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Venezuela political situation/humanitarian Crisis - Page 5

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JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 04:05 GMT
#81
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GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 04:09:29
January 31 2019 04:07 GMT
#82
On January 31 2019 13:05 JimmiC wrote:
Earlier I suggested we feed the people and the refugees. Perhaps use the gold in the bank of england if needed. Just make sure to deliver it to the people so corruption doesnt steal and sell it elsewhere as well.

Considering how weak the sanctions were and hope little the people had to eat who knows how much this will even change things.


I don't think BoE needs to steal from the people of Venezuela in a time of desperation either. I think if the US can give aid to North Korea there should be no issue providing aid to Venezuela. But if we do feed the people why not just start the talks now, the food now, and stop the starving?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6326 Posts
January 31 2019 05:48 GMT
#83
You do realise Maduro has repeatedly refused international aid right? I doubt he's going to accept it now.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 06:17:49
January 31 2019 05:53 GMT
#84
On January 31 2019 14:48 RvB wrote:
You do realise Maduro has repeatedly refused international aid right? I doubt he's going to accept it now.


He's also accepted aid recently, so I suspect it's conditional.

So the question remains, how long do we wait to feed the Venezuelans? Indefinitely until certain conditions are met, some arbitrary/ambiguous amount of time, or now? I prefer talks and food start now. How long are you guys willing to keep the Venezuelans this is all for waiting on our demands of Maduro?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Taelshin
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada420 Posts
January 31 2019 14:29 GMT
#85
Whats the condition though? he'll accept food if its got a fake Venezuelan label on it? he'll accept aid minutes before the people break down his castle walls? The idea that its "conditional" when his own people are starving is completely insane and shows how much of a monster he really is.
"We didnt listen"
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 14:50 GMT
#86
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JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 16:04 GMT
#87
--- Nuked ---
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 18:06:34
January 31 2019 16:07 GMT
#88
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 18:15:04
January 31 2019 18:10 GMT
#89
On February 01 2019 01:07 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2019 01:04 JimmiC wrote:
The EU is now conditionally recognizing Guaido at least until new elections are held. they are asking all the individual nations of the EU to do this as well but it was a non binding vote.

EU lawmakers voted 429 in favour to 104 against, with 88 abstentions, at a special session in Brussels to recognize Venezuelan congress head Guaido as interim leader.

In a statement with the non-binding vote, the parliament urged the bloc's 28 governments to follow suit and consider Guaido "the only legitimate interim president" until there were "new free, transparent and credible presidential elections."


https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/eu-vote-venezuela-guaido-1.5000036



Also there was 1 million people at the anti government protests on the 23rd and apparently bigger numbers are expected for protests on Feb 2nd. Hoepfully this pressure along with the international community can force a change. Civil war or invasion, IMO, will do way more harm than good.

Maduro is also having his intelligence officers arrest foreign reporters attempting to report on the protests.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/venezuela-detains-foreign-journalists-crackdown-protests-190131073859425.html


Looks like we want to make another Libya. As long as those supporting the actions so far don't act surprised by it ending poorly and accept that it was always a likely outcome they share responsibility in I guess that's honest.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 18:29 GMT
#90
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GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 18:41:25
January 31 2019 18:39 GMT
#91
On February 01 2019 03:29 JimmiC wrote:
I think no one wants another Libya and there are some pretty clear and stark differences between the two situations. So count me the group that will act surprised if it ends up the same.


Which US supported regime change do you imagine/want Venezuela to emulate (to the degree possible given different circumstances)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 18:52 GMT
#92
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 18:58:47
January 31 2019 18:53 GMT
#93
On February 01 2019 03:52 JimmiC wrote:
Eastern Europe. Hungry, East Germany, Poland so on.



You mean WWII? Or the "Cold" War

Like this in Poland?

When the Polish government launched martial law in December 1981, however, Solidarity was not alerted. Potential explanations for this vary; some believe that the CIA was caught off guard, while others suggest that American policy-makers viewed an internal crackdown as preferable to an "inevitable Soviet intervention."[188] CIA support for Solidarity included money, equipment and training, which was coordinated by Special Operations.


But obviously for the neoliberal coup guy.

Something a bit more specific would be helpful.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 19:19:53
January 31 2019 19:15 GMT
#94
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 19:26:45
January 31 2019 19:20 GMT
#95
On February 01 2019 04:15 JimmiC wrote:
Your going down a rabbit hole that is far from the target. But I think that when the wall came down in Germany a lot of those countries and their citizens were a lot better off with their new elected governments and getting away from their dictatorships. As for getting into more detail, not only is not my interest but it is not the purpose of this blog. Feel free to bring that discussion back to yours if you would like.


The issue is you think it would be surprising for this US supported regime change to end like the rest of them, instead of the ones that came with the fall of the soviet union.

I think that's completely ridiculous based on the available evidence and history of US supported coups/regime changes. Particularly when a key event in those you've selected isn't going to happen this time.

By all measures it appears your surprise will be a result of ignorance and/or denial about the most likely outcomes.

The future of Venezuela is indisputably a part of this topic though.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 19:33 GMT
#96
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 19:43:39
January 31 2019 19:41 GMT
#97
On February 01 2019 04:33 JimmiC wrote:
Yes it is, about what is happening. What could happen if X Y Z happens while acting like X Y Z are happening but are really assumptions seems like a fools errand to me. So I will stick to what is happening and will remain hopeful because assuming the worst accomplishes nothing. But by all means you have your whole blog to talk about whatever it is that you want so do all your future theorizing and so on there.


Guaido says that his family has been threaten and that the police loyal to Maduro came for his wife in an attempt to intimidate him. Who knows? I think because of how public this is he is fairly safe, but it is also pretty classic strongman tactics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47066906


https://thehill.com/policy/international/427885-venezuelas-guaido-says-police-showed-up-at-house-looking-for-his-wife




Perhaps you're familiar with the phrase "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst".

If you want to ignore probability and hope against the odds that's fine, just being surprised is illogical. It's like being surprised you didn't hit your royal flush on the river when you started with AK suited and a 2 of clubs comes on the flop.

Also of course he's going to be threatened, and quite likely killed if he doesn't accept talks soon.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 20:05 GMT
#98
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24504 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-01-31 20:21:29
January 31 2019 20:18 GMT
#99
On February 01 2019 05:05 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 01 2019 04:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 01 2019 04:33 JimmiC wrote:
Yes it is, about what is happening. What could happen if X Y Z happens while acting like X Y Z are happening but are really assumptions seems like a fools errand to me. So I will stick to what is happening and will remain hopeful because assuming the worst accomplishes nothing. But by all means you have your whole blog to talk about whatever it is that you want so do all your future theorizing and so on there.


Guaido says that his family has been threaten and that the police loyal to Maduro came for his wife in an attempt to intimidate him. Who knows? I think because of how public this is he is fairly safe, but it is also pretty classic strongman tactics.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47066906


https://thehill.com/policy/international/427885-venezuelas-guaido-says-police-showed-up-at-house-looking-for-his-wife




Perhaps you're familiar with the phrase "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst".

If you want to ignore probability and hope against the odds that's fine, just being surprised is illogical. It's like being surprised you didn't hit your royal flush on the river when you started with AK suited and a 2 of clubs comes on the flop.

Also of course he's going to be threatened, and quite likely killed if he doesn't accept talks soon.


I'm not doing any of the planning, neither are you so that is not really relevant in this case.

I hope he is not actually killed that would almost certainly lead to lots more violence whether it is civil war or invasion or both.


Reading the odds of someone's hand doesn't (perhaps I use "you" to informally for this to be easy to follow) doesn't require one to be playing. Neither does gambling on the outcome really. I'm just saying 6 months from now if it's a clusterfuck you should have known that was the most likely outcome of the actions you support.

I know everyone considers them propaganda (it all is everywhere, it's just a matter of who it's for imo) but this is the best write up I've seen on the situation. Articulated by someone clearly not supportive of Maduro but also against the coup (a voice that's been absent from US media and most western media).

What Has Happened in Venezuela Is a Coup. Trump’s Denial Is Dangerous

Juan Guaidó has declared himself president. Now the US and rightwing regimes may seek an excuse to intervene in support.

At the dawn of the 21st century, Hugo Chavez invoked Bolívar’s promise and when the poor, black, Amerindian people of Venezuela returned him to power, time and again, especially after the failed US-backed coup of 2002, he too radicalised his stance against the mighty empire Bolivar had only speculated about, America. Again, the promise was realised only in part. Some might say the revolution has been betrayed or stalled during the rule of his successor Nicolás Maduro. No one can deny Venezuela’s problems. The very source of its magic in the 1970s, oil, has proven its downfall. Chavez did not win his country’s independence from oil and its geopolitics.

Crisis loomed when global prices fell, production stagnated, the value of the currency dropped, and under Maduro, dependence on imports and retail monopolies meant shortages that hurt many. That responsibility lies with the government and the industrialist rightwing opposition. But to think that this opposition, revived by Juan Guaidó’s self-proclamation spectacle, acts out of genuine concern for the poor, black people and Amerindians who empowered themselves during the years of the Bolivarian revolution would be foolish.

Enter Donald Trump: megalomaniac, erratic, liar. Calling out the interventionism of previous US administrations, which had been constant in their hatred for Chavez and their attempts to regain influence in the region, Trump promised to put an end to all such shenanigans. But on Wednesday, vice-president Mike Pence saluted Guaidó’s self-appointment, observing that although Trump disliked intervening elsewhere, he “has always had a very different view of our hemisphere”. That’s an explicit invocation of the Monroe doctrine under which the US has held it as its responsibility to intervene in the Americas, which it sees as its backyard.

Trump swiftly recognised Guaidó as the interim president of Venezuela, and was followed by a cohort of Latin American presidents, all-white, upper-class leaders now spearheading the new reactionary wave in the region: Brazil’s Jair Bolsonaro, Argentina’s Mauricio Macri, Colombia’s Iván Duque and Chile’s Sebastián Piñera. They’ll proclaim themselves saviours of democracy and humanitarianism, the liars. Draping themselves in the robes of the liberators of yesteryear, just as Guaidó draped himself in the image of Chavez and Bolívar while holding a constitution with the latter’s image on its cover, they’ll happily support further US sanctions, paramilitary forces training Venezuela’s opposition in the torture tactics that displaced 7 million people in Colombia, or using “lawfare” in pan-American institutions just as happened to Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Dilma Rousseff in Brazil, Manuel Zelaya in Honduras and Fernando Lugo in Paraguay.

Expect such measures to have limited purchase. Washington knows it. Then, Trump and the others will be ready to go for the more muscular approach. Not by accident, this could also benefit Trump as elections approach or if he is cornered by investigations and impeachment. War distracts and makes money. Only this won’t be a regional plunder: China and Russia, both with key interests in Venezuela and elsewhere in the region, have followed Bolivia, Mexico, Uruguay and Cuba to call Guaidó’s stunt by its real name: a coup. Russia has indicated it would come to the defence of its ally. In Venezuela, many who may be critical of Maduro but fear most the return of the rightwing opposition to power are unlikely to cheer the newly converted humanitarians.


venezuelanalysis.com
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
January 31 2019 20:38 GMT
#100
--- Nuked ---
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