Venezuela political situation/humanitarian Crisis - Page 6
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 05:38 JimmiC wrote: Of course you think it is the best. It agrees with what you think. This doesn't make it the best. How many factual reports have you read that have sentences like this? "They’ll proclaim themselves saviours of democracy and humanitarianism, the liars. Draping themselves in the robes of the liberators of yesteryear" That Maduro government funs the website alone should make it questionable but even reading it it is pretty clear it is not the "best" reporting. It is certainly biased as hell. Also you version of "planning" is actually worrying which doesn't accomplish anything. If you would like to explain to me what actual planning you are doing that will do something to help the Venezuelan people I'd be interested other Plenty. They are just usually referencing Maduro or the government. I didn't call it reporting. I called it a summary of the situation from a perspective sorely lacking here and in the west at large. One I find to be the best. Of course since it doesn't align with the propaganda line from the west (or the propaganda from Maduro) you have to reject it outright. Rather than consider it a potentially valid opinion and dispute that. That you immediately shut down,label conspiracy, or dismiss as propaganda any opinion that is critical of the coup and Maduro is how manufacturing consent works. You're taking a politician you know nothing about at their word, most people don't do that for good reason. On February 01 2019 05:44 JimmiC wrote: I also think you need to stop saying that Mexico and Uruguay support the Maduro Government. Both have taken a policy of neutrality and wish for their to be dialogue. And Mexico recently said "for now". They never say anything along the lines of Maduro being the rightful leader. That list is Turkey, Syria, Russia, China. I don't remember saying that. Perhaps that they support Maduro and the UN's call for talks without Maduro stepping down (which is clearly the only responsible path forward at this point imo). | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
There is plenty to criticise Maduro for: late or misguided economic measures, corruption, power-hoarding. But these criticisms cannot disguise a coup or justify an intervention that, if and when it comes, would engulf us all. Trump counts on Colombia’s Iván Duque, Alvaro Uribe’s appointee, and Brazil’s neo-fascists to support this, contributing troops of their own if needed. A neo-fascist runs one of the Americas’ powerhouses in Brazil; a narcissistic liar afraid of being painted into a corner runs the other. That combination is toxic. War in the name of humanity may tempt them, as it did the more liberal leaders of the past. But this time the stakes are higher. Venezuela’s coup is a threat to the entire world. • Oscar Guardiola-Rivera teaches human rights and philosophy at Birkbeck College, University of London https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/28/venezuela-coup-trump-juan-guaido Also you version of "planning" is actually worrying which doesn't accomplish anything. If you would like to explain to me what actual planning you are doing that will do something to help the Venezuelan people I'd be interested other Stopping the US from doing what it always does in regime changes and getting the people fed and their right of self-determination, interrupting the manufacturing of consent, stuff like that. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 06:25 JimmiC wrote: It matters that you call it best because it agrees most with what you think, not because it contains the most information or some other metric. It is by a very specific metric, it's one of only 2 voices presented here that was critical of both the coup and Maduro. That every other source (besides the ones you consider Maduro propaganda or dismiss as opinion) is supportive of the coup despite the Venezuelan people overwhelming supporting talks, as well as the UN, and former PM of Spain (all previously sourced) makes them foundationally flawed. Even if they were 100% right about Maduro. It is also really funny that you think your perspective is sorely lacking here. It is my blog and I can barely keep up with you!. Literally everywhere you look you can find western media supportive of the coup, it's not easy to find informed opinions from people in Venezuela or that study the region that represent the ~84% of Venezuelans that want talks not a US supported coup (like 95% of western media) | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 06:56 JimmiC wrote: Not only was the source of that questionable. But If someone asked me Do you support a US supported Coup of your government? my answer would be no. If they asked do you support your current leader ? My answer would be no. Do you support new fair elections? Yes What I'm getting at is there is a thing called loaded questions sometimes it happens accidentally so when you are creating surveys you need to be very careful. But in this case it is clear there was a goal. Also generally when you do these things you also put out the information about how many people what type of people you talked to and the statistical relevance. I have posted many more balanced articles than that. You don't actually think it is, do you? Come on man. Perhaps if you had this is opinion that best matches my own it would make more sense and give the reader some context. It's not about some vague notion of balance. It's about a popular perspective that's almost completely absent, disproportionate to a much less popular perspective that is basically ubiquitous in the west, the US especially. Show me any source you came up with (without undermining it, hell I consider one you say you "put in context") demonstrating the clearly popular position that opposes Maduro, and also the coup, please so we can clear this up instead of just saying you did and me saying you didn't. Keep in mind you're looking for reporting on that perspective (factual statements about what people say they believe), or someone holding it (which like all political opinions, are opinions). | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 07:37 JimmiC wrote: Something like this seems more balanced. https://www.euronews.com/2019/01/27/is-it-legal-for-juan-guaido-to-be-proclaimed-venezuela-s-interim-president It remains a mystery to me why you act as though "the west" is hungry for a military coup. From everything I have read they are hungry for elections. Bolton and Trump might be different and likely are but they do not control the opinions of the "the west" It's not about some vague notion of balance. Are you really giving us that as your example of representative of the perspective from Venezuelans that don't support Maduro or the coup? | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 08:26 JimmiC wrote: I think the protests show that they don't support Maduro, especially when they are risking their lives to do so. I also think the 3 million that have left shows they don't support him. . I think that proves my point about not coming up with anything reflective of the voices Venezuelans protesting Maduro but also not supportive of a coup or Guaido. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 10:47 JimmiC wrote: The people protesting are protesting for Guaido uh, no. You know there are multiple parties in Venezuela with different perspectives right? That depending on how you measure he wasn't even the most popular figure in one of the less popular parties? It's like saying everyone that went out to protest Trump was in favor of Chuck Schumer(but worse because of the relative support numbers). This misunderstanding helps me understand where you're coming from though. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 11:02 JimmiC wrote: They are protesting for change and elections. Do you not think that the protests mean they want Maduro out and new elections? Because I do. That's true (as edited by me) . The issue is the part about how much of the very real opposition to Maduro, trusts Guaido. The issue being you genuinely believe that ALL of the Venezuelans opposing Maduro support Guaido when that simply isn't the case and should be plainly obvious in the anti-trump protest example. It should also trigger your bs meter in that even Guaido doesn't try to claim that. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 11:22 JimmiC wrote: I do not believe that I believe that they all support change, and are willing for that change to Guaido until the elections are held. At which time they will pick whoever. They do all support change (besides the pro Maduro protesters of course), the part you're missing is that they didn't/don't all support Guaido's coup as the path. That has to be clear to you now? | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States22699 Posts
On February 01 2019 11:27 JimmiC wrote: What do you think the protesters are protesting? It is Guaido who is calling for them. I'm asking because I honestly can't guess what you believe. They are opposing Maduro, like how people from Anarchists to Nazi's protest Trump. Your mistake is ascribing them a ubiquitous perception of Guaido. Anarchists/Communists/Code Pink/log cabin Republicans and Nazi's have all been to Trump protests, not all protesting him for the same reasons or desiring the same outcomes. That's how opposition protests work. We don't have to agree on anything except being against that guy. We can have diametrically opposed goals for what comes next and we might not be honest about them. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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