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Seems to be a story where they explain where the various information is coming from instead of just reporting things as if they are established facts. I've heard/seen various people repeat different parts of this without consideration for the veracity.
"He was crazed, that's the best word for him," said Debra Gureghian, the general manager of New River Pizza and Fresh Kitchen in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, where Sayoc worked for several months. "There was something really off with him."
Though officials declined to say what they believe motivated him, court records, his social media and those who know him make clear that Sayoc was troubled and, at least in recent years, deeply partisan. Ronald Lowy, an attorney representing members of Sayoc's family, said he believed Sayoc was mentally ill and lived out of his vehicle for over a decade.
Sayoc had worked in recent years as a pizza delivery driver. He claimed in a 2014 deposition that he had been a manager at a strip club called "Stir Crazy," owner of a dry-cleaning store, a pro wrestler, a Chippendales dancer, a professional soccer player in Milan, and an arena football player in Arizona.
That work history, though, seems to have been inflated. Chippendales denied he was ever affiliated with the company. Sayoc also told co-workers that he was an American Indian from the Seminole tribe, that he lived on the reservation, and that he had done work for the Hard Rock Casino. But the Seminole Tribe of Florida, Seminole Gaming and Hard Rock International said they could find no evidence to support that. His cousin said Sayoc's father is Filipino and his mother Italian.
Lawyer David McDonald, who questioned Sayoc for the deposition, said Sayoc was "glib and articulate," but also "maybe delusional."
"He described himself at the center of all these business ventures with all these people. It didn't seem like it could be true," McDonald said.
Sayoc was no stranger to law enforcement, racking up several arrests for larceny, fraud and drug possession.
In 2002, police in Miami charged Sayoc with calling Florida Power & Light and threatening to blow up the local electric utility. The report claims Sayoc said "it would be worse than Sept. 11." He ultimately pleaded guilty and was sentenced to probation.
Discussing an arrest for a bomb threat in a later deposition, Sayoc said that he was "joking around," but that a bomb squad had showed up at his dry-cleaning store.
But this is the part that sent me:
Gureghian, the general manager of New River Pizza and Fresh Kitchen, said that Sayoc worked as a delivery-truck driver for several months but quit in January. The white van he drove to deliver pizzas was covered in disturbing images, she said, so the restaurant required him to park it on the side where it could not be seen.
"It was puppets with their heads cut off, mannequins with their heads cut off, Ku Klux Klan, a black person being hung, anti-gay symbols, torchings, bombings, you name it, it was all over his truck," Gureghian said.
Sayoc was kept on because he did his work reliably and good drivers are hard to find, she said. But he disturbed his co-workers with racist comments and texts, she said.
www.houstonchronicle.com
Like really? I mean the twitter thing was pretty bad but how racist does someone have to be before they're too racist to deliver pizza (where they may encounter Black people)?
This country is something else sometimes.
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Something something free speech something something prejudice against Conservatives something.
It's another example of how the modern US has a problem with understanding that free speech is meant to come with responsibilities, and there really is nothing wrong with putting someone like this in their place.
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In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it.
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On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it.
It's sort of being talked about in the main thread. The discussion is over whether all of these things can be directly attributed to Trump, for what seem to you and me like obvious reasons, but if Trump's opponents get caught up in that argument I think that's dangerous. If people get stuck arguing over whether Trump gets all the blame, regardless of how valid the point may be, that gives Republicans all kinds of room to complain. If they stick to what we know, they can't say anything. If they stick to talking about the magnitude of the violence, about the frequency, about the common thread of white supremacism, and leave Trump's name out of it, it's a lot harder to rail against that without outing yourself as a white supremacist. And if Trump wants to take to defending it on his own, then he'll be doing the damage to himself.
If Democrats want to wake up and find some genuine momentum against Trump's right wing, this is a softball. They just need to not fuck it up.
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On October 28 2018 03:43 iamthedave wrote:
Something something free speech something something prejudice against Conservatives something.
It's another example of how the modern US has a problem with understanding that free speech is meant to come with responsibilities, and there really is nothing wrong with putting someone like this in their place.
You're thinking of nations with heavy restrictions on free speech that make them more into "policed speech" or "speech codes" countries. But I guess the real question is when you say "is meant to come," what authority are you quoting that's imparting the meaning? For example, did God tell you it's meant to come with your batch of restrictions? But this is mostly you joking in the "dumb conservative" meme "something something free speech", so don't think I was actually thinking you had an argument here, and feel the need to respond.
On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it.
You've had a little expansive definition of white supremacy in my opinion, but what about this synagogue shooting makes it anything beyond anti-semitism? I mean the guy hated Trump, and I'm not super immersed in why people think crazies that hate Trump are nonetheless motivated enough by Trump to make him responsible to address it more.
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On October 27 2018 11:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
I've caught up with a bit of the Republican spin on this and I just wanted to make it clear that I've said three times now, it was probably and by all reports a deranged guy doing deranged things. I just couldn't figure out what seemed so odd about the whole thing until I noticed the parallels between this story and the intercept story about previous attempts from the FBI to create terrorists for political purposes.
It's actually not something that just started happening during the Bush administration either. If people think the FBI goading this bomber is implausible they'd have a hell of a time digesting COINTELPRO.
This conspiracy theory you are promoting is nuts. The FBI performed an elaborate entrapment of this guy in order to endear themselves to Democrats whenever they come back in power again? Give me a break.
Has the FBI offered promises of weapons to wannabe terrorists in the past and then arrested them when they agreed to purchase these weapons? Yes. Have they provided terrorists with materials to build a dozen bombs, allowed them all to be built and sent, and only then arrested the guy to make themselves look good? No, and it is crazy for you to suggest that they did.
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On October 28 2018 06:20 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2018 03:43 iamthedave wrote:
Something something free speech something something prejudice against Conservatives something.
It's another example of how the modern US has a problem with understanding that free speech is meant to come with responsibilities, and there really is nothing wrong with putting someone like this in their place. You're thinking of nations with heavy restrictions on free speech that make them more into "policed speech" or "speech codes" countries. But I guess the real question is when you say "is meant to come," what authority are you quoting that's imparting the meaning? For example, did God tell you it's meant to come with your batch of restrictions? But this is mostly you joking in the "dumb conservative" meme "something something free speech", so don't think I was actually thinking you had an argument here, and feel the need to respond.
The argument is self-evident and doesn't need to be made, but you're deaf to it so I didn't see much of a point. GH already knows, so doesn't need to hear it. You are literally living in the western society that proves the necessity of restrictions to free speech.
On October 28 2018 12:24 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2018 11:55 GreenHorizons wrote:
I've caught up with a bit of the Republican spin on this and I just wanted to make it clear that I've said three times now, it was probably and by all reports a deranged guy doing deranged things. I just couldn't figure out what seemed so odd about the whole thing until I noticed the parallels between this story and the intercept story about previous attempts from the FBI to create terrorists for political purposes.
It's actually not something that just started happening during the Bush administration either. If people think the FBI goading this bomber is implausible they'd have a hell of a time digesting COINTELPRO. This conspiracy theory you are promoting is nuts. The FBI performed an elaborate entrapment of this guy in order to endear themselves to Democrats whenever they come back in power again? Give me a break. Has the FBI offered promises of weapons to wannabe terrorists in the past and then arrested them when they agreed to purchase these weapons? Yes. Have they provided terrorists with materials to build a dozen bombs, allowed them all to be built and sent, and only then arrested the guy to make themselves look good? No, and it is crazy for you to suggest that they did.
GH really, REEEEEEEEEALLY doesn't like the FBI. Remember, he says abolish the police but believes in rebuilding the institution as something better, he just wants the FBI gone and done away with.
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![[image loading]](https://i.redd.it/xif9z0ii0ru11.png)
That’s what The_Donald thinks about the shooter.
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Worth seeing but best ignored. The Donald, as far as I know, is the fringe loony right wing. At least for the purposes of this forum it's not especially relevant. I mean, it isn't like we didn't already know this would be their response. These are the fucknuts who genuinely think Sandy Hook was a false flag and harass the parents of the victims over it, while the man responsible for their pain and suffering continues to make large amounts of money by peddling his lies.
People like Alex Jones almost make me wish god was real, because then I'd be guaranteed that one day he's going to suffer for the misery he brought into the world and peddled for monetary gain.
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Norway28673 Posts
On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it.
Trump deserves a significant portion of the blame for all of this. No question about it.
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On October 28 2018 20:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it. Trump deserves a significant portion of the blame for all of this. No question about it.
The fact that you and others actually think this gives me great hope for Trump’s re-election. Nobody cares when it’s Republican leaders shot up by a Bernie supporter while playing baseball, or the deadly poison ricin sent to the president and senior officials in his departments. Democrats get a free pass on their rhetoric, because the Republicans are the bad guys under the big orange bad guy.
The only rhetoric that deserves tempering, behold, it is on the right! The lefts is backlash, or deserved, or only crazy people would really think they were calling for violence. It’s particularly funny how the last one hated Trump for his friendliness towards Jews, but it gets lumped in because brainless people just want an uptick in violence story, instead of an antisemitism story.
For its helpfulness in exposing political partisans, I say please continue.
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Norway28673 Posts
If you made a list over 'political participants guilty of invoking the potentially violent segments of their base', then I have no problems admitting that some democrats, both politicians and 'influencers', should be on that list. If you want to argue that 'Democrats' are as guilty as 'Republicans', there might be some validity to that. But no individual is more guilty of this than Trump, and it's the only actual landslide victory he has ever won. The idea that there's any type of equivocation between Trump and Bernie in this regard is quite frankly fucking ridiculous.
I never said 'the right' or 'the left'. I said 'Trump'. Previously, I've felt like the position of say, you, and introvert, has been one I can sympathize with - where you dislike Trump, yet feel compelled to support him because he's certainly more likely to succeed with implementing important parts of the conservative agenda than a democrat would have (supreme court picks themselves validate having voted for him). This to me is fully rational, even if I disagree with your societal goals. It's the type of position I can 'civilly' disagree with.
But the notion that Trump does not deserve blame for a die-hard Trump supporter sending bombs to what is essentially a list over Trump's list of Enemies of the State, that's ridiculous. It's completely predictable that something like this is a likely consequence of his prolonged agitation. He might have started out partially as a consequence rather than cause of the current political climate, but he is uniquely guilty of accelerating the negative development. If you can't see this, then that's on you, and it makes you considerably less reasonable in my eyes.
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Been reading some interesting articles about alleged voter suppression in Georgia. Brian Kemp apparently used a loophole to purge 500,000 or so people (350,000 or so actual residents) from the voting rolls while simultaneously applying overly strict standards to make actually voting very hard for a lot of people.
Be this true? Is Georgia uniquely bad? Or was there a specific reason for Kemp doing as he's done?
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On October 29 2018 00:00 iamthedave wrote:
Been reading some interesting articles about alleged voter suppression in Georgia. Brian Kemp apparently used a loophole to purge 500,000 or so people (350,000 or so actual residents) from the voting rolls while simultaneously applying overly strict standards to make actually voting very hard for a lot of people.
Be this true? Is Georgia uniquely bad? Or was there a specific reason for Kemp doing as he's done?
He's in the unique position where he is running for governor while he controls voting as the current secretary of state.
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On October 28 2018 22:56 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2018 20:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it. Trump deserves a significant portion of the blame for all of this. No question about it. The fact that you and others actually think this gives me great hope for Trump’s re-election. Nobody cares when it’s Republican leaders shot up by a Bernie supporter while playing baseball, or the deadly poison ricin sent to the president and senior officials in his departments. Democrats get a free pass on their rhetoric, because the Republicans are the bad guys under the big orange bad guy. The only rhetoric that deserves tempering, behold, it is on the right! The lefts is backlash, or deserved, or only crazy people would really think they were calling for violence. It’s particularly funny how the last one hated Trump for his friendliness towards Jews, but it gets lumped in because brainless people just want an uptick in violence story, instead of an antisemitism story. For its helpfulness in exposing political partisans, I say please continue.
Its not all about Trump, or even all about Republicans. Its about people with responsibility - journalists, politicians and other influential people - not acting in an appropriate manner and neglecting their duty to choose their words carefully. The whataboutism of 'Democrats do it too' is frankly unhelpful when we are in the middle of a right wing terrorism spree.
Here's an example:
This man is literally spouting the same conspiracy theories that the synagogue shooter was posting about on Facebook.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On October 28 2018 23:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If you made a list over 'political participants guilty of invoking the potentially violent segments of their base', then I have no problems admitting that some democrats, both politicians and 'influencers', should be on that list. If you want to argue that 'Democrats' are as guilty as 'Republicans', there might be some validity to that. But no individual is more guilty of this than Trump, and it's the only actual landslide victory he has ever won. The idea that there's any type of equivocation between Trump and Bernie in this regard is quite frankly fucking ridiculous.
I never said 'the right' or 'the left'. I said 'Trump'. Previously, I've felt like the position of say, you, and introvert, has been one I can sympathize with - where you dislike Trump, yet feel compelled to support him because he's certainly more likely to succeed with implementing important parts of the conservative agenda than a democrat would have (supreme court picks themselves validate having voted for him). This to me is fully rational, even if I disagree with your societal goals. It's the type of position I can 'civilly' disagree with.
But the notion that Trump does not deserve blame for a die-hard Trump supporter sending bombs to what is essentially a list over Trump's list of Enemies of the State, that's ridiculous. It's completely predictable that something like this is a likely consequence of his prolonged agitation. He might have started out partially as a consequence rather than cause of the current political climate, but he is uniquely guilty of accelerating the negative development. If you can't see this, then that's on you, and it makes you considerably less reasonable in my eyes.
I hope you're talking only about the mail bombings, because if you're also going to say Trump is responsible for the other two attacks because those are "enemies of the state" then I'm just going to have to say that there's not much discussion to be had here. In context of this latest post I will assume that it's only the mail bombings that you're specifically talking about.
If you leave it at this:
He might have started out partially as a consequence rather than cause of the current political climate, but he is uniquely guilty of accelerating the negative development.
then there's perhaps a good point to be made - he's clearly not someone who is careful with his words for someone whose words hold as much weight as they do. That can definitely inspire some crazies to act on their own volition in support of what they perceive to be a mandate to act.
But Danglars is nevertheless right to strongly object to your post because ones like this are pretty blatant political opportunism. The mailbomber could perhaps be pinned on Trump - the other two don't really fit that narrative but they're fairly easily lumped in, especially indirectly in a sort of "hint hint nudge nudge Trump kinda sorta responsible here" way. And it's never "X is inciting violence with aggressive rhetoric" when the political implications are less favorable. There's all "Trump inciting violence" when the terrorists are of the white supremacist variety, but if it's black or Muslim or something of the sort, the story is always a fair bit different.
And to be fair, you do at least acknowledge that factor in this post. But I would wonder, when such a "X influenced their violent base in a way that led to terrorism" scenario does inevitably come up in the future, if you will be as readily willing to admit that the X you are more sympathetic towards is culpable in that. In terms of the base at large, I can confidently assert that they will not.
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On October 28 2018 23:32 Liquid`Drone wrote:
If you made a list over 'political participants guilty of invoking the potentially violent segments of their base', then I have no problems admitting that some democrats, both politicians and 'influencers', should be on that list. If you want to argue that 'Democrats' are as guilty as 'Republicans', there might be some validity to that. But no individual is more guilty of this than Trump, and it's the only actual landslide victory he has ever won. The idea that there's any type of equivocation between Trump and Bernie in this regard is quite frankly fucking ridiculous.
I never said 'the right' or 'the left'. I said 'Trump'. Previously, I've felt like the position of say, you, and introvert, has been one I can sympathize with - where you dislike Trump, yet feel compelled to support him because he's certainly more likely to succeed with implementing important parts of the conservative agenda than a democrat would have (supreme court picks themselves validate having voted for him). This to me is fully rational, even if I disagree with your societal goals. It's the type of position I can 'civilly' disagree with.
But the notion that Trump does not deserve blame for a die-hard Trump supporter sending bombs to what is essentially a list over Trump's list of Enemies of the State, that's ridiculous. It's completely predictable that something like this is a likely consequence of his prolonged agitation. He might have started out partially as a consequence rather than cause of the current political climate, but he is uniquely guilty of accelerating the negative development. If you can't see this, then that's on you, and it makes you considerably less reasonable in my eyes.
Trump’s role is to condemn the violence and never once mention gunning down the other side or mailing bombs. He does not bear responsibility for what crazy people do with his objects of ire. The news outlets that lean left and employ the vast majority of journalists or reporters have acted as bitter enemies from day one. The permanent state has done the same with selective leaks, domestic surveillance, unmasking to leak, and probably more to come. The Democrats have openly called for giving Republicans no rest in restaurants, and called supporters rape apologists, racists, and islamophobes. Trump is absolutely correct in giving them public verbal lashings for all the insanity going on. It’s practically his job to give voice to a class of citizens that cannot speak out on immigration policy or foreign policy for fear of being labeled all these things and seeing the mob come for their jobs or advertisers.
Your calls that Trump deserves special blame for manifesting the pushback in a single figure rings hollow. He’s just got the loudest microphone right now, and his opponents are manifesting uniquely post-2016 fury and partisanship. If you’re going to go down the stupid trail of blaming words that don’t call for violence, then both sides share blame going back to at least the 1960s. If you’re going to pull back to a more sane position, don’t blame your leaders for the actions of their most looney followers. You’ll just go about chopping up blame and serving everyone their plate until you’re dead.
Now, had someone like Corbyn said “Jews are not people and deserve beatings for their actions against Palestinians,” I can see your point. Or, like if Maxine Waters says, “And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them“ and a bunch of Dems creates crowds and start harassing Republican political appointtees, I acknowledge you have a point in that instance. She literally called for it.
Any rube can identify Trump’s enemies... they mark themselves as enemies making up stories and saying he’s a threat to Democracy itself. Fuck, you don’t even need Trump saying one word; they’ll jump up on a podium and jeer. Choice of targets is one of the more stupid ways to point to Trump. If tomorrow some friend of yours tried to assassinate Trump, I wouldn’t bumble on about how Liquid’Drone selected him out particularly for encouraging violence, thus justifying putting an end to Trump’s encouragement of violence.
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On October 29 2018 00:26 Danglars wrote:
Now, had someone like Corbyn said “Jews are not people and deserve beatings for their actions against Palestinians,” I can see your point. Or, like if Maxine Waters says, “And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them“ and a bunch of Dems creates crowds and start harassing Republican political appointtees, I acknowledge you have a point in that instance. She literally called for it.
I like the way you keep going back to Maxine Waters, a woman who has only ever called for activism and protest in the face of what the Republicans are doing. No matter how much you want it to be true, she has never once called for violence.
On October 29 2018 00:26 Danglars wrote:
Any rube can identify Trump’s enemies... they mark themselves as enemies making up stories and saying he’s a threat to Democracy itself. Fuck, you don’t even need Trump saying one word; they’ll jump up on a podium and jeer. Choice of targets is one of the more stupid ways to point to Trump. If tomorrow some friend of yours tried to assassinate Trump, I wouldn’t bumble on about how Liquid’Drone selected him out particularly for encouraging violence, thus justifying putting an end to Trump’s encouragement of violence.
Uhm, of course you wouldn't, because calling someone out for the way they encourage violence is not the same as being the person encouraging violence. Was this supposed to make some sort of point? Trump has been using his loudest microphone to encourage violence against people they disagree with since he was campaigning. "I'll pay for your legal fees." There is no equivalency here.
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On October 28 2018 20:35 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2018 03:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
In a week we've had the white supremacist terrorist "MAGA Bomber", a white supremacist terrorist try to shoot up a predominately Black church (killed two at a nearby grocery store instead), and now a a white supremacist terrorist shooting up a synagogue.
That's 3 different white supremacist terrorist attacks in a week. Republicans would be losing their minds if they were Muslims
Regardless of how much responsibility folks want to place at Trump's feet, there's clearly an uptick in white supremacists committing violent terrorist attacks and a president that has done a trash job of addressing it. Trump deserves a significant portion of the blame for all of this. No question about it.
Normally I'm disinclined to bother with whataboutism, but blaming Trump is really stupid and disingenuous when a plethora of Democrat and liberal figures are actively stoking confrontation and violence, whether it be Maxine Waters encouraging people to run administration officials out of restaurants or Keith Ellison openly advocating for ANTIFA. And that's before we even start talking about the role that the media plays in stoking division in the country by peddling utter garbage such as the "Trump is a Russian operative" narrative. There has been no shortage of liberal or democrat activists who have acted on this stuff, ranging from an anti-Trump gunman trying to massacre Republican congressmen to ricing being mailed to Trump and officials in his administration. Where's the liberal and Democrat outrage over these terrorist acts? Where are the demands that Democrats cool off their language?
It's not there, because you're all hypocrites.
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I hadn't even seen the story about the ricin before. If true, it's unacceptable. Even so, that same article describes Obama receiving ricin on more than one occasion, so is this really a point that Democrats have somehow made things worse under Trump?
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EPT
