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On January 21 2018 05:37 Qikz wrote:
I'd just like to point out that my stance is that not everything has been terrible since remastered. I'm not defending what the bigwigs at Blizzard are doing and nor do I wish for any of this to be happening.
Bringing up my post where I ask people to stop destroying the forum with constant arguing when we were all experiencing what would very likely be the last OSL ever I wouldn't say is me defending Blizzard. I will defend the devs of the game though as they do want to see their remastered baby do well. At the end of the day it's not their decision on the legal side of what Blizzard do and they have no choice on where to send money. I just get sick of people calling the devs shit when Grand from the dev team has even been here to tell us exactly what's going on in terms of development and why things are hard to do.
I just think unless we know the full facts we shouldn't go blaming anyone for anything. Yes you can feel angry, but saying that everyone who works at Blizzard is scum or that Blizzard (including the devs) have ruined the game then I feel you're misguided. The game was destroyed by illegal betting and matchfixing. That's the reason why the OSL died in the first place. You can blame Blizzard and wanting KeSPA to pay for the rights to use their game to make money all you want, but matchfixing killed pro BW.
All I've really said in this thread is that I think that this entire OP is shady as hell, because we have no proof this person is from Fish and also Fish were known to be shady as hell.
Wasn’t there also a match fixing scandal in SC2? The community is growing atm like it had not done in a long time.
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On January 21 2018 05:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 03:30 Cheesefome wrote:
I'm not trying to flame you but think you haven't been playing the game or roaming the forums as much as i have. The complaints about the same thing since before "beta" remastered had been released have not even been fixed.
. Cheeseofme I respect your opinion, but what the hell is that bit in your post. I've been a member of this forum now for years, I've had over 10,000 posts and I read the forum multiple times daily even from work. I host and cast tournaments every other week and I've casted some of the recent TL Open tournaments with Sayle. I've also been playing the game since 2008 and over the past year or so I've been playing BW for at least 3 hours a day. I'm not sure what exactly else you need me to do for me to form an opinion.
Well you sure not acting like it. There has been more than enough information passed around to assume blizzard is up to no good. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt to a company like blizzard is hard to do when they are constantly lying about content and information.
No one is blaming the devs. To the contrary people are making it perfectly clear that that devs are not at fault and in many posts showing gratitude. You have all these posts but its like you don't read before you post. People are raging at the company not at the devs and in many post people are making it perfectly clear that the anger is not directed at them.
We gave blizzard the benefit of the doubt when the train reck of a newly remastered was released. We kept saying "it'll get fixed dont worry guys", "they are busy with the game it'll get patched soon" ect ect... we still waiting... and valkaries still bug out when they made a huge announcement about that being fixed a LONG time ago.
Most comments were positive and looking on the bright side of all the mess but it's gone too long. They have pushed the limits and on top of that making it difficult for tournaments to flourish. They gave us a horrible version of new starcraft, fine, but now they making it seem like 90k is what the game's rights are worth. I'm surprised that anyone is even willing to pay them 90k for the right to host starcraft. At starcrafts current state, even if i were filthy rich my demands would be to give me a fully compatible starcraft game and i'll pay the 90k but as of now we have this half ass'd version starcraft that EVEN if i were filthy rich wouldn't pay 30k for the rights.
Honestly I don't even believe this is about whats good for the community or money. I have a feeling there is bad blood between blizz and afreeca. That is my theory. I cannot imagine why blizzard would make it this impossible for 3rd party's to host their game. They only benefit and blizzard atm is in such a good position financially that they could care less. It's at the cost of the fans unfortunately. Again that is only a theory so nobody take that to heart or quote it.
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On January 21 2018 06:09 WGT-Baal wrote:
the game is in a much better state now that during the beta, so they are actually fixing things. I will agree with you that when it was released it wasnt great at all, and I also felt betrayed.
2v2 ladder would be good as well to have more people playing, and lag is still an issue but overall ladder is decent.
I had a lot of lag on iccup as well (not on Fish though, that worked great!).
I also dont have a lot of trust in the op, there has to be some truth in it but to what extent I do not know. Fish doesnt exactly have a nice reputation.
I feel bad for Afreeca and I really want them to host a tournament but to me this is quite different from Fish, who was a 3rd party server, however you want to consider things it was obvious it would not last long with SC:R. Just quitting en masse or bitching about blizzard every single time is not gonna help what s left of the community. They need to realise people are still interested in the game and get their shit together but making useful suggestions is better than just losing it after a rumour or another. I think that s what Qikz meant.
Well said.
The thing is people have been giving constructive criticism in the forums. Blizzard does "attempt" to fix these things. the problem here is that when they release patch notes half the stuff they say they fixed in patch notes aren't actually fixed. This has happened patch after patch after patch. They should begin by releasing reliable patch notes and maybe a lot of people won't be so hasty about throwing them under the bus when bad news pops up. Atm, blizzard is coming off as unreliable from day 1 of remastered release.
Really hope they find the intention in all this negativity somehow.
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On January 21 2018 07:45 Cheesefome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 06:09 WGT-Baal wrote:
the game is in a much better state now that during the beta, so they are actually fixing things. I will agree with you that when it was released it wasnt great at all, and I also felt betrayed.
2v2 ladder would be good as well to have more people playing, and lag is still an issue but overall ladder is decent.
I had a lot of lag on iccup as well (not on Fish though, that worked great!).
I also dont have a lot of trust in the op, there has to be some truth in it but to what extent I do not know. Fish doesnt exactly have a nice reputation.
I feel bad for Afreeca and I really want them to host a tournament but to me this is quite different from Fish, who was a 3rd party server, however you want to consider things it was obvious it would not last long with SC:R. Just quitting en masse or bitching about blizzard every single time is not gonna help what s left of the community. They need to realise people are still interested in the game and get their shit together but making useful suggestions is better than just losing it after a rumour or another. I think that s what Qikz meant. Well said. The thing is people have been giving constructive criticism in the forums. Blizzard does "attempt" to fix these things. the problem here is that when they release patch notes half the stuff they say they fixed in patch notes aren't actually fixed. This has happened patch after patch after patch. They should begin by releasing reliable patch notes and maybe a lot of people won't be so hasty about throwing them under the bus when bad news pops up. Atm, blizzard is coming off as unreliable from day 1 of remastered release. Really hope they find the intention in all this negativity somehow.
I completely agree with you. The patch notes are misleading at best. And at this point I dont consider Blizzard to be reliable but at the same time it s not like we have a choice, since they own the game.
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fish_radio, you talk on behalf of a team of developers, right? You can take the matter in your hands and help finish OpenBW.
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You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh...
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On January 21 2018 11:06 GGzerG wrote:
You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh...
iccup is still up.
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On January 22 2018 00:15 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 11:06 GGzerG wrote:
You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh... iccup is still up.
And 1.16.1 (SD graphics) is officially free.
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Literally further proving my point that 1 good quote for SCBW >> Everything shitty they've ever done.
This isn't some sort of holy war but damn people sure seem to think it is
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On January 21 2018 07:03 allhenryros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 05:37 Qikz wrote:
I'd just like to point out that my stance is that not everything has been terrible since remastered. I'm not defending what the bigwigs at Blizzard are doing and nor do I wish for any of this to be happening.
Bringing up my post where I ask people to stop destroying the forum with constant arguing when we were all experiencing what would very likely be the last OSL ever I wouldn't say is me defending Blizzard. I will defend the devs of the game though as they do want to see their remastered baby do well. At the end of the day it's not their decision on the legal side of what Blizzard do and they have no choice on where to send money. I just get sick of people calling the devs shit when Grand from the dev team has even been here to tell us exactly what's going on in terms of development and why things are hard to do.
I just think unless we know the full facts we shouldn't go blaming anyone for anything. Yes you can feel angry, but saying that everyone who works at Blizzard is scum or that Blizzard (including the devs) have ruined the game then I feel you're misguided. The game was destroyed by illegal betting and matchfixing. That's the reason why the OSL died in the first place. You can blame Blizzard and wanting KeSPA to pay for the rights to use their game to make money all you want, but matchfixing killed pro BW.
All I've really said in this thread is that I think that this entire OP is shady as hell, because we have no proof this person is from Fish and also Fish were known to be shady as hell. Wasn’t there also a match fixing scandal in SC2? The community is growing atm like it had not done in a long time.
Yes there was a match fixing scandal, yes multiple teams disbanded as an aftereffect, yes multiple sponsors dropped as an aftereffect, just like BW did.
BW couldn't keep on going after that and closed 2 years later hoping for a better future in SC2. There is no SC3 to hedge bets on now. Its continue SC2 or end SC here.
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For the past year or more I've been in a state of internal debate about wether or not I want to come back to BW and invest my time in it again. It is, in my opinion, the greatest game ever created and I've enjoyed countless hours of fun playing it.
I recently watched ASL 4 and was very excited to see SC:R released and that tournaments seemed to be doing well. After finishing ASL 4 I was sure I should start playing BW again so I started looking on the forums.
All I've seen is negative feedback towards Blizzard from the users. Now it seems BW is in a similar state to that of SC2 where the user base is constantly unhappy with what Blizzard is doing.
I really hope there always remains a server where everyone in the world can enjoy the game remastered or not. I'm more than happy to play on 1.16.1 for the next twenty years because in my eyes BW was perfect.
In my opinion Fish has always been the #1 place to get the best practice one could hope for and Iccup was home to my community where I could play 2v2, bgh, and communicate with most of the users. If I'm understanding this correctly it sounds like Blizzard is taking these servers away, or creating a situation where these servers are unplayable. To me, that's disgusting.
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All I've seen is negative feedback towards Blizzard from the users. Now it seems BW is in a similar state to that of SC2 where the user base is constantly unhappy with what Blizzard is doing. A lot of it frankly, is just whinyness from a few outspoken people. I mean, not in terms of ASL, but sc:R in general. 2000 mmr or so is sort of rough as a lot of koreans lag for a lot of europeans/some NA, but thats the not the majority experience of players, and I dont lag vs anyone. The match making completely destroys anything iccup could ever offer.
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What the fk is this guy talking about when top Afreeca BJs can seem to churn out great games on a daily basis. Doesn't sound like some "server issues and lack of features" are keeping them from playing great games. I'm enjoying the tons of content from Flash Larva Last Shuttle JD etc etc...
Just sounds like salty tears from a couple of folks who somehow thought their business model would last forever (a model that leeches on someone else's intellectual property, apparently). World works differently.
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"Blizzard Korea is also infamous for censoring and calling out users on the Korean Blizzard forums, sometimes with stickied posts giving personal information of users they don't like." This part can't be true can it? Seems like an easy lawsuit if Blizzard is doxing it's own users on its public forums. I just can't see them ever getting away with that or it not having been in the news.
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Another week, another new opportunity to say fuck you Blizzard. Fuck you Blizzard!
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Some interesting choice of words. I'm curious about a few things:
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote:
We accepted no donations and did our best to provide the ultimate StarCraft experience.
Why not accept donations if the ad revenue was blocked? What is the reason behind this and is it legal or...? It seems weird if one source of income was blocked not to explain why other avenues aren't used.
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote:
It is now 2018 and the StarCraft player base is shrinking. StarCraft's big draw before the remaster was how the community powered the game.
1. Do we have numbers that the player base is shrinking? A before & after or something? This is a statement about a number, but no numbers were given here.
2. If the big draw is the community, then I think I would've expected many people to go back to the old ICCUP servers. However, I hear there is no one on them. Matchmaking is important, but wouldn't the quality of the game be more important?
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote:
There's much more I can add to this list. StarCraft Remastered is starting to feel like a cash grab.
Earlier you mentioned $15 is too cheap to complain about, but then claim here it's a cash grab. Is the $15 profitable given the immense rework they did? Do we know this? Sources of information here?
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote:
Blizzard Korea is also infamous for censoring and calling out users on the Korean Blizzard forums, sometimes with stickied posts giving personal information of users they don't like.
I think if this is the case, showing screenshots of this type of behavior would definitely get Blizz Corporate involved.
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote:
Me, SEBUNS, and other developers hope to receive some sort of acknowledgement from Blizzard. TeamLiquid is the last place we can ask for help.
I think this is a poor place to ask for help, tbh. I know a lot of the Blizzard Engineers have routinely answered in professional interviews that they scour the BNet forums. However, you also mentioned the Korea forums are not working for you. Can you link some of the posts? I'm curious if they completely ignore or what the issue is.
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On January 22 2018 17:37 SchAmToo wrote:
1. Do we have numbers that the player base is shrinking? A before & after or something? This is a statement about a number, but no numbers were given here.
PC cafe numbers from the 2nd week of January 2018 (most recent data available): 2.46%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=33277
PC cafe numbers from 2nd week of October 2017 (around two months after the full release of SC Remastered: 3.03%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=32398
PC cafe numbers from 2nd week of August 2017 (just before the full release of SC Remastered): 3.86%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=31827
PC cafe numbers from the 2nd week of March 2017 (just before the announcement of SC Remastered): 3.73%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=30240
PC cafe numbers from October 2015 (before any single member of Flash, Jaedong, or Stork retired from professional Starcraft 2): 3.38%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=25828
PC cafe numbers from August 2015 (before Bisu made his AfreecaTV debut): 3.46%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=25230
PC cafe numbers for Brood War fluctuated around 3% for the better part of a decade.
That number started to elevate in early 2017 to nearly 4%, as all the darlings of Brood War such as Flash, Jaedong, and Stork made their comebacks for their Brood War fans.
Even before the announcement for SC Remastered, you can see how the numbers are closer to 4% than 3%.
The hype for SC Remastered temporarily boosted the numbers even further, but after less than two months of its full release, play time for Brood War started to plummet, continued to decrease with no signs of slowing down.
Now less people are playing Brood War in PC Cafes than ever before. For over two decades, this is the first time in history that I've seen Brood War having PC cafes numbers below 2.5%, and that number has been floating around since late last year.
Playing time for Brood War in PC cafes reached its highest peak in years in 2017 due to numerous factors, and less than six months after the official release of SC Remastered in 15th August 2017, playing time for Brood War in PC cafes is lower than it has ever been in the past two decades.
That's what I was able to gather, anyhow.
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Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home?
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On January 22 2018 18:42 kogeT wrote:
Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home?
Not sure, but it is one metric from which we can judge the popularity of Brood War with fairly decent accuracy over a long time-frame. Actual play time from various severs are harder to gauge since I personally found it extremely difficult to find any numbers for actual play time from those servers across multiple years.
I don't know what else would explain Brood War suffering such a sudden drop in terms of play time within PC cafes that remained extremely stable for over a decade regardless of what else went on, other than the issues created due to SC Remastered. It's not like other older titles like Kart Rider suffered such a staggering drop due to people wanting to play older gaming titles from home. In fact, compared to October 2013, there's more people playing Kart Rider in 2018.
PUBG may be popular, but Brood War didn't drop this low when League of Legends alone had over 40% of the market share, or when League of Legends and Overwatch combined had very similar market share to what PUBG and League of Legends has as of today, or when all of the top three titles (League of Legends, Overwatch, and FIFA Online) had over 10% of the market share. No matter who was at the top, Brood War always floated around 3% for years on end. Until now.
I really don't know why some people think SC Remastered helped the Korean Brood War scene. Korean Brood War was actually at its healthiest in terms of overall player base, streaming numbers, and competitive scene before Blizzard's intervention from almost every available source of information out there.
I don't care about what Blizzard intentions are. However it outright drives me crazy when people drive the narrative that Blizzard's actions should be free from criticism until every we exhaust every single possible alternative explanation imaginable. It truly does not matter whether Blizzard intends to hurt Brood War or not, the fact of the matter is that they are hurting Brood War, and have done a solid job of fucking things up for Brood War in the past also. Blizzard are accountable for their actions, and people who shy away from the reality of the situation by worrying more about Blizzard's image, and at the same time pretend to truly care for Brood War, are quite simply, frauds.
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On January 22 2018 19:15 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 18:42 kogeT wrote:
Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home? Not sure, but it is one metric from which we can judge the popularity of Brood War with fairly decent accuracy over a long time-frame. Actual play time from various severs are harder to gauge since I personally found it extremely difficult to find any numbers for actual play time from those servers across multiple years. I don't know what else would explain Brood War suffering such a sudden drop in terms of play time within PC cafes that remained extremely stable for over a decade regardless of what else went on, other than the issues created due to SC Remastered. It's not like other older titles like Kart Rider suffered such a staggering drop due to people wanting to play older gaming titles from home. In fact, compared to October 2013, there's more people playing Kart Rider in 2018. PUBG may be popular, but Brood War didn't drop this low when League of Legends alone had over 40% of the market share, or when League of Legends and Overwatch combined had very similar market share to what PUBG and League of Legends has as of today, or when all of the top three titles (League of Legends, Overwatch, and FIFA Online) had over 10% of the market share. No matter who was at the top, Brood War always floated around 3% for years on end. Until now. I really don't know why some people think SC Remastered helped the Korean Brood War scene. Korean Brood War was actually at its healthiest in terms of overall player base, streaming numbers, and competitive scene before Blizzard's intervention from almost every available source of information out there. I don't care about what Blizzard intentions are. However it outright drives me crazy when people drive the narrative that Blizzard's actions should be free from criticism until every we exhaust every single possible alternative explanation imaginable. It truly does not matter whether Blizzard intends to hurt Brood War or not, the fact of the matter is that they are hurting Brood War, and have done a solid job of fucking things up for Brood War in the past also. Blizzard are accountable for their actions, and people who shy away from the reality of the situation by worrying more about Blizzard's image, and at the same time pretend to truly care for Brood War, are quite simply, frauds.
Letmelose laying it down as it is, as always. Damn!
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EPT
