inedible. When will Dazed reach that level with Brood War, after over 11 years of nibbling on ever-staler bread? When will the TL community reach that level with Dazed's posts about staleness? When will the staleception become too much? The outlook isn't good. My brief dive into Dazed's post history has unearthed what can only be described as a descent into madness combined with a caustic grumpy war veteran getting more and more fed up with his wife, to the point where civility has begun to elude him. Take a look at the progression (or regression?) of the rhetoric Dazed uses to cushion his claims of Brood War "staleness:" + Show Spoiler [The Descent] + On April 28 2008 11:42 Dazed. wrote: This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no? The first mention of the topic from Dazed, in a thread about a fan-made map. Here we see the beginnings of both the "staleness" trend, and the trend of Dazed bringing his opinion into vaguely related threads. The bread is fresh out of the bag at this point, and Dazed's post goes off without a hitch. Compare this with the following post, 10 years later: On August 29 2018 11:52 Dazed. wrote: if were gonna vent: started playing bw in 99 and started playing melee seriously in late 05. Never has the game been more stale in terms of the strategies people actually employ in the amateur scene, never has the scene been so stale both in map rotation and map type [can anyone honestly say fighting spirit is a distinct map from cb? im sorry they simply arent]. I thought unoriginal cookie cutter bitches who couldnt think their way out of a paper bag were a problem in 2007; I cant remember the last time I saw someone actually engage in creative thinking, least of all an original build. The issues of 2007 are magnified a million times. Stale games with macro bots who, in fact, have huge holes in their play because they only know one build, one map, no ability to deviate, no ability to think on their feet. Barely even a strategy game at this point. If i wanted mindless macro games I would of stuck to bgh. Notice the hostility, the self-righteous indignation which now consumes Dazed. Here are some more examples: On March 15 2018 07:10 Dazed. wrote: Have you played neo requiem? Not a balanced map, yet it isnt boring to play or watch, and the game play is hardly one dimensional. You dont know what your talking about. One major point of distinction is that in the kespa days the scene hadnt already ossified to the extent where the maps they were retaining had been there for an entire decade, nor were any of the standard maps simply replaceable without any real distinction--- cb and fs have their differences, to be sure, but they and maps of that era are some of the most bland, unoriginal, and similar maps in broodwar history. Played one, you played them all. And its been almost ten years. Ten years of staleness and you still have people complaining that change is happening too quickly. Genuinely pathetic. This post predates the former, and it shows a clear indicator of how severe the condition of cynicism has become in the afflicted. In March of 2018, he admits that CB and FS have their differences. Not even half a year later, he is challenging the TL population to "honestly say" that FS and CB are different maps. Within the span of a few months, Dazed has metaphorically gone from low key conversational racism to burning crosses. On March 15 2018 02:23 Dazed. wrote: Seems interesting. Finally we can move past the seven year stale boring ass meta game of FS and CB trash. I'd take anything over that. Another comment on a map thread. On August 03 2018 01:27 Dazed. wrote: Its awful. often laggy games, definitely never a consistent mmr. waste of time. bored of bw's stale meta anyway, ten years of the same maps. So long and thanks for all the fish! Predating the "venting" post by a few weeks, it seems that Dazed has had enough of Brood War and is moving on, using a famous Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote - which, for those that are unaware, alludes contextually to dolphins (who are more intelligent than humans in this series) leaving the Earth. Dazed, perched upon his high throne of peerless intelligence and analysis of the Brood War meta, is bidding us farewell! Bye Dazed! On August 04 2018 06:17 Dazed. wrote: +- 600 mmr with endless rematches, all on decades old maps that were stale and uninspired the day they were released: thats ladder. Yipeee!! Nevermind, 29 hours later Dazed is back to do some more bitching and moaning. Welcome back, I guess! One has to wonder, how many losses does Dazed rack up in between these posts, or at least shortly before them? On September 07 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote: my analysis: boring and stale. what a cock up given how great third world turned out. incompetents. In another map announcement thread, Dazed shares his peerless wisdom and insight on map making once more. If Dazed's posting habits are to be seen as caused by his perception of the game's/map pool's staleness, then that presents us with an undeniable proof: 1. The longer FS and CB are in the map pool, the exponentially more stale they are according to Dazed. 2. The more stale they are according to Dazed, the exponentially greater quantity and lower quality of posts will be made by Dazed about their staleness. 3. The more Dazed posts about their staleness, his posts grow exponentially more stale as a result. What we have here is a doubly exponential process. This gives us the following series of equations, and an alarming conclusion: diosmio.png For those of you not operating on near-Dazed levels of insight, this means that we will be rapidly approaching a singularity of staleness on TL as a result of Dazed's posts, unless FS and CB (and other "standard" "macro" maps) are expressly removed from the map pool. Considering this is entirely outside of our control, we have no option but to be idle observers of this catastrophe. On Consistency We have already addressed the fact that Dazed's opinion, since pre-FS times, has been unwavering. One thing we are missing from our current calculations, however, are all of the posts that allude to the deplorable state of affairs in the game that do not mention the word "stale." I have looked at Dazed's post history over the past 100 posts (~4 months), and have come up with an alarming statistic: If we exclude posts made in the Game of Thrones thread and the SC2 section, 53.75% of Dazed's posts allude to staleness in one way or another - 43 posts in total. The staleness grows... The number of posts he made alluding to the staleness of the game FAR outpace any non-Brood War content, and outpace the non-staleness discussion too. This includes throw-away posts like signing up for leagues, or simply saying "thank you," in response to someone as well. We are past the half-way point. The only question is whether Dazed will increase the ratio of stale to non-stale posts, divert more attention to making stale posts in favor of Game of Thrones posts, make more posts overall, or all three? As we determined above, the staleness has shown no signs of stopping, so at least one of the above are on our radar in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled. Let's take a breather for a moment and examine what happens when Dazed does make his stale posts. Do many of them go unanswered? Yes. I believe many posters have accepted that this is the natural state of things, that every topic that is even tangentially related to the state of Brood War will have a stale Dazed post in it, and that it is best to just ignore it. However, there have been times when people decided to call Dazed out on his assertions. Nina's post above is one example. At times, he has been addressed by numerous people (read on in the thread). One thing that has remained consistent about Dazed throughout these encounters where he gets btfo by players more knowledgeable than him, is that he just stops answering - he slithers away from whence he came, only to resurface a while later in a different thread, repeating the same things. He has done this when in other situations as well. I have personally asked him numerous times why he subjects himself to an environment in which he is unhappy, to no avail. In short, I think that given Dazed's consistency, Nina's queries will go unanswered. More specifically to the content of Nina's post and initial inquiry in to this case: Nina suggests that Dazed make a thread with specific changes that he would suggest that would cure the staleness of Brood War. Of course, he has never done so. In fact, he has never made any thread at all. So, to those who are waiting for Dazed to explain how to deal with the staleness of Brood War (and thus, offer us an escape from the inevitable staleness armageddon), I would say do not hold your breath. Finally, I would like to address a perplexing element of Dazed's remarkable consistency. Despite his statements claiming that the map pool hasn't significantly changed in 10 years, the options for Zerg have all been the same, and that the game is just generally stale, Dazed has not actually improved by any noticeable margin. This is evidenced by his continued participation in noob-oriented leagues for the vast majority of the past 10 years. This is by no means to shame any low level players out there - there is no shame in being a noob, even if you're a noob for 10 years. The main purpose is to raise a question. If everything is so stale, and we have determined that Dazed's staleness increases exponentially over time, shouldn't he be perfectly suited to this environment which he deplores? Is it perhaps the internal struggle of being stale but hating staleness that prevents him from unlocking his true powers and dominating the stale meta? Dare I say that this could all be borne of frustration from the staleness of his skill - losing in (seemingly) the same way every time for over a decade? Or is that the conundrum of staleness - that being more stale is equivalent to approaching a sort of baseline of staleness from which one can never escape? These are questions that unfortunately I do not have the qualifications to answer, but it is interesting to muse them nonetheless. Conclusions Dazed's spirit animal. TL;DR: The "Stale" Apocalypse is coming, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. And it's Dazed's fault. I actually had no idea he'd be going on about this for so long. I remember him being in noob leagues from a few years ago when there were those D/C leagues for iccup. I think I may have commentated on some of his games and from what I could gather, he had the right kinds of ideas about how to deal with different situations, but was hindered by poor mechanics and a general lack of direction in the late game. I know him more from what Stardom/Arya/LightningStrike has said, and if Stardom vouches for someone, I usually trust that they're pretty okay. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1183 Posts
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fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
On June 28 2019 04:07 Jealous wrote: Given our great success as an investigative team in the past, I thought the time was right to again combine your initial interest in a case with my The Stale Meta of Dazed's TL Posts First and foremost, it makes sense to map out a behavioral pattern for the poster in question. Due to the chief complaint seeming to be "stale meta" or "stale map pool," I have taken the liberty of searching for every time Dazed has used the word to try and capture a trend for the usage of the term. The first appearance of the term as used by Dazed in reference to Brood War was in April, 2008. It should be noted that Dazed had only been a member of TL for a month and change, and was already complaining about the staleness of the competitive map pool. This provides us with three possible pieces of information: 1. If nothing else, Dazed's opinion of the map pool/meta is consistent. His opinion that the map pool is stale predates the first pro-level game played on Fighting Spirit by well over a year. As this was the first ever usage of the term by Dazed, is it safe to say that Dazed's opinion is proven to be staler than Fighting Spirit? We'll explore this more below. 2. The first professional game played on Python was on June 10th, 2007, meaning that within the scope of less than a year, Dazed had already determined that Python is "stale." This hypothetically puts the shelf life of any given map at around ten months before it goes "stale." 3. Dazed has been unhappy with the state of competitive Brood War for years before the match-fixing scandal, the hybrid league, post-KeSPA lack of new maps, etc. He was hinting at his unhappiness within two months of joining TL in 2008. This equates to over 11 years of playing and watching a game in which you are fundamentally unhappy with the community consensus on core elements and its general direction. Misattributed quotes about insanity aside, one has to question whether the feeling of staleness that Dazed has experienced throughout the years grew exponentially over time, whether each new map did anything to allay those issues (for 10 months or so), so on and so forth. One thing can be said for certain, however, is that Dazed's decision to stay despite a seemingly perpetual state of discontent means that he must be pretty comfortable with misery, which explains his lack of inhibition in sharing it with others through his posts - or, he is an addict, and Brood War is his drug of choice. Could be both. This is actually turning into a pretty tragic case. New title. The Stale Tragedy of Dazed Did someone mention obsessive and fanatical? To address the earlier quandary about whether or not the "staleness" of the game (along with the nature of his posts) according to Dazed is exponential, the above graph demonstrates that it is indeed the case. Perhaps this stands to logic that as a piece of bread stays out on the counter longer and longer, it becomes more and more stale, until it is eventually moldy and inedible. When will Dazed reach that level with Brood War, after over 11 years of nibbling on ever-staler bread? When will the TL community reach that level with Dazed's posts about staleness? When will the staleception become too much? The outlook isn't good. My brief dive into Dazed's post history has unearthed what can only be described as a descent into madness combined with a caustic grumpy war veteran getting more and more fed up with his wife, to the point where civility has begun to elude him. Take a look at the progression (or regression?) of the rhetoric Dazed uses to cushion his claims of Brood War "staleness:" + Show Spoiler [The Descent] + On April 28 2008 11:42 Dazed. wrote: This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no? The first mention of the topic from Dazed, in a thread about a fan-made map. Here we see the beginnings of both the "staleness" trend, and the trend of Dazed bringing his opinion into vaguely related threads. The bread is fresh out of the bag at this point, and Dazed's post goes off without a hitch. Compare this with the following post, 10 years later: On August 29 2018 11:52 Dazed. wrote: if were gonna vent: started playing bw in 99 and started playing melee seriously in late 05. Never has the game been more stale in terms of the strategies people actually employ in the amateur scene, never has the scene been so stale both in map rotation and map type [can anyone honestly say fighting spirit is a distinct map from cb? im sorry they simply arent]. I thought unoriginal cookie cutter bitches who couldnt think their way out of a paper bag were a problem in 2007; I cant remember the last time I saw someone actually engage in creative thinking, least of all an original build. The issues of 2007 are magnified a million times. Stale games with macro bots who, in fact, have huge holes in their play because they only know one build, one map, no ability to deviate, no ability to think on their feet. Barely even a strategy game at this point. If i wanted mindless macro games I would of stuck to bgh. Notice the hostility, the self-righteous indignation which now consumes Dazed. Here are some more examples: On March 15 2018 07:10 Dazed. wrote: Have you played neo requiem? Not a balanced map, yet it isnt boring to play or watch, and the game play is hardly one dimensional. You dont know what your talking about. One major point of distinction is that in the kespa days the scene hadnt already ossified to the extent where the maps they were retaining had been there for an entire decade, nor were any of the standard maps simply replaceable without any real distinction--- cb and fs have their differences, to be sure, but they and maps of that era are some of the most bland, unoriginal, and similar maps in broodwar history. Played one, you played them all. And its been almost ten years. Ten years of staleness and you still have people complaining that change is happening too quickly. Genuinely pathetic. This post predates the former, and it shows a clear indicator of how severe the condition of cynicism has become in the afflicted. In March of 2018, he admits that CB and FS have their differences. Not even half a year later, he is challenging the TL population to "honestly say" that FS and CB are different maps. Within the span of a few months, Dazed has metaphorically gone from low key conversational racism to burning crosses. On March 15 2018 02:23 Dazed. wrote: Seems interesting. Finally we can move past the seven year stale boring ass meta game of FS and CB trash. I'd take anything over that. Another comment on a map thread. On August 03 2018 01:27 Dazed. wrote: Its awful. often laggy games, definitely never a consistent mmr. waste of time. bored of bw's stale meta anyway, ten years of the same maps. So long and thanks for all the fish! Predating the "venting" post by a few weeks, it seems that Dazed has had enough of Brood War and is moving on, using a famous Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote - which, for those that are unaware, alludes contextually to dolphins (who are more intelligent than humans in this series) leaving the Earth. Dazed, perched upon his high throne of peerless intelligence and analysis of the Brood War meta, is bidding us farewell! Bye Dazed! On August 04 2018 06:17 Dazed. wrote: +- 600 mmr with endless rematches, all on decades old maps that were stale and uninspired the day they were released: thats ladder. Yipeee!! Nevermind, 29 hours later Dazed is back to do some more bitching and moaning. Welcome back, I guess! One has to wonder, how many losses does Dazed rack up in between these posts, or at least shortly before them? On September 07 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote: my analysis: boring and stale. what a cock up given how great third world turned out. incompetents. In another map announcement thread, Dazed shares his peerless wisdom and insight on map making once more. If Dazed's posting habits are to be seen as caused by his perception of the game's/map pool's staleness, then that presents us with an undeniable proof: 1. The longer FS and CB are in the map pool, the exponentially more stale they are according to Dazed. 2. The more stale they are according to Dazed, the exponentially greater quantity and lower quality of posts will be made by Dazed about their staleness. 3. The more Dazed posts about their staleness, his posts grow exponentially more stale as a result. What we have here is a doubly exponential process. This gives us the following series of equations, and an alarming conclusion: diosmio.png For those of you not operating on near-Dazed levels of insight, this means that we will be rapidly approaching a singularity of staleness on TL as a result of Dazed's posts, unless FS and CB (and other "standard" "macro" maps) are expressly removed from the map pool. Considering this is entirely outside of our control, we have no option but to be idle observers of this catastrophe. On Consistency We have already addressed the fact that Dazed's opinion, since pre-FS times, has been unwavering. One thing we are missing from our current calculations, however, are all of the posts that allude to the deplorable state of affairs in the game that do not mention the word "stale." I have looked at Dazed's post history over the past 100 posts (~4 months), and have come up with an alarming statistic: If we exclude posts made in the Game of Thrones thread and the SC2 section, 53.75% of Dazed's posts allude to staleness in one way or another - 43 posts in total. The staleness grows... The number of posts he made alluding to the staleness of the game FAR outpace any non-Brood War content, and outpace the non-staleness discussion too. This includes throw-away posts like signing up for leagues, or simply saying "thank you," in response to someone as well. We are past the half-way point. The only question is whether Dazed will increase the ratio of stale to non-stale posts, divert more attention to making stale posts in favor of Game of Thrones posts, make more posts overall, or all three? As we determined above, the staleness has shown no signs of stopping, so at least one of the above are on our radar in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled. Let's take a breather for a moment and examine what happens when Dazed does make his stale posts. Do many of them go unanswered? Yes. I believe many posters have accepted that this is the natural state of things, that every topic that is even tangentially related to the state of Brood War will have a stale Dazed post in it, and that it is best to just ignore it. However, there have been times when people decided to call Dazed out on his assertions. Nina's post above is one example. At times, he has been addressed by numerous people (read on in the thread). One thing that has remained consistent about Dazed throughout these encounters where he gets btfo by players more knowledgeable than him, is that he just stops answering - he slithers away from whence he came, only to resurface a while later in a different thread, repeating the same things. He has done this when in other situations as well. I have personally asked him numerous times why he subjects himself to an environment in which he is unhappy, to no avail. In short, I think that given Dazed's consistency, Nina's queries will go unanswered. More specifically to the content of Nina's post and initial inquiry in to this case: Nina suggests that Dazed make a thread with specific changes that he would suggest that would cure the staleness of Brood War. Of course, he has never done so. In fact, he has never made any thread at all. So, to those who are waiting for Dazed to explain how to deal with the staleness of Brood War (and thus, offer us an escape from the inevitable staleness armageddon), I would say do not hold your breath. Finally, I would like to address a perplexing element of Dazed's remarkable consistency. Despite his statements claiming that the map pool hasn't significantly changed in 10 years, the options for Zerg have all been the same, and that the game is just generally stale, Dazed has not actually improved by any noticeable margin. This is evidenced by his continued participation in noob-oriented leagues for the vast majority of the past 10 years. This is by no means to shame any low level players out there - there is no shame in being a noob, even if you're a noob for 10 years. The main purpose is to raise a question. If everything is so stale, and we have determined that Dazed's staleness increases exponentially over time, shouldn't he be perfectly suited to this environment which he deplores? Is it perhaps the internal struggle of being stale but hating staleness that prevents him from unlocking his true powers and dominating the stale meta? Dare I say that this could all be borne of frustration from the staleness of his skill - losing in (seemingly) the same way every time for over a decade? Or is that the conundrum of staleness - that being more stale is equivalent to approaching a sort of baseline of staleness from which one can never escape? These are questions that unfortunately I do not have the qualifications to answer, but it is interesting to muse them nonetheless. Conclusions Dazed's spirit animal. TL;DR: The "Stale" Apocalypse is coming, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. And it's Dazed's fault. Hahahaha, this made me laugh out loud so much! Thank you very much for this post | ||
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iwanabana
26 Posts
Is gameplay visually clearer and less cluttered after Remastered HD Graphics? Sometimes I can't even tell a red zergling from a blue zergling, as many HD legs there are. And vultures lack the edge, hatcheries look duller...so on so forth. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1162 Posts
On July 09 2019 20:35 iwanabana wrote: The only poll i'd like to see is Is gameplay visually clearer and less cluttered after Remastered HD Graphics? Sometimes I can't even tell a red zergling from a blue zergling, as many HD legs there are. And vultures lack the edge, hatcheries look duller...so on so forth. just hit f5 and go back to the roots. I personally have no problems with HD - looks clearer and crispier on the monitors nowadays. Idk, if you are with Win XP and CRT monitor? | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On June 28 2019 22:32 ProMeTheus112 wrote: Dude. Dont speak heresy like that on this site. Jelous and some guy with a series of letters and numbers in his name will harass you, follow your post history through years, and send you pm's telling you to kill yourself. Heresy is SERIOUS on this site. Any suggestion of changing broodwar at all must be done in hushed whisper.i think ideally almost any type of map would be playable, such as open maps, maps without a natural, with a bunch of ramps to main, perhaps more different sizes, etc. Even if we're a bit crazy, assymetrical maps. And importantly, more strategies playable. But bw's balance isn't THAT good. Overall at this point I'm more interested in finding a new RTS game which doesn't yet exist. Still may play more bw. Protect thyself. On July 01 2019 13:08 art_of_turtle wrote: Anyone so obsessed with a video game as to think any change, however minor, is heretical, probably has a lot of...social problems... so it really shouldnt surprise anyone.Babo has a lot of time on his hands. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On July 09 2019 22:54 BlueStar wrote: just hit f5 and go back to the roots. I personally have no problems with HD - looks clearer and crispier on the monitors nowadays. Idk, if you are with Win XP and CRT monitor? Except the low graphics setting is strictly worse than 1.6 graphics. You get close-ish to old graphics using the right filter setting, but i still feel it's a downgrade. My pc is to old to handle hd settings btw, tho i like em. @dazed: if you received pm's with that content, thats a serious problem. Based on the exact context of what was written by whom; i'd consider forwarding it to a mod. Im just saying this in a general sense because i have no idea about the context of what you wrote there. | ||
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AntiHack
Switzerland553 Posts
On June 28 2019 04:07 Jealous wrote: Given our great success as an investigative team in the past, I thought the time was right to again combine your initial interest in a case with my The Stale Meta of Dazed's TL Posts First and foremost, it makes sense to map out a behavioral pattern for the poster in question. Due to the chief complaint seeming to be "stale meta" or "stale map pool," I have taken the liberty of searching for every time Dazed has used the word to try and capture a trend for the usage of the term. The first appearance of the term as used by Dazed in reference to Brood War was in April, 2008. It should be noted that Dazed had only been a member of TL for a month and change, and was already complaining about the staleness of the competitive map pool. This provides us with three possible pieces of information: 1. If nothing else, Dazed's opinion of the map pool/meta is consistent. His opinion that the map pool is stale predates the first pro-level game played on Fighting Spirit by well over a year. As this was the first ever usage of the term by Dazed, is it safe to say that Dazed's opinion is proven to be staler than Fighting Spirit? We'll explore this more below. 2. The first professional game played on Python was on June 10th, 2007, meaning that within the scope of less than a year, Dazed had already determined that Python is "stale." This hypothetically puts the shelf life of any given map at around ten months before it goes "stale." 3. Dazed has been unhappy with the state of competitive Brood War for years before the match-fixing scandal, the hybrid league, post-KeSPA lack of new maps, etc. He was hinting at his unhappiness within two months of joining TL in 2008. This equates to over 11 years of playing and watching a game in which you are fundamentally unhappy with the community consensus on core elements and its general direction. Misattributed quotes about insanity aside, one has to question whether the feeling of staleness that Dazed has experienced throughout the years grew exponentially over time, whether each new map did anything to allay those issues (for 10 months or so), so on and so forth. One thing can be said for certain, however, is that Dazed's decision to stay despite a seemingly perpetual state of discontent means that he must be pretty comfortable with misery, which explains his lack of inhibition in sharing it with others through his posts - or, he is an addict, and Brood War is his drug of choice. Could be both. This is actually turning into a pretty tragic case. New title. The Stale Tragedy of Dazed Did someone mention obsessive and fanatical? To address the earlier quandary about whether or not the "staleness" of the game (along with the nature of his posts) according to Dazed is exponential, the above graph demonstrates that it is indeed the case. Perhaps this stands to logic that as a piece of bread stays out on the counter longer and longer, it becomes more and more stale, until it is eventually moldy and inedible. When will Dazed reach that level with Brood War, after over 11 years of nibbling on ever-staler bread? When will the TL community reach that level with Dazed's posts about staleness? When will the staleception become too much? The outlook isn't good. My brief dive into Dazed's post history has unearthed what can only be described as a descent into madness combined with a caustic grumpy war veteran getting more and more fed up with his wife, to the point where civility has begun to elude him. Take a look at the progression (or regression?) of the rhetoric Dazed uses to cushion his claims of Brood War "staleness:" + Show Spoiler [The Descent] + On April 28 2008 11:42 Dazed. wrote: This looks very very fun. I hope ICCUP picks it up for the next season, or that I come across it at least once. I am tired of Python and other standard maps like that. It kind of gets stale, no? The first mention of the topic from Dazed, in a thread about a fan-made map. Here we see the beginnings of both the "staleness" trend, and the trend of Dazed bringing his opinion into vaguely related threads. The bread is fresh out of the bag at this point, and Dazed's post goes off without a hitch. Compare this with the following post, 10 years later: On August 29 2018 11:52 Dazed. wrote: if were gonna vent: started playing bw in 99 and started playing melee seriously in late 05. Never has the game been more stale in terms of the strategies people actually employ in the amateur scene, never has the scene been so stale both in map rotation and map type [can anyone honestly say fighting spirit is a distinct map from cb? im sorry they simply arent]. I thought unoriginal cookie cutter bitches who couldnt think their way out of a paper bag were a problem in 2007; I cant remember the last time I saw someone actually engage in creative thinking, least of all an original build. The issues of 2007 are magnified a million times. Stale games with macro bots who, in fact, have huge holes in their play because they only know one build, one map, no ability to deviate, no ability to think on their feet. Barely even a strategy game at this point. If i wanted mindless macro games I would of stuck to bgh. Notice the hostility, the self-righteous indignation which now consumes Dazed. Here are some more examples: On March 15 2018 07:10 Dazed. wrote: Have you played neo requiem? Not a balanced map, yet it isnt boring to play or watch, and the game play is hardly one dimensional. You dont know what your talking about. One major point of distinction is that in the kespa days the scene hadnt already ossified to the extent where the maps they were retaining had been there for an entire decade, nor were any of the standard maps simply replaceable without any real distinction--- cb and fs have their differences, to be sure, but they and maps of that era are some of the most bland, unoriginal, and similar maps in broodwar history. Played one, you played them all. And its been almost ten years. Ten years of staleness and you still have people complaining that change is happening too quickly. Genuinely pathetic. This post predates the former, and it shows a clear indicator of how severe the condition of cynicism has become in the afflicted. In March of 2018, he admits that CB and FS have their differences. Not even half a year later, he is challenging the TL population to "honestly say" that FS and CB are different maps. Within the span of a few months, Dazed has metaphorically gone from low key conversational racism to burning crosses. On March 15 2018 02:23 Dazed. wrote: Seems interesting. Finally we can move past the seven year stale boring ass meta game of FS and CB trash. I'd take anything over that. Another comment on a map thread. On August 03 2018 01:27 Dazed. wrote: Its awful. often laggy games, definitely never a consistent mmr. waste of time. bored of bw's stale meta anyway, ten years of the same maps. So long and thanks for all the fish! Predating the "venting" post by a few weeks, it seems that Dazed has had enough of Brood War and is moving on, using a famous Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy quote - which, for those that are unaware, alludes contextually to dolphins (who are more intelligent than humans in this series) leaving the Earth. Dazed, perched upon his high throne of peerless intelligence and analysis of the Brood War meta, is bidding us farewell! Bye Dazed! On August 04 2018 06:17 Dazed. wrote: +- 600 mmr with endless rematches, all on decades old maps that were stale and uninspired the day they were released: thats ladder. Yipeee!! Nevermind, 29 hours later Dazed is back to do some more bitching and moaning. Welcome back, I guess! One has to wonder, how many losses does Dazed rack up in between these posts, or at least shortly before them? On September 07 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote: my analysis: boring and stale. what a cock up given how great third world turned out. incompetents. In another map announcement thread, Dazed shares his peerless wisdom and insight on map making once more. If Dazed's posting habits are to be seen as caused by his perception of the game's/map pool's staleness, then that presents us with an undeniable proof: 1. The longer FS and CB are in the map pool, the exponentially more stale they are according to Dazed. 2. The more stale they are according to Dazed, the exponentially greater quantity and lower quality of posts will be made by Dazed about their staleness. 3. The more Dazed posts about their staleness, his posts grow exponentially more stale as a result. What we have here is a doubly exponential process. This gives us the following series of equations, and an alarming conclusion: diosmio.png For those of you not operating on near-Dazed levels of insight, this means that we will be rapidly approaching a singularity of staleness on TL as a result of Dazed's posts, unless FS and CB (and other "standard" "macro" maps) are expressly removed from the map pool. Considering this is entirely outside of our control, we have no option but to be idle observers of this catastrophe. On Consistency We have already addressed the fact that Dazed's opinion, since pre-FS times, has been unwavering. One thing we are missing from our current calculations, however, are all of the posts that allude to the deplorable state of affairs in the game that do not mention the word "stale." I have looked at Dazed's post history over the past 100 posts (~4 months), and have come up with an alarming statistic: If we exclude posts made in the Game of Thrones thread and the SC2 section, 53.75% of Dazed's posts allude to staleness in one way or another - 43 posts in total. The staleness grows... The number of posts he made alluding to the staleness of the game FAR outpace any non-Brood War content, and outpace the non-staleness discussion too. This includes throw-away posts like signing up for leagues, or simply saying "thank you," in response to someone as well. We are past the half-way point. The only question is whether Dazed will increase the ratio of stale to non-stale posts, divert more attention to making stale posts in favor of Game of Thrones posts, make more posts overall, or all three? As we determined above, the staleness has shown no signs of stopping, so at least one of the above are on our radar in the near future. Keep your eyes peeled. Let's take a breather for a moment and examine what happens when Dazed does make his stale posts. Do many of them go unanswered? Yes. I believe many posters have accepted that this is the natural state of things, that every topic that is even tangentially related to the state of Brood War will have a stale Dazed post in it, and that it is best to just ignore it. However, there have been times when people decided to call Dazed out on his assertions. Nina's post above is one example. At times, he has been addressed by numerous people (read on in the thread). One thing that has remained consistent about Dazed throughout these encounters where he gets btfo by players more knowledgeable than him, is that he just stops answering - he slithers away from whence he came, only to resurface a while later in a different thread, repeating the same things. He has done this when in other situations as well. I have personally asked him numerous times why he subjects himself to an environment in which he is unhappy, to no avail. In short, I think that given Dazed's consistency, Nina's queries will go unanswered. More specifically to the content of Nina's post and initial inquiry in to this case: Nina suggests that Dazed make a thread with specific changes that he would suggest that would cure the staleness of Brood War. Of course, he has never done so. In fact, he has never made any thread at all. So, to those who are waiting for Dazed to explain how to deal with the staleness of Brood War (and thus, offer us an escape from the inevitable staleness armageddon), I would say do not hold your breath. Finally, I would like to address a perplexing element of Dazed's remarkable consistency. Despite his statements claiming that the map pool hasn't significantly changed in 10 years, the options for Zerg have all been the same, and that the game is just generally stale, Dazed has not actually improved by any noticeable margin. This is evidenced by his continued participation in noob-oriented leagues for the vast majority of the past 10 years. This is by no means to shame any low level players out there - there is no shame in being a noob, even if you're a noob for 10 years. The main purpose is to raise a question. If everything is so stale, and we have determined that Dazed's staleness increases exponentially over time, shouldn't he be perfectly suited to this environment which he deplores? Is it perhaps the internal struggle of being stale but hating staleness that prevents him from unlocking his true powers and dominating the stale meta? Dare I say that this could all be borne of frustration from the staleness of his skill - losing in (seemingly) the same way every time for over a decade? Or is that the conundrum of staleness - that being more stale is equivalent to approaching a sort of baseline of staleness from which one can never escape? These are questions that unfortunately I do not have the qualifications to answer, but it is interesting to muse them nonetheless. Conclusions Dazed's spirit animal. TL;DR: The "Stale" Apocalypse is coming, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. And it's Dazed's fault. I got banned for fighting that mentally shaken troll once | ||
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Jealous
10107 Posts
On July 09 2019 23:26 Dazed. wrote: Dude. Dont speak heresy like that on this site. Jelous and some guy with a series of letters and numbers in his name will harass you, follow your post history through years, and send you pm's telling you to kill yourself. Heresy is SERIOUS on this site. Any suggestion of changing broodwar at all must be done in hushed whisper. Protect thyself. Anyone so obsessed with a video game as to think any change, however minor, is heretical, probably has a lot of...social problems... so it really shouldnt surprise anyone. Sir, I have never harassed you or sent you a PM telling you to kill yourself or anything even remotely similar to this. Please keep your lies to yourself. As for "following your post history through years," I believe this, like many of the things you say is just poorly written, because it implies that I specifically followed your posts for years when in reality I just took an hour to look back throughout the years of posts you've made. I wasn't aware that you had been whining about the same thing for over a decade when I started this project. So immediately after flaunting your persecution complex, you accuse me of having "social problems" because I think that a game shouldn't arbitrarily change? Careful Dazed, you're skirting that line again! I'm sorry that I conclusively proved that your opinion is more stale than Fighting Spirit, I know that must have stung. By the way, what were those changes that you thought would save us from the stalepocalypse again? Care to share your proposed patch notes? | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49785 Posts
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