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It is also interesting you bring up leader who trump likes. Because basically all of those strongmen dictators you talk about that Trump likes, they support Maduro not Guairdo or elections!
Who did you think I was talking about? Because I don't see them on that list. At least not supporting Maduro.
As far as my assumptions some of them are assumptions, but most are presumptions. That's why something like Bolton saying we're trying to take possession of their oil or the coordination with the US and Canada are things I can predict before the news is public. Because that's how these things work. It's like watching Bob Ross paint, I can't tell you exactly what it'll look like at the end but I can bet you there will probably be some "happy trees", water, and/or a mountain.
This seems to be one of your first times watching him paint.
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On January 30 2019 08:09 JimmiC wrote:
I assumed you meant Erdogan and Putin, since he loves those two.
No I meant the US allies like King Salman (a literal king), Bolsonaro, Márquez, Duterte, Netanyahu, those guys.
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On January 30 2019 08:56 JimmiC wrote:
Goto be specific with Trump he seems to pretty much love every dictator other than Maduro lol.
So why do you think he dislikes Maduro so much he's willing to entertain military intervention to remove him?
(worth asking more generally why they have bipartisan support in the US but that's another topic)
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In case people missed this:
The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.
Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.
“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”.
US Sanctions are illegal under international law
On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.
In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.
“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.
“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.
The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme.
www.independent.co.uk
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On January 30 2019 10:28 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 09:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 08:56 JimmiC wrote:
Goto be specific with Trump he seems to pretty much love every dictator other than Maduro lol. So why do you think he dislikes Maduro so much he's willing to entertain military intervention to remove him? (worth asking more generally why they have bipartisan support in the US but that's another topic) I would think because it is a huge humanitarian crisis pretty close to the borders creating instability and millions of refugee's. And there is legit chances of overthrowing him right now.
You can't believe Trump cares at all about the humanitarian crisis when he turned a blind eye to SA chopping up a journalist that lived in the US so he could keep selling them weapons that are being dropped on kids in school buses and hospitals on purpose while starving the population in what experts are calling the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, do you?
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On January 30 2019 10:54 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:In case people missed this: The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.
Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.
“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”. US Sanctions are illegal under international law On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.
In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.
“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.
“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.
The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme. www.independent.co.uk That is a interesting read I'm still looking for more info on what the sanctions actually were. Because even in the article I only find that it was not selling them arms (which hurts the US since they simply just bought from Russia) and then not being able to buy and sell debt from Their national Oil company (which is also counter to the point that they are trying to steal the oil. Since china and Russian bought that debt and now control the oil fields). I also thought this was a pretty big quote from the article you left out. Show nested quote +
The Maduro government is responsible for “the worst human rights crisis in the country’s history,” according to Amnesty.
“Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,” Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty’s Americas director, said in late 2018
“It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.”
. And this statement makes me wonder how much about the situation he understands since until last week the US had never sanctioned their natural resources Show nested quote +Mr De Zayas recommended dialogue between the international community and Venezuelans to make their government better, rather than squeezing the country with sanctions and backing coups. He proposed that Venezuela’s abundant natural wealth can help it recover once sanctions are lifted. Perhaps this quote is more accurate than you would like it to be Show nested quote +Ivan Briscoe, Latin America and Caribbean programme director for Crisis Group, an international NGO, told The Independent that Venezuela is a polarising subject, dividing those who support the socialist government and those who want to see a more US-aligned business friendly regime replace it.
Briscoe is critical of Mr de Zayas’s report because it highlights US economic warfare but in his view neglects to mention the impact of a difficult business environment in the country which he believes is a symptom of “Chavismo” and the socialist governments’ failures.
He said even if the sanctions are lifted, the country could not recover under current government policies, adding that Mr de Zayas’s report is the result of a “lawyer trying to understand the nature of supply and demand, and it didn’t quite work”.
oi.
I left it out because it wasn't necessary when that argument has been made multiple times here already and if people read it they would see it anyway. Surely with all that in there and the authors acknowledgements it would be comparable to other perspectives offered and not painted as partisan propaganda (especially considering virtually nothing remotely comparable is found in most western reporting of the other perspectives, including people that oppose Maduro and the coup) but alas...
Let me ask you this.
Would it be worse to give Venezuela food, economic aid (by removing sanctions), in exchange for the type of fair elections "the world" wants or to go to war in Venezuela?
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On January 30 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 08:56 JimmiC wrote:
Goto be specific with Trump he seems to pretty much love every dictator other than Maduro lol. So why do you think he dislikes Maduro so much he's willing to entertain military intervention to remove him? (worth asking more generally why they have bipartisan support in the US but that's another topic) I would think because it is a huge humanitarian crisis pretty close to the borders creating instability and millions of refugee's. And there is legit chances of overthrowing him right now. You can't believe Trump cares at all about the humanitarian crisis when he turned a blind eye to SA chopping up a journalist that lived in the US so he could keep selling them weapons that are being dropped on kids in school buses and hospitals on purpose while starving the population in what experts are calling the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, do you? I think Trump cares only about the US and you seem to have only read part of my sentence. I clearly said it was because it close to the boarders creating instability there and millions of refugee's. If you haven't noticed he's not a big fan of those or people making caravans to the boarder. I also pointed out that this has a legitimate chance of working, is there such a option in SA? I don't think so because even with their level of corruption they have managed not to squander the wealth from a smaller oil supply (isn't that bonkers how rich and powerful the Saudi's are based only on Oil and Venezuela has more and is in such a mess?) What I find very odd is how obsessed you are with what Trump or members of the US think in general. I think what is going on in SA is disgusting and am glad my government has started to take a stand against it. I also personally think it is horrible and disgusting and hope those people lose power. Much like I feel like Madruo. You on the other hand are some how completely OK with everything awful Maduro has done to his people because it is in the name of socialism, because other people are doing worse things? It's the same argument that kids make over and over "but Johnny did it even worse" "But little billy, were not talking about Johnny right now we are talking about you. And what you did is wrong".
Your argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding that I oppose US imperialist interventionism because of Maduro, it's not. You also seem to think I support those other brutal US allies because I oppose imperialist intervention in their countries as well.
The issue I'm trying to bring to your attention is that you need to connect the reasons why we (despite what Canada has said they still support SA plenty btw) would support a horrific, beheading, child bombing, journalist chopping up, theocratic monarchy and want to go to war (if we have to) with Maduro.
If you want to argue it's because SA repression is more profitable and harder to overthrow I won't disagree with you but that's not an argument to threaten to invade Venezuela as an option to not bowing to demands that could easily be achieved diplomatically.
That even mentioning the "humanitarian" interest is utter bullshit.
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On January 30 2019 11:44 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 11:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:54 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:In case people missed this: The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.
Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.
“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”. US Sanctions are illegal under international law On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.
In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.
“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.
“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.
The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme. www.independent.co.uk That is a interesting read I'm still looking for more info on what the sanctions actually were. Because even in the article I only find that it was not selling them arms (which hurts the US since they simply just bought from Russia) and then not being able to buy and sell debt from Their national Oil company (which is also counter to the point that they are trying to steal the oil. Since china and Russian bought that debt and now control the oil fields). I also thought this was a pretty big quote from the article you left out.
The Maduro government is responsible for “the worst human rights crisis in the country’s history,” according to Amnesty.
“Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,” Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty’s Americas director, said in late 2018
“It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.”
. And this statement makes me wonder how much about the situation he understands since until last week the US had never sanctioned their natural resources Mr De Zayas recommended dialogue between the international community and Venezuelans to make their government better, rather than squeezing the country with sanctions and backing coups. He proposed that Venezuela’s abundant natural wealth can help it recover once sanctions are lifted. Perhaps this quote is more accurate than you would like it to be Ivan Briscoe, Latin America and Caribbean programme director for Crisis Group, an international NGO, told The Independent that Venezuela is a polarising subject, dividing those who support the socialist government and those who want to see a more US-aligned business friendly regime replace it.
Briscoe is critical of Mr de Zayas’s report because it highlights US economic warfare but in his view neglects to mention the impact of a difficult business environment in the country which he believes is a symptom of “Chavismo” and the socialist governments’ failures.
He said even if the sanctions are lifted, the country could not recover under current government policies, adding that Mr de Zayas’s report is the result of a “lawyer trying to understand the nature of supply and demand, and it didn’t quite work”. oi. I left it out because it wasn't necessary when that argument has been made multiple times here already and if people read it they would see it anyway. Surely with all that in there and the authors acknowledgements it would be comparable to other perspectives offered and not painted as partisan propaganda (especially considering virtually nothing remotely comparable is found in most western reporting of the other perspectives, including people that oppose Maduro and the coup) but alas... Let me ask you this. Would it be worse to give Venezuela food, economic aid (by removing sanctions), in exchange for the type of fair elections "the world" wants or to go to war in Venezuela? I would be completely behind that. And that seems to be exactly what is on the table.
Behind war
or
declaring the coup "no harm no foul" and then make arrangements for aid conditional on election reforms supported by the domestic groups (pro and anti maduro)?
Because as far as I know the second option isn't on the table?
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On January 30 2019 11:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 11:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 08:56 JimmiC wrote:
Goto be specific with Trump he seems to pretty much love every dictator other than Maduro lol. So why do you think he dislikes Maduro so much he's willing to entertain military intervention to remove him? (worth asking more generally why they have bipartisan support in the US but that's another topic) I would think because it is a huge humanitarian crisis pretty close to the borders creating instability and millions of refugee's. And there is legit chances of overthrowing him right now. You can't believe Trump cares at all about the humanitarian crisis when he turned a blind eye to SA chopping up a journalist that lived in the US so he could keep selling them weapons that are being dropped on kids in school buses and hospitals on purpose while starving the population in what experts are calling the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, do you? I think Trump cares only about the US and you seem to have only read part of my sentence. I clearly said it was because it close to the boarders creating instability there and millions of refugee's. If you haven't noticed he's not a big fan of those or people making caravans to the boarder. I also pointed out that this has a legitimate chance of working, is there such a option in SA? I don't think so because even with their level of corruption they have managed not to squander the wealth from a smaller oil supply (isn't that bonkers how rich and powerful the Saudi's are based only on Oil and Venezuela has more and is in such a mess?) What I find very odd is how obsessed you are with what Trump or members of the US think in general. I think what is going on in SA is disgusting and am glad my government has started to take a stand against it. I also personally think it is horrible and disgusting and hope those people lose power. Much like I feel like Madruo. You on the other hand are some how completely OK with everything awful Maduro has done to his people because it is in the name of socialism, because other people are doing worse things? It's the same argument that kids make over and over "but Johnny did it even worse" "But little billy, were not talking about Johnny right now we are talking about you. And what you did is wrong". Your argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding that I oppose US imperialist interventionism because of Maduro, it's not. You also seem to think I support those other brutal US allies because I oppose imperialist intervention in their countries as well. The issue I'm trying to bring to your attention is that you need to connect the reasons why we (despite what Canada has said they still support SA plenty btw) would support a horrific, beheading, child bombing, journalist chopping up, theocratic monarchy and want to go to war (if we have to) with Maduro. If you want to argue it's because SA repression is more profitable and harder to overthrow I won't disagree with you but that's not an argument to threaten to invade Venezuela as an option to not bowing to demands that could easily be achieved diplomatically. That even mentioning the "humanitarian" interest is utter bullshit. How exactly could they be achieved Diplomatically?
Well with minimal aid and lifting of sanctions, the crisis evaporates. Then instead of a crisis you then have a relatively small country that needs reform, less than plenty of our allies, but certainly needs reform. You then work towards things like international observers (though the cases for vote irregularities reminded me of the democratic primary but again another topic), and maybe even amnesty for those who plotted the coup on terms.
The immediacy isn't caused by there not being an alternative that prevents suffering, but still holds Maduro accountable, it's trying to get in too deep before the public pieces all this together (think Iraq).
If you can remove Maduro then any instability can be blamed on any opposition to domination and you can have the Elliot Abrams of the US oversee another set of horrific atrocities and war crimes and not be held accountable.
On January 30 2019 11:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 11:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 11:44 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 11:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:54 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:In case people missed this: The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.
Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.
“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”. US Sanctions are illegal under international law On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.
In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.
“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.
“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.
The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme. www.independent.co.uk That is a interesting read I'm still looking for more info on what the sanctions actually were. Because even in the article I only find that it was not selling them arms (which hurts the US since they simply just bought from Russia) and then not being able to buy and sell debt from Their national Oil company (which is also counter to the point that they are trying to steal the oil. Since china and Russian bought that debt and now control the oil fields). I also thought this was a pretty big quote from the article you left out.
The Maduro government is responsible for “the worst human rights crisis in the country’s history,” according to Amnesty.
“Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,” Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty’s Americas director, said in late 2018
“It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.”
. And this statement makes me wonder how much about the situation he understands since until last week the US had never sanctioned their natural resources Mr De Zayas recommended dialogue between the international community and Venezuelans to make their government better, rather than squeezing the country with sanctions and backing coups. He proposed that Venezuela’s abundant natural wealth can help it recover once sanctions are lifted. Perhaps this quote is more accurate than you would like it to be Ivan Briscoe, Latin America and Caribbean programme director for Crisis Group, an international NGO, told The Independent that Venezuela is a polarising subject, dividing those who support the socialist government and those who want to see a more US-aligned business friendly regime replace it.
Briscoe is critical of Mr de Zayas’s report because it highlights US economic warfare but in his view neglects to mention the impact of a difficult business environment in the country which he believes is a symptom of “Chavismo” and the socialist governments’ failures.
He said even if the sanctions are lifted, the country could not recover under current government policies, adding that Mr de Zayas’s report is the result of a “lawyer trying to understand the nature of supply and demand, and it didn’t quite work”. oi. I left it out because it wasn't necessary when that argument has been made multiple times here already and if people read it they would see it anyway. Surely with all that in there and the authors acknowledgements it would be comparable to other perspectives offered and not painted as partisan propaganda (especially considering virtually nothing remotely comparable is found in most western reporting of the other perspectives, including people that oppose Maduro and the coup) but alas... Let me ask you this. Would it be worse to give Venezuela food, economic aid (by removing sanctions), in exchange for the type of fair elections "the world" wants or to go to war in Venezuela? I would be completely behind that. And that seems to be exactly what is on the table. Behind war or declaring the coup "no harm no foul" and then make arrangements for aid conditional on election reforms supported by the domestic groups (pro and anti maduro)? Because as far as I know the second option isn't on the table? Did you skip a ton of reading on what the EU proposed? That was the whole 8 days to set a date for an election thing. Now would the US agree, who knows, and who cares since Maduro will not agree. My guess is it is because he knows he will lose badly. Otherwise he should agree and then the US would have no choice because their whole argument (as unjust as you think it is) would evaporate. Show nested quote +"If within eight days there are no fair, free and transparent elections called in Venezuela, Spain will recognise Juan Guaido as Venezuelan president," Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said in a televised announcement on Saturday.
U diplomatic chief Federica Mogherini also called for fresh elections.
"In the absence of an announcement on the organisation of fresh elections with the necessary guarantees over the next days, the EU will take further actions, including on the issue of recognition of the country's leadership," Mogherini said in a statement.
"Unless elections are announced within eight days, we will be ready to recognise @jguaido as 'President in charge' of Venezuela in order to trigger a political process," Macron said on his Twitter feed.
Uh, it's too late the US already recognized jguaido? If Maduro stepped down and jguaido never has a clean election, then what? Europe going to invade the US or Venezuela to remove our puppet?
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On January 30 2019 12:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2019 12:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 11:52 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 11:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 11:00 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 10:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:28 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 08:56 JimmiC wrote:
Goto be specific with Trump he seems to pretty much love every dictator other than Maduro lol. So why do you think he dislikes Maduro so much he's willing to entertain military intervention to remove him? (worth asking more generally why they have bipartisan support in the US but that's another topic) I would think because it is a huge humanitarian crisis pretty close to the borders creating instability and millions of refugee's. And there is legit chances of overthrowing him right now. You can't believe Trump cares at all about the humanitarian crisis when he turned a blind eye to SA chopping up a journalist that lived in the US so he could keep selling them weapons that are being dropped on kids in school buses and hospitals on purpose while starving the population in what experts are calling the worst humanitarian crisis in the world, do you? I think Trump cares only about the US and you seem to have only read part of my sentence. I clearly said it was because it close to the boarders creating instability there and millions of refugee's. If you haven't noticed he's not a big fan of those or people making caravans to the boarder. I also pointed out that this has a legitimate chance of working, is there such a option in SA? I don't think so because even with their level of corruption they have managed not to squander the wealth from a smaller oil supply (isn't that bonkers how rich and powerful the Saudi's are based only on Oil and Venezuela has more and is in such a mess?) What I find very odd is how obsessed you are with what Trump or members of the US think in general. I think what is going on in SA is disgusting and am glad my government has started to take a stand against it. I also personally think it is horrible and disgusting and hope those people lose power. Much like I feel like Madruo. You on the other hand are some how completely OK with everything awful Maduro has done to his people because it is in the name of socialism, because other people are doing worse things? It's the same argument that kids make over and over "but Johnny did it even worse" "But little billy, were not talking about Johnny right now we are talking about you. And what you did is wrong". Your argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding that I oppose US imperialist interventionism because of Maduro, it's not. You also seem to think I support those other brutal US allies because I oppose imperialist intervention in their countries as well. The issue I'm trying to bring to your attention is that you need to connect the reasons why we (despite what Canada has said they still support SA plenty btw) would support a horrific, beheading, child bombing, journalist chopping up, theocratic monarchy and want to go to war (if we have to) with Maduro. If you want to argue it's because SA repression is more profitable and harder to overthrow I won't disagree with you but that's not an argument to threaten to invade Venezuela as an option to not bowing to demands that could easily be achieved diplomatically. That even mentioning the "humanitarian" interest is utter bullshit. How exactly could they be achieved Diplomatically? Well with minimal aid and lifting of sanctions, the crisis evaporates. Then instead of a crisis you then have a relatively small country that needs reform, less than plenty of our allies, but certainly needs reform. You then work towards things like international observers (though the cases for vote irregularities reminded me of the democratic primary but again another topic), and maybe even amnesty for those who plotted the coup on terms. The immediacy isn't caused by there not being an alternative that prevents suffering, but still holds Maduro accountable, it's trying to get in too deep before the public pieces all this together (think Iraq). If you can remove Maduro then any instability can be blamed on any opposition to domination and you can have the Elliot Abrams of the US oversee another set of horrific atrocities and war crimes and not be held accountable. On January 30 2019 11:55 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 11:49 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 11:44 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 11:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 30 2019 10:54 JimmiC wrote:On January 30 2019 09:46 GreenHorizons wrote:In case people missed this: The first UN rapporteur to visit Venezuela for 21 years has told The Independent the US sanctions on the country are illegal and could amount to “crimes against humanity” under international law.
Former special rapporteur Alfred de Zayas, who finished his term at the UN in March, has criticized the US for engaging in “economic warfare” against Venezuela which he said is hurting the economy and killing Venezuelans.
Mr De Zayas, a former secretary of the UN Human Rights Council (HRC) and an expert in international law, spoke to The Independent following the presentation of his Venezuela report to the HRC in September. He said that since its presentation the report has been ignored by the UN and has not sparked the public debate he believes it deserves.
“Sanctions kill,” he told The Independent, adding that they fall most heavily on the poorest people in society, demonstrably cause death through food and medicine shortages, lead to violations of human rights and are aimed at coercing economic change in a “sister democracy”. US Sanctions are illegal under international law On his fact-finding mission to the country in late 2017, he found internal overdependence on oil, poor governance and corruption had hit the Venezuelan economy hard, but said “economic warfare” practised by the US, EU and Canada are significant factors in the economic crisis.
In the report, Mr de Zayas recommended, among other actions, that the International Criminal Court investigate economic sanctions against Venezuela as possible crimes against humanity under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
The US sanctions are illegal under international law because they were not endorsed by the UN Security Council, Mr de Zayas, an expert on international law and a former senior lawyer with the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, said.
“Modern-day economic sanctions and blockades are comparable with medieval sieges of towns.
“Twenty-first century sanctions attempt to bring not just a town, but sovereign countries to their knees,” Mr de Zayas said in his report.
The US Treasury has not responded to a request for comment on Mr de Zayas’s allegations of the effects of the sanctions programme. www.independent.co.uk That is a interesting read I'm still looking for more info on what the sanctions actually were. Because even in the article I only find that it was not selling them arms (which hurts the US since they simply just bought from Russia) and then not being able to buy and sell debt from Their national Oil company (which is also counter to the point that they are trying to steal the oil. Since china and Russian bought that debt and now control the oil fields). I also thought this was a pretty big quote from the article you left out.
The Maduro government is responsible for “the worst human rights crisis in the country’s history,” according to Amnesty.
“Venezuela is going through one of the worst human rights crises in its history. The list of crimes under international law against the population is growing,” Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty’s Americas director, said in late 2018
“It is alarming that, instead of applying efficient public policies to protect people and reduce levels of insecurity, the Venezuelan authorities are using the language of war to try to legitimise the use of excessive force by police and military officials and, in many cases, the use of lethal force with intent to kill.”
. And this statement makes me wonder how much about the situation he understands since until last week the US had never sanctioned their natural resources Mr De Zayas recommended dialogue between the international community and Venezuelans to make their government better, rather than squeezing the country with sanctions and backing coups. He proposed that Venezuela’s abundant natural wealth can help it recover once sanctions are lifted. Perhaps this quote is more accurate than you would like it to be Ivan Briscoe, Latin America and Caribbean programme director for Crisis Group, an international NGO, told The Independent that Venezuela is a polarising subject, dividing those who support the socialist government and those who want to see a more US-aligned business friendly regime replace it.
Briscoe is critical of Mr de Zayas’s report because it highlights US economic warfare but in his view neglects to mention the impact of a difficult business environment in the country which he believes is a symptom of “Chavismo” and the socialist governments’ failures.
He said even if the sanctions are lifted, the country could not recover under current government policies, adding that Mr de Zayas’s report is the result of a “lawyer trying to understand the nature of supply and demand, and it didn’t quite work”. oi. I left it out because it wasn't necessary when that argument has been made multiple times here already and if people read it they would see it anyway. Surely with all that in there and the authors acknowledgements it would be comparable to other perspectives offered and not painted as partisan propaganda (especially considering virtually nothing remotely comparable is found in most western reporting of the other perspectives, including people that oppose Maduro and the coup) but alas... Let me ask you this. Would it be worse to give Venezuela food, economic aid (by removing sanctions), in exchange for the type of fair elections "the world" wants or to go to war in Venezuela? I would be completely behind that. And that seems to be exactly what is on the table. Behind war or declaring the coup "no harm no foul" and then make arrangements for aid conditional on election reforms supported by the domestic groups (pro and anti maduro)? Because as far as I know the second option isn't on the table? Did you skip a ton of reading on what the EU proposed? That was the whole 8 days to set a date for an election thing. Now would the US agree, who knows, and who cares since Maduro will not agree. My guess is it is because he knows he will lose badly. Otherwise he should agree and then the US would have no choice because their whole argument (as unjust as you think it is) would evaporate. "If within eight days there are no fair, free and transparent elections called in Venezuela, Spain will recognise Juan Guaido as Venezuelan president," Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez said in a televised announcement on Saturday.
U diplomatic chief Federica Mogherini also called for fresh elections.
"In the absence of an announcement on the organisation of fresh elections with the necessary guarantees over the next days, the EU will take further actions, including on the issue of recognition of the country's leadership," Mogherini said in a statement.
"Unless elections are announced within eight days, we will be ready to recognise @jguaido as 'President in charge' of Venezuela in order to trigger a political process," Macron said on his Twitter feed.
Uh, it's too late the US already recognized jguaido? If Maduro stepped down and jguaido never has a clean election, then what? Europe going to invade the US or Venezuela to remove our puppet? Are you under the impression that when the US names him that it is so? Because if that was the case Maduro would just be gone, hell Chavez would have been gone when things were going well and his brand of socialism was a threat and not an epic failure. Or do you really think Madruo says "yes EU and other nations I will hold elections and will call them right now". The US would go "fuck you world its Guaido or bust and now were invading, despite this guy doing what Guaido says he is going to do to bring back legitimacy." I mean the US would look even worse and they actually might get world wide resistance or be sanctioned themselves. No way they would do it
You know our president is Trump and he's putting documented war criminals in charge of implementing his "anything is on the table" strategy in forcing the world to recognize Guaido (Trump doesn't care if he keeps his promise for elections or if they are legit) as the leader of Venezuela and you think Trump is worried about looking bad if Guaido doesn't have elections or they are a sham?
K
But lets get back on topic about what is going on in Venezuela not the US, if you want to talk strickly the US political implications there is a Blog and Thread about that.
I'm saying you are oblivious to how you (not "you" but this line of argument or worse) are helping Trump (I should clarify it's not even Trump but the neocons running his FP here) set up Guaido as a puppet and/or patsy and have no plan for what to do if Guaido (or chaos) is worse than Maduro and becomes yet another US backed dictator (or US quagmire/slave market shit like Libya).
There is a newly Fascist US ally country next door, a shit ton of oil and another corrupt af US ally country with longstanding conflicts and a narco gang problem there too so I'm pretty sure clusterfuck is an understatement.
EDIT: I know I keep saying this but if you knew more about other regime changes you'd be like "wow, they aren't even trying to hide this one".
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