EPTUS Politics Mega-Blog - Page 102
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 12:49 IgnE wrote: I just don't know that you do yourself many favors by apparently taking the stance that China's slide into a total surveillance state of dystopian proportions is not really that different from the US. But yes, your point that slavery is probably worse than most Chinese citizens' lives is well taken. I certainly have issues with dystopian surveillance be it COINTELPRO, PRISM, or anything else. My issue was primarily with the rhetoric used sans any apparent reflection. China didn't outlaw winnie the pooh, chinese citizens can and do criticize the government, and the Uyghur situation has been mischaracterized here as well. China has plenty of problems but I'd suggest that the hyperbolic and inaccurate rhetoric that typically gets tossed around unchallenged by most westerners doesn't do those using it many favors. On December 12 2018 13:00 xDaunt wrote: This rather forced juxtaposition of GH's reminds me of a particularly inane English assignment I was given during my freshman year of high school. The teacher asked me to write a paper discussing and comparing the roles of women in Romeo and Juliet and Clan of the Cave Bear. Your refusal to engage with substance of the argument presented reminds me of most interactions with people that hold similar views as your own. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:00 GreenHorizons wrote: Your refusal to engage with substance of the argument presented reminds me of most interactions with people that hold similar views as your own. I've been to China multiple times. My wife is Chinese and has family high up in the communist party. I'm quite familiar with the country and its level of policing. As Igne pointed out, there's nothing inaccurate about stating that the average Chinese person lives far better than a slave. But it's not a profound point. And comparing Chinese totalitarianism to American slavery is simply neither here nor there for all of the reasons that have been pointed out. You're barking up the wrong the tree. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:09 xDaunt wrote: I've been to China multiple times. My wife is Chinese and has family high up in the communist party. I'm quite familiar with the country and its level of policing. As Igne pointed out, there's nothing inaccurate about stating that the average Chinese person lives far better than a slave. But it's not a profound point. And comparing Chinese totalitarianism to American slavery is simply neither here nor there for all of the reasons that have been pointed out. You're barking up the wrong the tree. I'm sure you understand why this seems to undermine the idea that you think they are actually totalitarian in any real sense of the word? Or demonstrates a complete disregard for your wife's family back in China? I presume it's the former. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
It’s like all the oppression of segregation with the internet based targeting for Facebooks ad sense and geo location. Repressing entire demographics is no longer necessary, they can now target people directly and deprive them of services instantly. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:14 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm sure you understand why this seems to undermine the idea that you think they are actually totalitarian in any real sense of the word? Or demonstrates a complete disregard for your wife's family back in China? I presume it's the former. You really have no idea what you're talking about. When I go to China and consume Chinese media, the narrative control that the government exercises upon everything over there is palpable. Imagine if Roger Ailes was given the reins to every media outlet in the US, and you would have some idea of what I'm describing. It gets even more interesting when you use the internet in China and start bumping up against the firewall. Toss in the new social credit system that they're developing, and what's going on in China is creepy as fuck. And that's before we get into the darker side of Chinese totalitarianism such as the abuse of human rights attorneys and the mass imprisonment of Uighurs (I saw a story within the past few weeks in which Western intelligence sources estimated that anywhere between 800,000 and 2 million Uighurs had been detained in the camps in Xinjiang). Chinese totalitarianism is a completely different animal than anything that has ever existed in the US. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:19 Plansix wrote: Totalitarianism might not be the best term to discribe China, since they do not enforce complete subservience. They are not repressive of the average citizen through the threat of violence. It is more a social authoritarianism. They are repressive, but not so repressive that other nations will stop trading with them. The light touch of a social credit score that has the power to deprive people of basic service like transportation and phone usage. I'd say we've demonstrated why it's not the best term. As to the social credit score thing you previously brought up with that NPR propaganda, I'd still contend their system is better than the one we have that gives us Trump and people like him. The tiniest violin plays for the example of the exploitative millionaire trader who was having problems booking tickets for the high speed train we don't even have because our billionaire class exploits both Chinese and US citizens so badly. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:24 xDaunt wrote: You really have no idea what you're talking about. When I go to China and consume Chinese media, the narrative control that the government exercises upon everything over there is palpable. Imagine if Roger Ailes was given the reins to every media outlet in the US, and you would have some idea of what I'm describing. It gets even more interesting when you use the internet in China and start bumping up against the firewall. Toss in the new social credit system that they're developing, and what's going on in China is creepy as fuck. And that's before we get into the darker side of Chinese totalitarianism such as the abuse of human rights attorneys and the mass imprisonment of Uighurs (I saw a story within the past few weeks in which Western intelligence sources estimated that anywhere between 800,000 and 2 million Uighurs had been detained in the camps in Xinjiang). Chinese totalitarianism is a completely different animal than anything that has ever existed in the US. I'll give you that China is a very different country with entirely different social pressures (though still plenty of overlap), the rest of all that I've already been through why I disagree. Think about for a moment the restrictions on broadcast waves like radio and TV and you start to realize a lot of the repression you identify is remarkably similar to what you would characterize as "conservative values". This should be more apparent to you than most if you've been exposed extensively to Chinese culture. On December 12 2018 13:28 Plansix wrote: I agree with XDaunt for once, you have no idea what you are talking about. You continue to be aggressive ignorant when confront with anything that upsets what you believe. I love how you both get caught pushing false propaganda and you still have the audacity to call me aggressively ignorant. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:49 xDaunt wrote: So does anyone else think it odd that Trump had this impromptu televised meeting with Pelosi and Schumer today where he made a point of threatening to shut down the government over wall funding (something he has toyed with previously)? It was a notably aggressive move to make at this particular point in time. Not really. He probably got some feedback that he was getting criticized for not being as aggressive about the wall as other less emphasized aspects of his campaign (I brought this up the other week and there's been an increased focus on immigration because it doesn't follow the most common political faction lines) and some performative threats will go a long way in assuaging those concerns and sewing discord among anti-immigrant segments of the left (which extend to the left of the Democrats as well). I suppose I think it's kinda odd in the idiot savant way in which Trump genuinely sounds like a child on TV but seems to navigate the nuances of political reality in this country like a fucking Sith Shark. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:49 xDaunt wrote: So does anyone else think it odd that Trump had this impromptu televised meeting with Pelosi and Schumer today where he made a point of threatening to shut down the government over wall funding (something he has toyed with previously)? It was a notably aggressive move to make at this particular point in time. I don't really know what to think about the timing. I just think it's a winning issue for him. Just watching the whole thing now. Just wow. Divided government could be lit. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:00 xDaunt wrote: This rather forced juxtaposition of GH's reminds me of a particularly inane English assignment I was given during my freshman year of high school. The teacher asked me to write a paper discussing and comparing the roles of women in Romeo and Juliet and Clan of the Cave Bear. they had you read clan of the cave bear as a freshman? | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:00 GreenHorizons wrote: I certainly have issues with dystopian surveillance be it COINTELPRO, PRISM, or anything else. My issue was primarily with the rhetoric used sans any apparent reflection. China didn't outlaw winnie the pooh, chinese citizens can and do criticize the government, and the Uyghur situation has been mischaracterized here as well. China has plenty of problems but I'd suggest that the hyperbolic and inaccurate rhetoric that typically gets tossed around unchallenged by most westerners doesn't do those using it many favors. Your refusal to engage with substance of the argument presented reminds me of most interactions with people that hold similar views as your own. Nazi Germany wasn’t very totalitarian then either I guess. That GDR though ... | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 12 2018 15:13 IgnE wrote: they had you read clan of the cave bear as a freshman? Northern California high schools, baby. The English books assigned to me were full of filth, depravity, and rape. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 15:18 IgnE wrote: Nazi Germany wasn’t very totalitarian then either I guess. That GDR though ... Suppose it depends on one's perspective again. For a German Jew during Nazi Germany it was pretty damn totalitarian imo. You could make it as a Jew in Nazi Germany, but it would certainly take conforming to the government (in so much as it was consistent). I think I know the argument you're making but you're going to have to make it to avoid me presuming too much. | ||
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:49 xDaunt wrote: So does anyone else think it odd that Trump had this impromptu televised meeting with Pelosi and Schumer today where he made a point of threatening to shut down the government over wall funding (something he has toyed with previously)? It was a notably aggressive move to make at this particular point in time. Seems to predispose the public to blame the GOP if it happens, too. Isn't the general history of government shutdowns that the public blames the party seen as causing it? I remember the Tea Party doing it over defunding Obamacare and even FOX News openly said they couldn't win. Is the wall that popular an issue outside the base that the Dems will take the blame for refusing to put money up for it, especially given the Republicans didn't previously? On December 12 2018 13:34 GreenHorizons wrote: I'll give you that China is a very different country with entirely different social pressures (though still plenty of overlap), the rest of all that I've already been through why I disagree. Think about for a moment the restrictions on broadcast waves like radio and TV and you start to realize a lot of the repression you identify is remarkably similar to what you would characterize as "conservative values". This should be more apparent to you than most if you've been exposed extensively to Chinese culture. I love how you both get caught pushing false propaganda and you still have the audacity to call me aggressively ignorant. I think it might be prudent to ask two questions: 1) What propoganda is it you think they're pushing precisely? 2) Why do you think its false? Seems the back and forth is very close to name-calling, so maybe this would add a bit of clarity to the proceedings. For my own bent penny, I think China's certainly quite close to going totalitarian again, or at least the machinery is in place to do it, but I don't think that's what Xi Jinping is angling for. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23515 Posts
On December 12 2018 18:33 iamthedave wrote: Seems to predispose the public to blame the GOP if it happens, too. Isn't the general history of government shutdowns that the public blames the party seen as causing it? I remember the Tea Party doing it over defunding Obamacare and even FOX News openly said they couldn't win. Is the wall that popular an issue outside the base that the Dems will take the blame for refusing to put money up for it, especially given the Republicans didn't previously? I think it might be prudent to ask two questions: 1) What propoganda is it you think they're pushing precisely? 2) Why do you think its false? Seems the back and forth is very close to name-calling, so maybe this would add a bit of clarity to the proceedings. For my own bent penny, I think China's certainly quite close to going totalitarian again, or at least the machinery is in place to do it, but I don't think that's what Xi Jinping is angling for. . China didn't outlaw winnie the pooh, chinese citizens can and do criticize the government, and the Uyghur situation has been mischaracterized here as well. There's also the social score and surveillance which certainly has it's problems but is usually sans any critical comparison to their US counterparts or taken out of the context of China's national development economically, socially, and geopolitically. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2018 13:49 xDaunt wrote: So does anyone else think it odd that Trump had this impromptu televised meeting with Pelosi and Schumer today where he made a point of threatening to shut down the government over wall funding (something he has toyed with previously)? It was a notably aggressive move to make at this particular point in time. From reports he wanted it to be a photo op and tried send the cameras/press away. But Pelosi and Chuck sort of knew they were going to get ambushed(the meeting was supposed to be closed door) and talked to the press. Trump loses control of the whole thing when Pelosi calls it a Trump shut down and dares him to pass the bill out of the house. Trump got played pretty hard | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On December 12 2018 21:11 Plansix wrote: From reports he wanted it to be a photo op and tried send the cameras/press away. But Pelosi and Chuck sort of knew they were going to get ambushed(the meeting was supposed to be closed door) and talked to the press. Trump loses control of the whole thing when Pelosi calls it a Trump shut down and dares him to pass the bill out of the house. Trump got played pretty hard Every time Trump does something stupid people say he got played hard, but I'll believe it when I see it. The people who think (realize?) Trump is a moron think he got played hard and it looked really bad for him to threaten to shut down the government like a baby over a stupid, expensive, and ineffective wall. On the other hand, the people who are at least somewhat supportive of Trump probably saw it as him fighting hard against the evil dems to protect the country and fulfill a campaign promise. After all that we've been through and all the shit that Trump has pulled, I'll believe that "stupid stunt #1480" made an actual difference in people's minds when I see it with my own two eyes. My honest opinion of this stunt is that Trump was in control the entire time. He chose for it to be a public shitshow, he obviously knew what Pelosi/Shumer were gonna say. Even though I think Trump is monumentally stupid, I do believe that he has an instinctual ability to make things appear as he wants them to (at least when he's in complete control). Even little things like the fact that he was facing the cameras but Pelosi/Shumer were facing away, all that shit is the type of stuff Trump excels at. He's been living and breathing publicity stunts his entire life. | ||
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