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ALLEYCAT BLUES49776 Posts
On March 19 2019 18:17 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
I would love to see more DA for protoss against zerg. I think it is the most underused unit in BW, actually. Looking at the potential this unit has, especially in mid and late game scenarios. But it is a matter of build order and creativity and not balance per se.
DAs are used more often now then they have ever been in the matchup.
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Bisutopia19201 Posts
On March 19 2019 21:42 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 18:17 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
I would love to see more DA for protoss against zerg. I think it is the most underused unit in BW, actually. Looking at the potential this unit has, especially in mid and late game scenarios. But it is a matter of build order and creativity and not balance per se. DAs are used more often now then they have ever been in the matchup.
With the half priced DA trick, we could possibly see them even more too.
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Мy two cents:
Protoss:
Dark Archon - should start with 75 energy so it can be more reactionary useful, its spells are actually powerful enough imo
Scout - this unit is dogshit, but give it a detection upgrade in the cybernetic and will also be used as a reactionary in some situations, it will never substitute the observer but it will allow protoss to delay expensive observer tech when he needs the early resources for other units
Scout2 - If the scouts start with both upgrades or at least the speed one already researched, then I think it will be used in some early starts both vs terran and zerg, it kills overlords way faster than corsairs and if it can dances with the scourges and also kill some drones or scvs it will be used imo
Terran:
Ghost - As someone said, it should start with the invis upgrade or at least the nuke range upgrade, anything that will speed up the process. The nukes are too slow imo, they are also expensive, but for what they do, they should be expensive, but it takes forever to get them online and ready with everything necessary for them to work. Maybe the nuke addon should also build faster
Zerg:
Queen: Should start with 75 energy, this unit also needs to be faster reactionary unit. Otherwise its spells are all right imo
Infested Terran: This might be a bit too much and will also buff the queen usage, but queen should be able to infest both terran barracks and protoss gateways to produce it. However, the protoss getaway could not be moved around the map like the terran buildings
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On March 19 2019 21:42 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2019 18:17 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
I would love to see more DA for protoss against zerg. I think it is the most underused unit in BW, actually. Looking at the potential this unit has, especially in mid and late game scenarios. But it is a matter of build order and creativity and not balance per se. DAs are used more often now then they have ever been in the matchup.
True, true. And I love that. But it should be used even more, imo. Also - maybe DA's in shuttles vs Vessels would be a good idea? I think I've seen this play in BeSt vs Mong @ Whiteout or some other PvT of BeSt.. That actually worked amazingly well for him, so I would love to see it being tried more.
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Queens aren't even underused anymore. They haven't been since like 2010. Ghosts are rare, but they are useful against carriers, not because you're going to get sick SlayerS`BoxeR 12 carrier lockdown splits of doom, but because you'll snipe one carrier here and there. It's an instant kill. They're good enough. If you want to use them, you can, at the highest level. There are also maps that let you nuke an enemey expansion from safety, like Match Point. Don't buff ghosts. Don't buff Terran.
Nukes outside of those maps are rare, but there are legitimate nuke rush strategies vs Zerg, especially on maps with free inside expansions. NaDa almost made it work against Larva in ASL. With better micro, it really could have worked, and he would have won. I also used to have a nuke rush counter vs fast DT builds. If I had started going for a dropship build and I got DT rushed, I'd reactively drop a medic, vulture, and ghost, and bring along a vessel. I blinded the observer, used EMP on the nexus, laid some mines, and nuked the nexus. I always won with it, 100% of the time (because I only did it reactively vs DT rushes when I had already started going for a dropship build).
The only balance changes I'm open minded to is making maelstrom last slightly longer, and making mind control cheaper to research, although dark archons are already useful in every match up as it is, but that's because of feedback.
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Hi, i'm a game designer and I love SC. Those are my suggestions:
- Scouts: i don't like the idea to make them a detector, this role is already of the observer. Also, this would destroy the balance of the game. Anyway, i think it could have a role as a "scout" in pvz. Note that pvz is commonly considered slightly z favored, so it could be a good idea. The idea is to promote the scout to be build as the first air unit, instead of the first corsair. For that to be viablewe need:
1)45 production time (from 50)
2) both upgrades are baseline
In this way the scout moves as fast as a corsair and scout even better (10 vision vs 9 vision). In addition, the scout is FAR better killing overlords, and can also harrass drones. As a protoss, it could be convenient to open with 1 scout, and then mass sairs if you want.
Note that those buffs don't make scouts viable in pvt or pvp anyway, but only in pvz.
- Ghosts: I find the only possible way to buff it is to give it a very small buff, like Ocular Implants baseline, otherwise they can divent too strong (for the same reason i won't touch the nuke).
- Queen: already in the meta, (even esnare and parasite are used), don't touch it.
- Infested Terran: maybe a faster production time, like 15 instead of 25, could help to spam a lot of them.
What do you think? See ya! 
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Bisutopia19201 Posts
On March 20 2019 02:09 Liquid`Drone wrote:do not buff ensnare. It's a fantastic ability as it is. People not using it is on them, not on the queen. (That goes for all things queen. Parasite it amazing, period. Parasite zvp is the most underused ability in the game. Broodling is occasionally great. Ensnare is all around really good both zvt and zvp. Well it's even better zvz but there you can't afford them.  ) The scout exists in such a fine tuned balance that any buff that makes it viable would probably make it occasionally OP, so don't touch that either. infested terrans however do suck, and I say that as a person who has built them in literally hundreds of games. You could change their cost, even making them completely free provided you have infested a command center, and it wouldn't make any impactful difference. Like I think if you take every game where I have built infested terrans, and the infested terrans I built had costed 0/0 in all of those games, I'm not sure it would have changed the outcome even once. (mostly because I'm already winning when I build infested terrans, but the main issue is that they usually just don't connect. ) And I wouldn't mind decreasing nuke supply cost to 4 and cost of the nuke itself to 100-100. So basically don't change anything.
So what you really mean is infested terran should have +10 armor
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Sorry OP, you dont understand the community. There are players who have literally said, and argued, and I genuinely think honestly believe, that starcraft is flawless. And theres a whole continuum of this, people who might not think broodwar is literally flawless, but its virtually flawless and ANY change is an unacceptable risk. Hell, you want to patch out a literal glitch? How dare you sir, dont you know broodwar is the greatest rts ever CONCEIVED????
So no. No matter the case, how rational, how conservative, however well thought out-- this is not a gaming community. This is a church, and you are in a cult. Repeat after me. Broodwar is perfect we can not patch it! Broodwar is perfect we CAN NOT PATCH IT! The scout exists in such a fine tuned balance that any buff that makes it viable would probably make it occasionally OP, so don't touch that either. Humans split the atom, but fuck, balancing the scout? Give us another millenia of development, and then maybe we will be ready for such a herculean task.
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On March 20 2019 02:25 Dazed. wrote:Sorry OP, you dont understand the community. There are players who have literally said, and argued, and I genuinely think honestly believe, that starcraft is flawless. And theres a whole continuum of this, people who might not think broodwar is literally flawless, but its virtually flawless and ANY change is an unacceptable risk. Hell, you want to patch out a literal glitch? How dare you sir, dont you know broodwar is the greatest rts ever CONCEIVED???? So no. No matter the case, how rational, how conservative, however well thought out-- this is not a gaming community. This is a church, and you are in a cult. Repeat after me. Broodwar is perfect we can not patch it! Broodwar is perfect we CAN NOT PATCH IT! Show nested quote +The scout exists in such a fine tuned balance that any buff that makes it viable would probably make it occasionally OP, so don't touch that either. Humans split the atom, but fuck, balancing the scout? Give us another millenia of development, and then maybe we will be ready for such a herculean task.
You're always simplifying reality in a way that makes your opponents look bad. I would make plenty of changes to StarCraft, and I am sure that many other players of the conservative persuasion would fix errors, too, so long as those errors don't improve the game. There are a few of those left.
In addition to the changes I listed above, I would fix the error of units getting stuck when attacking moving targets, I would fix the occasional problem of units getting stuck on certain ramps, like the infamous 12 o clock ramp on fighting spirit, and I would add one more bookmark, to the F1 key (controversial, but I would do it)
But on the topic of the scout, people like you want to take away the hype of people winning with scouts. People like me don't want scouts to be used every game, or to be viable in every situation. We want tools that only rarely, through elite skill and creativity, win games. There was a game on Colosseum during the kespa era that was only won due to scouts. The Protoss had gone for a fast expansion and was contained by a 2 facting terran. His solution: scouts. The Protoss was Kal. I don't remember who the Terran was.Anyway, he was not messing around because he had already won. He was in deep trouble, and he won with scouts.
If scouts become a common occurrence, then it won't be as exciting when things like that happen.
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Croatia9489 Posts
On March 20 2019 02:25 Dazed. wrote:Sorry OP, you dont understand the community. There are players who have literally said, and argued, and I genuinely think honestly believe, that starcraft is flawless. And theres a whole continuum of this, people who might not think broodwar is literally flawless, but its virtually flawless and ANY change is an unacceptable risk. Hell, you want to patch out a literal glitch? How dare you sir, dont you know broodwar is the greatest rts ever CONCEIVED???? So no. No matter the case, how rational, how conservative, however well thought out-- this is not a gaming community. This is a church, and you are in a cult. Repeat after me. Broodwar is perfect we can not patch it! Broodwar is perfect we CAN NOT PATCH IT! Show nested quote +The scout exists in such a fine tuned balance that any buff that makes it viable would probably make it occasionally OP, so don't touch that either. Humans split the atom, but fuck, balancing the scout? Give us another millenia of development, and then maybe we will be ready for such a herculean task.
I'm not sure if anyone considers Brood War virtually flawless, but at this point if you change anything in BW balance-wise, you make BW not BW. And people like BW.
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Norway28585 Posts
Don't be silly. There's no conflict between 'isn't perfect' and 'you can't meaningfully change attributes of a single unit without creating unforeseen distortions'.
If you decrease the scout cost by 5 minerals, it won't break the game. It also won't make any meaningful difference. Have scouts start with the speed upgrade? Could have an impact we don't yet understand (1 scout into 3 gate goon was already a fairly powerful pvz cheese on certain maps.) It could spell doom for guardian transitions in zvp - 1 microed speed scout with cannon backing means scourge can't touch it. (whereas currently 1 scout is useless to handle those because it'll just get scourged).
And while I'm not claiming brood war is perfect, I am arguing that the balance is the best out of any video game there is, and I'm arguing that a large part of this stems from the fact that there hasn't been a balance patch for almost 19 years. Making any changes to any unit is either going to be virtually meaningless (in the event where you give a small boost to an obviously underpowered/too expensive unit, making it still underpowered/too expensive, just less so), or potentially meta-breaking (in the event where you give a bigger boost to a similar unit to make it actually viable.)
Perhaps you want to change people's approach to the game. I don't. I think the fact that it's been the same game for 19 years is precisely part of what has made it so damn advanced. The degree of strategic development we see in brood war is only possible in an unchanging game. It does come with the drawback that new strategies virtually never occur, and that new tactical developments need a keenly trained eye to even be noticed, but I don't want to make the trade. It doesn't mean I think 'the game is perfect' or that it's a cult or any of the other ridiculous things you said.
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On March 19 2019 21:29 BisuDagger wrote:
If SCVs can repair air units then they should have an air attack. Glad I got that off my chest.
Yeah that's always irked me a little, I can only presume that the air units in question fly lower to be repaired even though we don't see it 
Also, high templars appear to be a floating unit yet they trigger mines 
As for the underused units, I think they should be left exactly as they are, you would probably find that altering them slightly would make them too powerful and ruin balance.
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I'm in the leave most of them be category. To get them into even into a niche role means buffing them, which will necessarily screw up balance if it's strong enough to be used.
Infested terran is probably the only one that it almost doesn't matter. Could be free on a 1 minute spawn timer and I doubt you'd see more than a couple times each season, and even more rarely have it decide a game.
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Here are bunch of my thoughts:
Scouts: I do not consider scout detection ability good idea. Nowadays (this is so funny word in case of BroodWar) you see robo and get to think "observers or reavers?". If scout gets detection , robo would mean reavers 90% of time. So no.
However I would like to see scouts more useful. Not as attacking unit, but as a scouting unit. I could imagine some "temporary parasite" ability, like 15 secs of shared vision of attacked unit (unless burrowed). Or an ability to land and become ground unit until cancelled. Of course with this ability, the air and ground attack points should swap. The time needed for switch should be the same as the time taken for lurkers to burrow.
Infested terran: it is like the zerg nuke, very fast and quite easy to kill. Don't change it. Perhaps more maps with cc to infest
Ghost: The ability of ghost that should be promoted is lockdown. Why is it underused? Too expensive? Perhaps. 75 for lockdown could be an option to investigate. OR, maybe noone cares about ghosts unless going nukes, because they are poor shooters. So an alternative is to increase ghost attack a tiny bit (C'mon if DT has 40 attack and 30 cooldown, ghost could do better than 10/22. 15 perhaps?). This would encourage incorporating more ghosts into army.
Queens: Parasite is great in casual games. Ensnare - less so, but still it is a good ability. The main problem with queens lies in the enormous time needed to get enough energy to broodling tanks. Zerg risks a lot while banking such an energy with control group of queens. This is a supply excluded from game for long. Templars wait 25 energy to get their first chance to storm. Vessels wait 50 energy to get an insta-kill of irradiate. Queen waiting 100 energy to broodling a tank is way too long. There are two possible solutions:
- increase starting queen energy or
- lower energy needed to broodling.
Accepting solution 1 requires to alter also other queen abilities costs. If queen starts with (say) 75 energy ensnare is immediate, we have muta-queen micro instead of just muta micro, and terran is in shambles. Just get enough queens.
Accepting solution 2 seems reasonable way to shorten queen "recharging time" I personally would like to pay 100E for a broodling. OR 125E if it can broodling a reaver or archon.
There is also an alternative solution to broodling problem - leave it at 150E, but make it range spell (enough to get 2 adjacent tanks).
Now, lets do proper UMSes, practice it for like 5 to 10 years and then decide whether to put it into game. What we know now, the game balance is near perfect. What we don't know, is whether changes would spoil it, or could be incorporated by new meta. So I say, let's try it. If anything we'd have some fun.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On March 20 2019 03:30 Amui wrote:
I'm in the leave most of them be category. To get them into even into a niche role means buffing them, which will necessarily screw up balance if it's strong enough to be used.
Infested terran is probably the only one that it almost doesn't matter. Could be free on a 1 minute spawn timer and I doubt you'd see more than a couple times each season, and even more rarely have it decide a game.
Indeed. The game stats are fine as is. I'd rather we didn't risk it with Blizzard's track record. Best thing to do is have more wacky maps that force different strats out much like ASL has been doing. I mean, we even saw bio terran vs protoss in ASL6 and we saw ghosts vs corsairs in ASL4.
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On March 20 2019 03:38 shaggles wrote:Here are bunch of my thoughts: Scouts: I do not consider scout detection ability good idea. Nowadays (this is so funny word in case of BroodWar) you see robo and get to think "observers or reavers?". If scout gets detection , robo would mean reavers 90% of time. So no. However I would like to see scouts more useful. Not as attacking unit, but as a scouting unit. I could imagine some "temporary parasite" ability, like 15 secs of shared vision of attacked unit (unless burrowed). Or an ability to land and become ground unit until cancelled. Of course with this ability, the air and ground attack points should swap. The time needed for switch should be the same as the time taken for lurkers to burrow. Infested terran: it is like the zerg nuke, very fast and quite easy to kill. Don't change it. Perhaps more maps with cc to infest Ghost: The ability of ghost that should be promoted is lockdown. Why is it underused? Too expensive? Perhaps. 75 for lockdown could be an option to investigate. OR, maybe noone cares about ghosts unless going nukes, because they are poor shooters. So an alternative is to increase ghost attack a tiny bit (C'mon if DT has 40 attack and 30 cooldown, ghost could do better than 10/22. 15 perhaps?). This would encourage incorporating more ghosts into army. Queens: Parasite is great in casual games. Ensnare - less so, but still it is a good ability. The main problem with queens lies in the enormous time needed to get enough energy to broodling tanks. Zerg risks a lot while banking such an energy with control group of queens. This is a supply excluded from game for long. Templars wait 25 energy to get their first chance to storm. Vessels wait 50 energy to get an insta-kill of irradiate. Queen waiting 100 energy to broodling a tank is way too long. There are two possible solutions: - increase starting queen energy or - lower energy needed to broodling. Accepting solution 1 requires to alter also other queen abilities costs. If queen starts with (say) 75 energy ensnare is immediate, we have muta-queen micro instead of just muta micro, and terran is in shambles. Just get enough queens. Accepting solution 2 seems reasonable way to shorten queen "recharging time" I personally would like to pay 100E for a broodling. OR 125E if it can broodling a reaver or archon. There is also an alternative solution to broodling problem - leave it at 150E, but make it range spell (enough to get 2 adjacent tanks). Now, lets do proper UMSes, practice it for like 5 to 10 years and then decide whether to put it into game. What we know now, the game balance is near perfect. What we don't know, is whether changes would spoil it, or could be incorporated by new meta. So I say, let's try it. If anything we'd have some fun.
But people use queens against mech all of the time. It's not even rare.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On March 20 2019 04:20 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2019 03:38 shaggles wrote:Here are bunch of my thoughts: Scouts: I do not consider scout detection ability good idea. Nowadays (this is so funny word in case of BroodWar) you see robo and get to think "observers or reavers?". If scout gets detection , robo would mean reavers 90% of time. So no. However I would like to see scouts more useful. Not as attacking unit, but as a scouting unit. I could imagine some "temporary parasite" ability, like 15 secs of shared vision of attacked unit (unless burrowed). Or an ability to land and become ground unit until cancelled. Of course with this ability, the air and ground attack points should swap. The time needed for switch should be the same as the time taken for lurkers to burrow. Infested terran: it is like the zerg nuke, very fast and quite easy to kill. Don't change it. Perhaps more maps with cc to infest Ghost: The ability of ghost that should be promoted is lockdown. Why is it underused? Too expensive? Perhaps. 75 for lockdown could be an option to investigate. OR, maybe noone cares about ghosts unless going nukes, because they are poor shooters. So an alternative is to increase ghost attack a tiny bit (C'mon if DT has 40 attack and 30 cooldown, ghost could do better than 10/22. 15 perhaps?). This would encourage incorporating more ghosts into army. Queens: Parasite is great in casual games. Ensnare - less so, but still it is a good ability. The main problem with queens lies in the enormous time needed to get enough energy to broodling tanks. Zerg risks a lot while banking such an energy with control group of queens. This is a supply excluded from game for long. Templars wait 25 energy to get their first chance to storm. Vessels wait 50 energy to get an insta-kill of irradiate. Queen waiting 100 energy to broodling a tank is way too long. There are two possible solutions: - increase starting queen energy or - lower energy needed to broodling. Accepting solution 1 requires to alter also other queen abilities costs. If queen starts with (say) 75 energy ensnare is immediate, we have muta-queen micro instead of just muta micro, and terran is in shambles. Just get enough queens. Accepting solution 2 seems reasonable way to shorten queen "recharging time" I personally would like to pay 100E for a broodling. OR 125E if it can broodling a reaver or archon. There is also an alternative solution to broodling problem - leave it at 150E, but make it range spell (enough to get 2 adjacent tanks). Now, lets do proper UMSes, practice it for like 5 to 10 years and then decide whether to put it into game. What we know now, the game balance is near perfect. What we don't know, is whether changes would spoil it, or could be incorporated by new meta. So I say, let's try it. If anything we'd have some fun. But people use queens against mech all of the time. It's not even rare.
Indeed and we've had the best Terrans such as Flash and Last losing to queens in long drawn out macro games so trying to buff broodling is insanity imo because queens already see just enough use that they don't need a fix.
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On March 20 2019 02:25 Dazed. wrote:Sorry OP, you dont understand the community. There are players who have literally said, and argued, and I genuinely think honestly believe, that starcraft is flawless. And theres a whole continuum of this, people who might not think broodwar is literally flawless, but its virtually flawless and ANY change is an unacceptable risk. Hell, you want to patch out a literal glitch? How dare you sir, dont you know broodwar is the greatest rts ever CONCEIVED???? So no. No matter the case, how rational, how conservative, however well thought out-- this is not a gaming community. This is a church, and you are in a cult. Repeat after me. Broodwar is perfect we can not patch it! Broodwar is perfect we CAN NOT PATCH IT! Show nested quote +The scout exists in such a fine tuned balance that any buff that makes it viable would probably make it occasionally OP, so don't touch that either. Humans split the atom, but fuck, balancing the scout? Give us another millenia of development, and then maybe we will be ready for such a herculean task.
I don't understand why you stick around at this point given the sheer* amount of posts you make that are exactly like this. It's as if that is your main motivator at this point.
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Has anyone ever made any UMS maps with small balance changes, and gotten pros to play on them? I don't think there should be any official balance changes, but I admit I'd be curious to see what that would look like.
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