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Venezuela political situation/humanitarian Crisis - Page 3

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JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 04:37 GMT
#41
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 05:00:32
January 30 2019 04:45 GMT
#42
On January 30 2019 13:37 JimmiC wrote:
Also please dont make up that it is anyone but Maduro stopping fair and free elections, that olive branch was publicly offered and rejected.


It's not made up it's just unlikely you've heard from the opposition to Maduro that doesn't support the coup.




Also, I find your opinion that keeping the military officials him and chavez selected and groomed corrupt and stealing billions from the people (probably more then the profit a private company would take) is somehow justifiable because otherwise the US would buy them off distasteful, completely not socialist and logically incongruent.


This goes back to the misunderstanding I was pointing out before. I'm not here to argue it's justified, I'm telling you that the US and west has no place doing what it's doing and all evidence supports them making it worse.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 05:06 GMT
#43
--- Nuked ---
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 05:15 GMT
#44
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 06:27:32
January 30 2019 05:28 GMT
#45
On January 30 2019 14:15 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2019 13:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 30 2019 13:37 JimmiC wrote:
Also please dont make up that it is anyone but Maduro stopping fair and free elections, that olive branch was publicly offered and rejected.


It's not made up it's just unlikely you've heard from the opposition to Maduro that doesn't support the coup.

https://youtu.be/vEAh08WALAM


Also, I find your opinion that keeping the military officials him and chavez selected and groomed corrupt and stealing billions from the people (probably more then the profit a private company would take) is somehow justifiable because otherwise the US would buy them off distasteful, completely not socialist and logically incongruent.


This goes back to the misunderstanding I was pointing out before. I'm not here to argue it's justified, I'm telling you that the US and west has no place doing what it's doing and all evidence supports them making it worse.


None of that video is related to you acting as though maduro didnt reject the call for elections.


I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

And that tgis guys believes that maduro is the rightful president in spite of the unfair elections. Others believe different.


But you seem to only hear from the opposition that supports the coup, so much so, you didn't even know about the pleas from the Former Spanish prime minister to the opposition to not pursue a coup and instead pursue the proper channels (as was mentioned in the video).

And you are still dodging my point that if maduro could win so easy why wouldnt he just do it and shut the world up?

It's more complicated than I'm willing to explain, you can think I'm talking out of my ass if you wish on that one.

I'll just mention: 86% of Venezuelans Oppose Military Intervention, 81% Against US Sanctions, Local Polling Shows and you're asking me how the guy opposing military intervention could beat the guy calling for it if they don't recognize he's in charge.

Also please stop posting opinion videos of people who agree with your opinion. Would it change your mind if I posted an opinion video of someone who disagrees? And posting the same video again is also pointless.


I'm happy to replace/amend it with some of the reporting from or about (preferably an interview with) Maduro's opposition that doesn't support the coup you've been reading/watching.

A mainstream corporate outlet with an interview including Maduro's opposition that doesn't support the coup would be ideal.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 14:24:35
January 30 2019 14:22 GMT
#46
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 15:27:09
January 30 2019 14:33 GMT
#47
On January 30 2019 23:22 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 30 2019 14:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 30 2019 14:15 JimmiC wrote:
On January 30 2019 13:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 30 2019 13:37 JimmiC wrote:
Also please dont make up that it is anyone but Maduro stopping fair and free elections, that olive branch was publicly offered and rejected.


It's not made up it's just unlikely you've heard from the opposition to Maduro that doesn't support the coup.

https://youtu.be/vEAh08WALAM


Also, I find your opinion that keeping the military officials him and chavez selected and groomed corrupt and stealing billions from the people (probably more then the profit a private company would take) is somehow justifiable because otherwise the US would buy them off distasteful, completely not socialist and logically incongruent.


This goes back to the misunderstanding I was pointing out before. I'm not here to argue it's justified, I'm telling you that the US and west has no place doing what it's doing and all evidence supports them making it worse.


None of that video is related to you acting as though maduro didnt reject the call for elections.


I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

And that tgis guys believes that maduro is the rightful president in spite of the unfair elections. Others believe different.


But you seem to only hear from the opposition that supports the coup, so much so, you didn't even know about the pleas from the Former Spanish prime minister to the opposition to not pursue a coup and instead pursue the proper channels (as was mentioned in the video).

And you are still dodging my point that if maduro could win so easy why wouldnt he just do it and shut the world up?

It's more complicated than I'm willing to explain, you can think I'm talking out of my ass if you wish on that one.

I'll just mention: 86% of Venezuelans Oppose Military Intervention, 81% Against US Sanctions, Local Polling Shows and you're asking me how the guy opposing military intervention could beat the guy calling for it if they don't recognize he's in charge.

Also please stop posting opinion videos of people who agree with your opinion. Would it change your mind if I posted an opinion video of someone who disagrees? And posting the same video again is also pointless.


I'm happy to replace/amend it with some of the reporting from or about (preferably an interview with) Maduro's opposition that doesn't support the coup you've been reading/watching.

A mainstream corporate outlet with an interview including Maduro's opposition that doesn't support the coup would be ideal.



We were talking about an election not a plebiscite on military intervention. You seem to think I'm pro Guiodro because of his affiliation with anyone. I'm not pro him for any reason other than he claims he will hold elections and restore the constitution and the courts. Then the people can make their choices,

You are so invested in making this all about the US because of your hatred for them is both counter productive and tiring.


lol I don't think you're pro Guaido at least not consciously. I think you're mostly just stubborn and personally invested in being right on this no matter what I show you.

Your tunnel vision has been so bad you have, even in this thread, accused me of making things up simply because you didn't know about it.

Why didn't you know about it?

The same reason you didn't post reporting or interviews with opposition to Maduro that don't support the coup. (this is important btw)

I'm not making this about the US because of "my hatred for them", you're starting to sound even more like the lead up to Iraq.

"You don't support the coup invasion, well obviously you're anti-American and pro-Saddam!".
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 15:32:12
January 30 2019 15:29 GMT
#48
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 16:02:46
January 30 2019 15:33 GMT
#49
On January 31 2019 00:29 JimmiC wrote:
The irony of your post is stunning. If you go back to the OP I posted lots of info against it. I even used many of your articles. Until you source some of your bold claims like US sanctions crippled the economy. With actual info about the sanctions (which I have provided you over and over and wouldn't cripple an economy). You can just stay away, you have your own blog where you can spread your theories and treat them as fact. I've been very patient and asked multiple times for specific sources about specific things. That an opposition party is for Maduro doesn't matter, if you have noticed most opposition parties just pick the opposite position. And it is more opinion base stuff, which has a place of course just stop treating opinions that agree with you as fact.

This Blog was not meant for it to be about you. And to have you hijack it to insult me. I'm trying to post both sides and I have made it clear that I believe it is best for Venezuela to hold elections. If you have problems with this statement or the one above. And problems providing sources to your opinions you hold as facts please just post else where. Thank you.

Now on too what is going on. In great news Maduro has offered to negotiate with the opposition. Who knows if this is in good faith or if the opposition will accept but it is the first positive thing I have read in some time.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela-s-maduro-offers-to-negotiate-with-opposition-1.4998318

Here is an opinion piece from the NPR that it wasn't external forces that caused it.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/30/689286896/opinion-foreign-forces-did-not-start-venezuelas-transition-venezuela-did


You still don't understand.

Those aren't voices of the opposition to Maduro that don't support a coup.

You need to think on why you can't find them.

Maduro has been open to talks.

“They intend to put a puppet government in Venezuela, destroy the state and take colonial control of the country.”

But he added that he was still willing to talk with the opposition even if he “had to go naked.”


www.washingtonpost.com Jan 25

EDIT: I was wondering why this was supposed to be big news reported near everywhere today

+ Show Spoiler +


Now I get it.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 16:07 GMT
#50
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 16:10:15
January 30 2019 16:09 GMT
#51
On January 31 2019 01:07 JimmiC wrote:
I can find them, I have found them and discussed them.


No, you literally can't and haven't.

Great, I hope he is actually willing to discuss having actual elections, releasing the political prisoners, ending the mass corruption he managed.


He has been but you just found out about it and still don't see the problem?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 16:34:39
January 30 2019 16:33 GMT
#52
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 17:07:56
January 30 2019 16:42 GMT
#53
On January 31 2019 01:33 JimmiC wrote:
Yes, I have been scroll up and check back on the Pm''s before. They were related to the purchasing of Debt and to the sale of arms.


Whether you've attempted to dismiss the examples I've provided (to your protest) is a separate issue to whether you have provided ANY voices of opposition to Maduro that don't support the coup.

The plainly visible fact is that you haven't. Despite me providing a poll showing 84% of Venezuelans want dialogue that the opposition repeatedly refuses or walks away from and has now secured the support of US government/military in a coup but still won't accept talks.

I mean hell you haven't even read the stuff in your own OP


"We will continue denouncing US lies, and I will continue to encourage national dialogue because I am up for a dialogue with all the political opposition, with the opposition media," he said. "I think dialogue should prevail. I believe in dialogue."


Source:

On January 29 2019 05:58 JimmiC wrote:
Madruo says that this a US conspiricy

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/27/americas/venezuela-maduro-us-coup-accusation/index.html

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 17:19 GMT
#54
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 17:36:57
January 30 2019 17:23 GMT
#55
On January 31 2019 02:19 JimmiC wrote:
You seem to be missing my point about talking and meaningful talking. Everything that the world and Venezuelans have asked for is on the table and easy for Maduro to do. But he won't so what is it that he wants to discuss? He already said he will not hold elections, or release political prisoners. As I mentioned, North Korea will always talk. And yes I don't nail every piece of information every time about who says what.

And you keep ignoring the fact that they did have a still biased for Maduro but not as bad election (he hadn't locked up the leadership yet) and he lost 70% of the riding's.

This is going to be the last time I ask you politely to stop treating your assumptions like facts and treating this blog like it's yours. This is meant to be a discussion and information about what is happening in Venezuela not GH strokes his ego while being a dick to Jim because he won't agree with his conspiracy theory that it is all because of the US.


That is not all addressing my argument that the opposition coup (as opposed to the opposition to Maduro that opposes the coup) is the party (supported by the US) that is refusing to talk. You just blame Maduro and call it a conspiracy.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6209 Posts
January 30 2019 17:41 GMT
#56
On January 31 2019 00:29 JimmiC wrote:
The irony of your post is stunning. If you go back to the OP I posted lots of info against it. I even used many of your articles. Until you source some of your bold claims like US sanctions crippled the economy. With actual info about the sanctions (which I have provided you over and over and wouldn't cripple an economy). You can just stay away, you have your own blog where you can spread your theories and treat them as fact. I've been very patient and asked multiple times for specific sources about specific things. That an opposition party is for Maduro doesn't matter, if you have noticed most opposition parties just pick the opposite position. And it is more opinion base stuff, which has a place of course just stop treating opinions that agree with you as fact.

This Blog was not meant for it to be about you. And to have you hijack it to insult me. I'm trying to post both sides and I have made it clear that I believe it is best for Venezuela to hold elections. If you have problems with this statement or the one above. And problems providing sources to your opinions you hold as facts please just post else where. Thank you.

Now on too what is going on. In great news Maduro has offered to negotiate with the opposition. Who knows if this is in good faith or if the opposition will accept but it is the first positive thing I have read in some time.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela-s-maduro-offers-to-negotiate-with-opposition-1.4998318

Here is an opinion piece from the NPR that it wasn't external forces that caused it.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/30/689286896/opinion-foreign-forces-did-not-start-venezuelas-transition-venezuela-did

Not sure if it matters. There have already been talks with the Vatican involved. In the end Maduro used the talks to buy time and divide the opposition. I doubt anything will be different this time.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 17:48:30
January 30 2019 17:45 GMT
#57
On January 31 2019 02:41 RvB wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 31 2019 00:29 JimmiC wrote:
The irony of your post is stunning. If you go back to the OP I posted lots of info against it. I even used many of your articles. Until you source some of your bold claims like US sanctions crippled the economy. With actual info about the sanctions (which I have provided you over and over and wouldn't cripple an economy). You can just stay away, you have your own blog where you can spread your theories and treat them as fact. I've been very patient and asked multiple times for specific sources about specific things. That an opposition party is for Maduro doesn't matter, if you have noticed most opposition parties just pick the opposite position. And it is more opinion base stuff, which has a place of course just stop treating opinions that agree with you as fact.

This Blog was not meant for it to be about you. And to have you hijack it to insult me. I'm trying to post both sides and I have made it clear that I believe it is best for Venezuela to hold elections. If you have problems with this statement or the one above. And problems providing sources to your opinions you hold as facts please just post else where. Thank you.

Now on too what is going on. In great news Maduro has offered to negotiate with the opposition. Who knows if this is in good faith or if the opposition will accept but it is the first positive thing I have read in some time.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela-s-maduro-offers-to-negotiate-with-opposition-1.4998318

Here is an opinion piece from the NPR that it wasn't external forces that caused it.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/30/689286896/opinion-foreign-forces-did-not-start-venezuelas-transition-venezuela-did

Not sure if it matters. There have already been talks with the Vatican involved. In the end Maduro used the talks to buy time and divide the opposition. I doubt anything will be different this time.


That talks can't work and will be used to divide opposition is an argument. The question remains, where are those voices? Because the Venezuelan people overwhelmingly want more (even if claimed fruitless) talks over the alternative.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 18:00 GMT
#58
--- Nuked ---
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 30 2019 18:05 GMT
#59
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-30 18:14:58
January 30 2019 18:07 GMT
#60
On January 31 2019 03:00 JimmiC wrote:
You seem to THINK the only alternative is military invasion. It is not that is your bias and assumptions talking while you ignore or create major facts to fit your narrative. He could call elections like the rest of the world has asked is an option. He could release the political prisoners, both the leadership of the opposition or all the protesters (sadly he can't unkill the opposition and protesters he has but it is what it is) as an act of good faith to lead to discussions.

Making it seem like having bad faith discussions or war are the only two options only fits your narrative and does not fit with reality.

This you last warning, move on or move off. Thanks.


lol

I mean, I'm pretty sure you have and are making the argument Maduro holding legitimate elections (without international observers) is impossible. Because he had elections boycotted kinda (like talks despite pleas from the Former Spanish PM) and has been wanting to talk with the opposition and opposition media.

So then, can talks for legitimate elections be had or not?

Because, accepting your argument about sanctions, the US is certainly trying to finish off the Venezuelan economy now.

The measure blocks about $7 billion in assets and would result in more than $11 billion in lost assets over the next year, Bolton said.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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