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Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
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On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes.
Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument.
This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care.
They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum.
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I've been reading some conflicting things regarding Venezuela, so let me know if I've got this right:
Maduro is a dictator claiming to be a socialist, and Venezuelans are suffering under his rule. Meanwhile, the opposition party that attempted (and failed? still ongoing?) a coup has been orchestrated or coordinated, at least in part, by outside forces (likely including the US (and allies?) ) seeking to replace Maduro with a leader more amenable to US interests.
Is that correct, or have I misunderstood something? Is the opposition party actually made up of (in any significant part) disaffected Venezuelans seeking new leadership for the benefit of the Venezuelan people?
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On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum.
I've been wondering about this.
From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him.
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On January 26 2019 22:25 Dromar wrote:
I've been reading some conflicting things regarding Venezuela, so let me know if I've got this right:
Maduro is a dictator claiming to be a socialist, and Venezuelans are suffering under his rule. Meanwhile, the opposition party that attempted (and failed? still ongoing?) a coup has been orchestrated or coordinated, at least in part, by outside forces (likely including the US (and allies?) ) seeking to replace Maduro with a leader more amenable to US interests.
Is that correct, or have I misunderstood something? Is the opposition party actually made up of (in any significant part) disaffected Venezuelans seeking new leadership for the benefit of the Venezuelan people?
If I want to restrict myself to plain language Maduro can't be considered a "Dictator" in any meaningful sense of the word. He's got plenty of problems and there's certainly some authoritarianism going on (I highly advise you read my recent posts on the matter closely) but "dictator" just isn't accurate.
I would consider "more amenable" a euphemism for puppet regime but the history of the US in Latin America doesn't reflect well.
The opposition to Maduro is a lot more popular than the person who appointed himself president. But to make a crude analogy it's like the Democratic party/opposition to Trump. It's a "broad tent" and instead of socialism being the unpopular thing it's the popular thing and neoliberalism is the unpopular thing. Add to the neoliberalism thing the aspect that it will undeniably (check Marco Rubio's timeline) be subservient to US interests if by no other way than how the neoliberal economic system works. As well as how Jock points out
On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him.
The people in Venezuela aren't stupid. They know Maduro is no Chavez, but he's still better than US imperialism. Not hard to understand when the US puts a known war criminal in charge of helping out the coup.
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On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him.
Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader).
The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished.
Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism.
There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it.
But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion.
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I also want to clarify that
Spain, France and Germany gave embattled Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro an ultimatum ahead of an UN Security Council meeting on Saturday, saying they would recognise opposition leader Juan Guaido as president unless he calls elections within eight days.
www.scmp.com
This is like Russia saying they are going to recognize Trump as the president after the election if he had lost unless there's a new election called 8 days later but this time it has to be 100 legit.
All of these countries have neoliberal capitalist interests and are turning a blind eye to the clear role the US is already playing and surely they don't think the CIA is trying to make sure they can snap together an election that somehow fixes the problems that were supposed to be so devastating the opposition couldn't even participate. Or that an election under such circumstances could possibly be free and fair.
Also
Spain, which has some 200,000 of its nationals living in Venezuela
"colonizers" was the word they were looking for.
There seems to be some confusion on whether the US cares that Venezuela has Authoritarian issues or that people are starving , according to the Democracy index Venezuela is 20+ places more democratic than US ally, weapons buyer, school bus bombers, and mass famine instigators in Saudi Arabia.
Also Brazil got a 6.97 out of 10 and elected an open fascist, and Israel has a 7.79 while ethnically cleansing Palestinians they don't let vote so maybe it's not a great scale.
en.wikipedia.org
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Venezuala is theoretically more Democratic than Saudi Arabia. The constitution and laws are pretty robust. But Maduro's made some serious changes that are weakening that, as we're seeing playing out right now.
Make no mistake, he could become a dictator. It's just up to him and the military if they want to go that far.
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On January 27 2019 02:09 iamthedave wrote:
Venezuala is theoretically more Democratic than Saudi Arabia. The constitution and laws are pretty robust. But Maduro's made some serious changes that are weakening that, as we're seeing playing out right now.
Make no mistake, he could become a dictator. It's just up to him and the military if they want to go that far.
The upshot is if there is an election (hard to imagine a legit one being put together so fast if Maduro's aren't) then people may just have to accept that given the choice some people will chose more authoritarian leaders. Remember Trump was elected. The question should always be why and what the authority wishes to accomplish.
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On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion.
It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity.
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On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity.
After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez?
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On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez?
Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expats roaming latin america are also US agents.
Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll.
It's not like the Venezuelan army has been bought and trained with foreign money and intel for years (decades at this point), only for leftist to whine about US interventionism when the people finally has some chance to fight back.
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On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll.
I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol.
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On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol.
So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country?
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On January 27 2019 02:54 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol. So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country?
I have no idea.
I'm sure its possible. I can well imagine a situation where 3 million people leave a country. Does that mean I want my government/army/intelligence services going in and 'fixing' it? Not a chance.
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On January 27 2019 02:56 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:54 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol. So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country? I have no idea. I'm sure its possible. I can well imagine a situation where 3 million people leave a country. Does that mean I want my government/army/intelligence services going in and 'fixing' it? Not a chance.
No one is arguing for that. That said, given Maduro's military has received at least a decade of support from Cuba (intel and training) and god knows how much money from China and Russia to payoff his cronies, other countries using soft power against him isn't at least making things fairer?
The situation in which 3 million people leave a country is called I CANNOT GET FOOD RELIABLY.
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On January 27 2019 02:59 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:54 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes.
Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument.
This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care.
They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol. So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country? I have no idea. I'm sure its possible. I can well imagine a situation where 3 million people leave a country. Does that mean I want my government/army/intelligence services going in and 'fixing' it? Not a chance. No one is arguing for that. That said, given Maduro's military has received at least a decade of support from Cuba (intel and training) and god knows how much money from China and Russia to payoff his cronies, other countries using soft power against him isn't at least making things fairer?
There has been alot of talk of 'intervention' and the EU and US are both already applying pressure. I don't think it will work, but I'm very much against it. Making things fairer isn't really what its about, its about getting allies in the Venezuelan government, which always ends up bad for the country.
Anyway I'm not trying to say anything about Maduro other than I don't trust anything anyone says about him, given that people were saying exactly the same things about Chavez and it all turned out to be lies.
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On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 26 2019 21:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 26 2019 21:28 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ive mentioned elsewhere that I don't trust a single word coming out of Venezuela (except that their economy has gone down the shitter).
I don't support Maduro, I don't think I could, but I'm also totally against foreign intervention - especially to 'help' against ideologically opposed enemies. That's not helping its just advancing an agenda through war.
I don't think the "Maduro is bad too" stuff really matters until it's so common for people to shut down the idea that the US is a remotely humane actor or that intervention is even considerable that we can actually have the nuanced discussion that takes. Otherwise all it's doing is undermining the second point and reinforcing Trump's argument. This is the problem in Venezuela for those who actually care. They too can't mount a viable opposition to Maduro without it falling prey to US imperialism. So that between the two they prefer Maduro. It's not some grand conspiracy by Maduro, it's the US refusing to let Venezuela determine it's own future. If it did they would just pick a better socialist to run it, at least a different one at minimum. I've been wondering about this. From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him. Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol.
Also Gotunk complained about a conspiracy by the US media against the Covington kids like 15 minutes ago
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On January 27 2019 03:02 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 02:59 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:54 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:On January 26 2019 22:31 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
I've been wondering about this.
From what I can gather, much of the support Maduro has is because he is Chavez's boy. Chavez told his people to support Maduro and to resist US imperialism. I think there would probably be limits on the population's support for Maduro but the one thing they don't want is the US turning up and exploiting their country again, so they will support him.
Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader). The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished. Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism. There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it. But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol. So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country? I have no idea. I'm sure its possible. I can well imagine a situation where 3 million people leave a country. Does that mean I want my government/army/intelligence services going in and 'fixing' it? Not a chance. No one is arguing for that. That said, given Maduro's military has received at least a decade of support from Cuba (intel and training) and god knows how much money from China and Russia to payoff his cronies, other countries using soft power against him isn't at least making things fairer? There has been alot of talk of 'intervention' and the EU and US are both already applying pressure. I don't think it will work, but I'm very much against it. Making things fairer isn't really what its about, its about getting allies in the Venezuelan government, which always ends up bad for the country. Anyway I'm not trying to say anything about Maduro other than I don't trust anything anyone says about him, given that people were saying exactly the same things about Chavez and it all turned out to be lies.
What lies are you talking about? The rampant inflation has been going on since Chavez, he was doing the kind of thing Maduro has been doing on a smaller scale. Hiperinflation has been going on for a decade by now, it's only it took some time to completely destroy a country. Saying "I don't trust anything anyone says" is just turning a blind eye on the long term process of destruction of a country. Arguing if people are starving by deliberate government action or omition is just semantics.
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On January 27 2019 03:08 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2019 03:02 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:59 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:56 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:54 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:49 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 27 2019 02:47 Jockmcplop wrote:On January 27 2019 02:45 GoTuNk! wrote:On January 26 2019 23:23 iamthedave wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, Maduro is a) Chavez's boy b) a former friend and c) genuinely admires and respects his old boss (by all accounts from those who've talked about him as an individual rather than as a leader).
The problem with this coup is it's largely led by the right wing, and the entire reason Chavez got into power in the first place was because the right wing Venezualan government was a corrupt-as-fuck kleptocracy that ran it into the ground and left the people impoverished.
Yes, it is going wrong - horribly wrong - as things are, but some Venezualans (I think a minority at this point), would rather they stick with the ghost of Chavez's legacy and have a better Socialist than back some right winger, with the spectre of the times before Chavez which sucked. And indeed, US Imperialism.
There's a slide happening in Venezuala. Maduro has done some very anti-Democratic things. The whole awkward coalition against him came about because of some changes to the voting system that all but required it.
But calling him a dictator at this juncture is alarmism in my opinion. It's pretty sad I wasn't allowed to post the multiple videos of military personnel shooting unarmed, hungry civilians. Might get trough some heads of leftists who have some moral compass and reasoning capacity. After the proven faked video that almost brought down Chavez? Yeah it's all US made montages, because empire. The 3 million expatas roaming latin america are also US agents. Those venezuelans I personally meet doing menial jobs, are on the FBI payroll. I like how you say this sarcastically as if it isn't viable or possible when it has actually happened before lol. So do the 3 million expats exist or am I imagining the venezuelans flooding my country? I have no idea. I'm sure its possible. I can well imagine a situation where 3 million people leave a country. Does that mean I want my government/army/intelligence services going in and 'fixing' it? Not a chance. No one is arguing for that. That said, given Maduro's military has received at least a decade of support from Cuba (intel and training) and god knows how much money from China and Russia to payoff his cronies, other countries using soft power against him isn't at least making things fairer? There has been alot of talk of 'intervention' and the EU and US are both already applying pressure. I don't think it will work, but I'm very much against it. Making things fairer isn't really what its about, its about getting allies in the Venezuelan government, which always ends up bad for the country. Anyway I'm not trying to say anything about Maduro other than I don't trust anything anyone says about him, given that people were saying exactly the same things about Chavez and it all turned out to be lies. What lies are you talking about? The rampant inflation has been going on since Chavez, he was doing the kind of thing Maduro has been doing on a smaller scale. Hiperinflation has been going on for a decade by now, it's only it took some time to completely destroy a country. Saying "I don't trust anything anyone says" is just turning a blind eye on the long term process of destruction of a country. Arguing if people are starving by deliberate government action or omition is just semantics.
The problem here is that you are focusing on something totally different to me.
Chavez was incredibly popular, which is why Maduro got elected in the first place. If you would listen to the voices coming from Venezuela during Chavez's time in charge, you wouldn't think that is the case. This is because the people with the means to get a message out (ie middle class and wealthy people in charge of the media) hated Chavez, just the same as they hate Maduro.
This is all pretty irrelevant to me though, because I can't do anything about Maduro, I have no idea what life is like in Venezuela either, I just don't want Western powers getting involved and spreading their shit all over the world. Appealing to me on emotional grounds about the suffering of the Venezuelan upper class probably won't work because I'm so far removed from it that I can't do anything about it.
It certainly seems like the economy is going down the shitter, so if there's an election and someone gets elected that can fix that, then great,I'm happy for the people of Venezuela.
You get the feeling that when the EU and US demand an election, what they are really demanding is regime change. Time will tell.
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EPT
