EPTUS Politics Mega-Blog - Page 101
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Falling
Canada11358 Posts
On December 12 2018 00:14 GreenHorizons wrote: I don't understand the charge that China is totalitarian. I'd say China is more liberal than the US was in it's comparable stage of industrial development. If you wouldn't call the US totalitarian at any point in history I don't think you can sincerely argue that China is totalitarian now. I would contest that considering that that freedom of religion, association and speech are still highly repressed in China. They still have the state sanctioned Three-Self Church in contrast to the unregistered house churches. Any sort of missionary activity is either not mentioned in electronic communication or else coded, and churches outside of China have to be careful what they put online for fear of outing the Christians they are supporting in mainland China. No, I think China is not at all free compared to the US in its comparable industrial stage (what is comparison for a point of reference, by the way? 1920's? 1950's? the 80s?). | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On December 12 2018 08:29 IgnE wrote: the point of comparison is slavery I think people are struggling because it is such a bad point of comparison. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 08:29 IgnE wrote: the point of comparison is slavery up through the civil rights movement. On December 12 2018 08:46 xDaunt wrote: I think people are struggling because it is such a bad point of comparison. How so? I think they are struggling for other reasons. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 09:22 xDaunt wrote: US slavery had more to do with property rights than the police state and authoritarian government. The impact of slavery was limited to a minority class of persons in the US -- the slaves. It is in no way comparable to the persistent, wholesale infringement of civil liberties that impacts everyone in China. If you're not in the minority that argument doesn't sound like trash (I guess?). If you are Black it's laughable. Who do you think enforced those property rights? Literally was foundational to the creation of police in this country. You also think they outlawed winnie the pooh, so I think western propaganda plays a heavy role in why you guys are struggling. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
But hey, by scale China has way more people today than during than all of US history. So in the fruitless argument of which nation is/was the worst, they have math on their side. So in a race to the bottom, they got us beat. Not really sure how any of that is relevant. It is so if like comparing the holocaust to the British slave trade. You can do it, but I’m not really sure why anyone would? But I will say this: the discussion we are current having does not put us at any risk for arrest or detention by the US government. The same would not be true if we were in China. And I don’t know a lot about China’s court system, which seems intentional. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 09:57 Plansix wrote: The problems created by slavery only created 200 years of political conflict and sparked one of the largest wars in the nation’s history. And we still are dealing with the aftermath because people love that confederate flag. But hey, by scale China has way more people today than during than all of US history. So in the fruitless argument of which nation is/was the worst, they have math on their side. So in a race to the bottom, they got us beat. Not really sure how any of that is relevant. It is so if like comparing the holocaust to the British slave trade. You can do it, but I’m not really sure why anyone would? But I will say this: the discussion we are current having does not put us at any risk for arrest or detention by the US government. The same would not be true if we were in China. And I don’t know a lot about China’s court system, which seems intentional. I don't really care "who is the worst" my only point is people have a distorted perspective that China is much worse than it is and that the US is/was much better than it is/was. It's how owning people is somehow less of a systemic violation of civil rights than whatever the worst western propaganda has convinced you guys of being the case in China. Like I said after the 60's in the US we're going to have more disagreements, but you recognize that the US did in fact extrajudicially assassinate, harass, threaten and imprison people for having conversations like this. Well not the people making the arguments you guys are, but you get the point. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
My point was compairing a nation’s actions today to the entire history of another nation is, in fact, a giant waste of time. No nation is lily white and pure. China has its far share of skeletons in its history, some equal to the sin of slavery. Weirdly enough, China’s history is so complex and long people get entire PHDs in just that subject because of this. That doesn’t diminish the flaws of the US in any way. But it doesn’t make China a fun place to live for a lot of people who don’t conform to what is considered Chinese. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 10:26 Plansix wrote: Propaganda is a hell of a drug. My point was compairing a nation’s actions today to the entire history of another nation is, in fact, a giant waste of time. No nation is lily white and pure. China has its far share of skeletons in its history, some equal to the sin of slavery. Weirdly enough, China’s history is so complex and long people get entire PHDs in just that subject because of this. That doesn’t diminish the flaws of the US in any way. But it doesn’t make China a fun place to live for a lot of people who don’t conform to what is considered Chinese. My point is China (and the US) isn't what you guys believe it is. Hell there are Chinese people that have criticized the Chinese government right here on this site. They told the westerners basically the same thing I'm telling you guys now. That you guys repeat western propaganda as fact and have a terribly distorted/un/misinformed view of both the US and China. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2018 10:36 GreenHorizons wrote: My point is China (and the US) isn't what you guys believe it is. Hell there are Chinese people that have criticized the Chinese government right here on this site. They told the westerners basically the same thing I'm telling you guys now. That you guys repeat western propaganda as fact and have a terribly distorted/un/misinformed view of both the US and China. Well at least you found a way to be smarter than all of us. Good for you. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 10:41 Plansix wrote: Well at least you found a way to be smarter than all of us. Good for you. lol really? You don't deal with being wrong very well when it's a disagreement with me. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2018 10:44 GreenHorizons wrote: lol really? You don't deal with being wrong very well when it's a disagreement with me. I college I took two courses in Chinese history as my history electives. A 300 and a 400 level course taught by a Chinese’s native who immigrated to America in his 30s. He was a cool guy and didn’t like to pronounce the word “sword” because he always pronounced the “w”. They were two of the hardest classes I ever took and really enjoyed them. But I realized that I would never have a mastery of the subject without getting a masters. And I wasn’t interested in being a white dude teaching Chinese history. That was like 15 years ago and I kinda remember the subject a bit. But mostly I learned how little I would ever know about that nation. So when you say shit like “you are parroting western propaganda” I sort of just want to tell you to shove it up your ass. Because some of us did and still do the required reading. It’s rough to live in China if someone doesn’t conform with what they consider Chinese. I would put it on the level of the USs treatment of blacks in the 1930-1960s, but back up my modern tech. And there is no real free press over there. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 10:58 Plansix wrote: I college I took two courses in Chinese history as my history electives. A 300 and a 400 level course taught by a Chinese’s native who immigrated to America in his 30s. He was a cool guy and didn’t like to pronounce the word “sword” because he always pronounced the “w”. They were two of the hardest classes I ever took and really enjoyed them. But I realized that I would never have a mastery of the subject without getting a masters. And I wasn’t interested in being a white dude teaching Chinese history. That was like 15 years ago and I kinda remember the subject a bit. But mostly I learned how little I would ever know about that nation. So when you say shit like “you are parroting western propaganda” I sort of just want to tell you to shove it up your ass. Because some of us did and still do the required reading. It’s rough to live in China if someone doesn’t conform with what they consider Chinese. I would put it on the level of the USs treatment of blacks in the 1930-1960s, but back up my modern tech. And there is no real free press over there. If you don't like being called out on parroting propaganda then don't do it. It's not like this is the first time. As to the rest I could quibble, but it's basically in agreement with my original point about calling China "totalitarian". | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2018 11:12 GreenHorizons wrote: If you don't like being called out on parroting propaganda then don't do it. It's not like this is the first time. As to the rest I could quibble, but it's basically in agreement with my original point about calling China "totalitarian". I don’t believe I called them totalitarian. Only that it sucks to be in China and be Christian or any other religion/ethnic group. The Chinese government is becoming more authoritarian, especially with their new president/leader has consolidated power and ended their version of leadership changing. It is a lighter touch that their governments of the past, but freedom of expression and association are growing more and more limited as their emerging middle class makes up more of the population. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 11:30 Plansix wrote: I don’t believe I called them totalitarian. Only that it sucks to be in China and be Christian or any other religion/ethnic group. The Chinese government is becoming more authoritarian, especially with their new president/leader has consolidated power and ended their version of leadership changing. It is a lighter touch that their governments of the past, but freedom of expression and association are growing more and more limited as their emerging middle class makes up more of the population. China being "totalitarian" was the genesis of the conversation you joined and the reason the comparison you considered pointless was invoked. There is a prejudicial cultural divide at play in the rest of your assessment and presumably hinges on other mistaken assumptions about the relationship between Chinese citizens, their government, and the influences of capitalism and democratic reforms on individual freedoms. Despite that, it's not bold or inaccurate enough for me to take much issue with it. Moreover, a tendency toward authoritarianism seems to be a global phenomena that hasn't left out the US. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23255 Posts
On December 12 2018 11:53 IgnE wrote: GH do you think some countries are more totalitarian than others? I mean obviously? I feel like you can appreciate how culture plays a role in perception though. Take for example Christianity (since it's been referenced already), whether it's a theology of liberation or condemnation and oppression is largely a matter of how it reflects one's established cultural values and to what degree it's practice matches it's theory. Without trying to establish a Platonic ideal of freedom (I doubt more than 2 of us could agree on any one), I think my confrontation of some of the propaganda and rhetoric reflexively spread about China and the US is warranted even if you're going to be right about wherever you're planning on taking this. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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