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On February 01 2019 11:41 JimmiC wrote:
So it your position that the some of the people who just happen to be protesting at the exact time Guaido asks for there to be protests, risking their lives, are doing so because they oppose Maduro but they don't want Guaido to be interm until elections can be held.
No.
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On February 01 2019 11:45 JimmiC wrote:
So you think they do want Guaido to be the interm until elections can be held?
No.
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On February 01 2019 11:54 JimmiC wrote:
So what do you think they want? Please be clear and straight forward.
They want to remove Maduro through a (relatively) peaceful transition guided by multinational talks with countries like Mexico & Uruguay
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On February 01 2019 12:01 JimmiC wrote:
That is very specific. I would be completely fine with that if it what they want.
Why do you think they want that?
And do you think there is a chance Maduro would do this, and if ge doesnt what should the rest of the world do?
Because that's what they said they wanted. It also makes more sense than a US backed coup from my perspective
In general do you agree or disagree with a dialogue being held between the national government and the opposition to resolve the current economic problems in the country?
84% agree
15% disagree
1% not sure
The support for choosing the path of coup as opposed to the path suggested by the former Spanish PM/ UN political chief is far from ubiquitous as you presented.
EDIT: Which is the whole point. Someone reading this mess please explain that to him.
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On February 01 2019 12:07 JimmiC wrote:
ROLF! And to think I thought we were getting some where. Maybe even some honesty. Oh well g'night.
I don't know what happened to you? Was it "backed" because I could put support. I thought we were making progress too.
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On February 01 2019 12:27 JimmiC wrote:
That you think some poll that we have no knowledge of how many or who were polled. And the vague question that in general they agree with discussion means your specific beliefs are some how exactly right and not tge far more likely that they are protesting for governmental change and immidiate elections with Guiodo leading the process is amazing. That logical gymnastics is impressive.
It's not being hidden from you?
http://hinterlaces.com/
I'm pretty sure you've already at least acknowledged that you're aware of the strong anti-US sentiment in Venezuela (independent of Maduro) so this shouldn't be so hard for you to accept?
It's also upfront about potential bias
Hinterlaces is led by the independent pollster Oscar Schemel, who has experience studying numerous elections in Venezuela and has a pro-business perspective. Most polling firms in the country, such as the competitor Datanálisis, tend to be pro-opposition. Hinterlaces is more neutral, and often leans toward the government, although Schemel has criticized some of Maduro’s economic policies.
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On February 01 2019 12:51 JimmiC wrote:
Yes many articles have pointed out how surprising it is that Guaido is getting this level of support considering the US publicly supported him. It is amazing as US anywhere near anything was the kiss of death, but they are just so sick of the corruption and being hungry and sick they are willing to give him a chance.
Or like you suggest they are protesting with the complicated belief that their protests will lead to talks in Mexico about a leadership change. And they just happen to hold them when Guaido asks, not because they want what he offers (new elections with him as interm). But rather these talks. So far I have yet to see these signs or any information that this is what they want. But maybe they just think the world will figure it out as you have or Maduro will.
And I have answered your questions but you still have not answered mine. If Maduro doesn't leave as the people clearly want, your way or the other, what do you think the international community and also Venezuelans should do to encourage him to do so?
They don't just hold them when Guaido asks, they were happening before, during and after. Many opposition factions with different ideas of how to go about things. The point of them coming together at the same time isn't to endorse Guaido and his coup, but to demonstrate there is popular opposition to Maduro.
I understand you believe (even though Guaido himself doesn't even believe this) that they support his coup. I think the plain fact it didn't succeed tells me that less than 84% agree a US supported coup was the best option, as well as the available polling data.
When Guaido stops refusing to talk and implicitly threatening foreign invasion/civil war then perhaps they can discuss a resolution where Guaido "stepped down" along with Maduro and a coalition government formed through the talks with approval from Maduro and the opposition (not Guaido alone) ran a new election monitored by international parties and something (internally) comparable to when Chavez was first elected.
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On February 01 2019 13:13 JimmiC wrote:
The issue is that you think the people of venezuela consider guaido a us coup. And that you think that this some how means a military invasion.
But you are also dodging now my two questions.
Do you want foriegn military invasion of the US?
What to do if Maduro wont step aside, both the people and international community.
Regardless of how much influence they ascribe to the US in the coup many people oppose it for many of the same reasons I would oppose a bunch of generals (for Guaido these are also US/Colombian/Brazilian generals) led by Mitch McConnell removing Trump. But I would still go to the protests demonstrating opposition to Trump, even if McConnell called for protests at the same time.
If I oppose the US invading other countries what on earth makes you think I would support someone invading us?
What to do if Maduro wont step aside, both the people and international community.
I'm not exactly sure what that's asking but going off my best guess:
Keep people fed and keep talking knowing that even if you can't get new elections before they are scheduled, Maduro will have to make many concessions to keep protests under control that will make the next elections more legit.
Also bribe him to just fucking walk away is an option that will appeal more and more to him as time goes on.
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On February 01 2019 14:05 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2019 13:23 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 01 2019 13:13 JimmiC wrote:
The issue is that you think the people of venezuela consider guaido a us coup. And that you think that this some how means a military invasion.
But you are also dodging now my two questions.
Do you want foriegn military invasion of the US?
What to do if Maduro wont step aside, both the people and international community. Regardless of how much influence they ascribe to the US in the coup many people oppose it for many of the same reasons I would oppose a bunch of generals (for Guaido these are also US/Colombian/Brazilian generals) led by Mitch McConnell removing Trump. But I would still go to the protests demonstrating opposition to Trump, even if McConnell called for protests at the same time. If I oppose the US invading other countries what on earth makes you think I would support someone invading us? What to do if Maduro wont step aside, both the people and international community. I'm not exactly sure what that's asking but going off my best guess: Keep people fed and keep talking knowing that even if you can't get new elections before they are scheduled, Maduro will have to make many concessions to keep protests under control that will make the next elections more legit. Also bribe him to just fucking walk away is an option that will appeal more and more to him as time goes on. I didnt, just didnt want to assume. So you are about the angriest guy I have encountered with his own government and yet you would not support a foriegn coup. That means 5 million Venezuelans are angrier at their goverment than you, and that is not including the millions and millions that have also fled who are very likley angrier than you. That really puts that number in perspective.
That's not at all what that means. But I do think it is a good rough estimate of Guaido's actual support in his coup (I'd guess slightly higher for those hoping against the odds that it doesn't take more direct US intervention) attempt.
If you want to feed the people why not use their gold to do so?
My presumption of capitalists is that they would gouge as much as possible without someone like you accusing them of theft for one.
Also if he would take a bribe Id be all over that. You would hope not too large because he has stolen enough from his people but some times you have to let the bad guy get away with it for the greater good and hope karma catches up to him.
If he's not a true revolutionary (there's a strong case to this effect) this should be pretty easy sell provided there was no reason to assume the US/Russia would assassinate him out of spite. It seems like a far superior solution than the threats from Guaido even if still less good than the talks supported by Mexico and so on.
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K so that was a lot of blah so I'm just going to center in on this part:
Anyways enough trying to convince you of some pretty obvious stuff. And since you think I'm missing obvious stuff and you just keep looping back to "US lead coup" let us just leave it and get back to what the thread is about.
If you want to keep trying to convince me of the conspiracy and not post additional information, please do so on your blog not mine. Thanks!
Remember the video I posted you didn't like?
Remember the part when he says that they were in talks and the US and Guaido blew them up?
Remember how he mentions the Spanish PM criticizing Guaido for walking away from the process?
Now with Guaido refusing to return to any talks with Mexico or anyone else in mind, what does this sound like?
Mr. Maduro’s time is running out, but in order to manage his exit with the minimum of bloodshed, all of Venezuela must unite in pushing for a definitive end to his regime.
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EPT
