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On September 14 2015 20:33 ElitePlaying wrote:
Awfully biased poll, just 'I love SC1 it's the best game ever, I want everything to be like SC1' syndrom.. that's what it is. And no one complained for the boosters that they existed since WoL... - this is part of what made SC2 what it is, scan or MULE for example..
Zerg's inject could have been made easier but not autocast where it makes things better for Z than any other race, but for T and P esp T yes we terrans where a look at the base can cause a baneling spash - it didnt take pro skill to casually click 'Drop a MULE' (calldown MULE)
What? People used to whine about mules since they got introduced. Basically, everyone complained about the boosters depending on what race was most dominant at the time.
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On September 15 2015 17:34 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2015 20:33 ElitePlaying wrote:
Awfully biased poll, just 'I love SC1 it's the best game ever, I want everything to be like SC1' syndrom.. that's what it is. And no one complained for the boosters that they existed since WoL... - this is part of what made SC2 what it is, scan or MULE for example..
Zerg's inject could have been made easier but not autocast where it makes things better for Z than any other race, but for T and P esp T yes we terrans where a look at the base can cause a baneling spash - it didnt take pro skill to casually click 'Drop a MULE' (calldown MULE) What? People used to whine about mules since they got introduced. Basically, everyone complained about the boosters depending on what race was most dominant at the time.
I never played BW. But playing sc2 without the macro boosters felt so much better.
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On September 13 2015 23:52 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2015 23:40 Little-Chimp wrote:
Not only is no macro boosters more fun, but also helps balance the metagame away from mass cheap unit type stuff and slows the game down slightly to a favorable pace where worker deaths matter more.
Bye bye giant zergling balls winning or losing 90% of zvz, or Terran being played like zerg. And yes, Terran had an extremely difficult time at first with no mules, but this can be fixed with some balance changes. In fact, balance of the game in general would be easier with removal of such massively variable mechanics.
At this point the only "issue" is that zerg would be a little easier than the other two, which is either a non issue or an easily solvable one by just giving zerg something else to do that isnt inject.
Guessing you've never played at beyond gold league if you think "zergling balls" = 90% of ZvZ
Ling allin and LingBaneAllin was still 90% of ZvZ in Diamond. Roach wars were really uncommon since it depends of IF you can wall your ramp....
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I noticed since first day that zerg has a too big focus on economy-simulation strategy. Never liked it.
All MM have to go. We need more focus on army than economy.
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I like these macro mechanics the way they used to be. When I watch my low lvl friends play (diamond/master leaguers) their problem usually is lack of game understanding; their injecting is almost always spot on.
While it doesn't really change much making mules and injecting auto-cast (there will still be situations where it's better to inject manually), I'm worried about the change to chrono-boost; they're essentially taking away the ability to pool chrono boost which is going to take away depth from the early and mid game build orders.
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I am glad to see that the majority of people intuitionally votes for the right thing. Macro mechanics schould be either removed or reduced to roughly 1/3 of their efficiency. For a better metagame!
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What do you guys think we can do to improve this poll and have Blizzard notice it?
Any ideas?
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As long as you can not come up with a samplesize of at least 150-1000 games, F you and your subjective opinion about what "zvz is now 95% of all the times in High Diamond".
Thank you.
Half-ass auto Mule and Chronoboost sucks.
Chronoboost:
One can never see what Nexus is actually casting chrono right now. And you have to single-select every nexus to chrono. Interface-wise it sucks. If you are chronobooting 4 structures (forge,forge, Robo, Robo bay) but you need to go (forge,Forge, Robo, Robo) you better go to every nexus, select chrono back on nexus 4x, then in reverse order nexus-building 4x.
Mule:
Even worse.
Terran could always get additional commandcenters, now almost useless when not yet planted at a mineral line. Also if a base mines out, you better relocate the CC, or hit 1/4 of your mules manually, and better watch the cooldown.
While 3/4 of the mules are now mining automatically.
Also the mule-Timing. If you mule after a trade-off, when your's and the opponent's Army count is low, you can spam mules, and protect the base you are spamming at (just an example).
Same goes for hidden bases.
And because every base is mining out faster now, terran has to relocate one CC every 4-6 mins.
So for Terran and Protoss, the Half-Ass-Auto things are crap. It is beyond annoying if you have to work around the flaws manually. Making it a "macro Waypoint" in orange would help very much, at least for protoss (also if you can just CG all nexi and Spam Chrono in a circle...or you can select the boosted building and transfer chrono directly without clicking nexus)
Auto-Inject or removed inject ?
Does not matter. If you remove the inject you got to balance the larva production.Both result in Zerg getting automated production capable of mass-reproduce without any skill. Queens will be build either way, to defend and spread creep.
Inject is what defined zerg macro. It was hard, and it was unforgiving. But so was forgetting to build or use Barracks and Cycles of Warp-ins.
But yes it is not fun. It is hard, just for the sake of being hard, and instead of building the correct production facilities at the right time, in the right place, it was pretty mindnumbing. More Larva, always good.
Zerg without having to do injects is very fun, sending out never ending rivers of ling bling against protoss :D so good.
"But the Game is so fast now!" Yeah, so it is for terran and protoss.
Zerg with automated Larva, be it inject or just the hatch, feeels wrong for the other races. Or you add a spell that instantly calls down units for unspent resources like in the Campaign (WoL)
The fact that some matches TEND to be dominated by low-Tier units (looking especially at Terran streams by Demuslim, and Narut0 from TakeTV) is based on the 12 Worker start and need of spending your ressources very fast into mobile units.
TvT is now marine tank again ( I LOVE THAT BTW) . Marines in greater numbers are good vs. almost any Terran unit in low numbers.
You simply don't have the time to get into mech, at least right now, so you go with marines and add tanks later.
Vs Protoss terran need to fight of the cannonpylons, the adepts, the warp prism. Again Bio, as always is the way to go. + Lib harass
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I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful.
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On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful.
So did I and I loved it. Care to actually have an argument or are we just discussing opinions here?
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I've actually cancled my pre-order of sc2 LOTV because of the direction they're taking with the game. I really liked when they took away mules and chrono boost but when they added it back, and even buffing mechanics that i was hoping they'd take away, such as photon overcharge, I just gave up hope.
I really hope that blizzard sees this thread and takes it into consideration.
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I dislike that the macro mechanics boost the economy, i like that they make the game harder mechanically.
If you remove them ADD something macro related to the game (at least for zerg)
That would be my initial opinion i guess.
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On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful.
False, I've played 300+ games and no MM was great, minus auto inject which is terrible.
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On September 16 2015 01:55 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. False, I've played 300+ games and no MM was great, minus auto inject which is terrible.
On September 16 2015 00:51 Bazik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. So did I and I loved it. Care to actually have an argument or are we just discussing opinions here?
Okay, guys, please tell me why. Now, when I say I love the macro mechanics keep in mind I feel they do not detract from ANYTHING since they are literally only a second or so of your time of your time, they are not that hard, and 2 of them actually make for some interesting choices (occasionally).
Do you feel that looking at your base for 1-2 seconds every minute+ is detracting from the battles? Do you prefer the game being SUPER slow (it was for Terran at least, didnt get anywhere near maxing or having the money required for nice sim cities/upgrades).
The battles were the same for me, but less often since people were afraid to move out. If you lost workers on both sides the game essentially went to a slow crawl with huge times between action. Less expanding since you don't mine out bases as fast, making less multipronged attacks. More crazy all ins designed to take out workers that made the game incredibly random and slow. At least that was my experience.
What do you really think it brings to the table, you can't possibly tell me the macro mechanics took away from battles or micro?
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On September 16 2015 01:55 Little-Chimp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. False, I've played 300+ games and no MM was great, minus auto inject which is terrible.
He didn't specify you.
The game feels lackluster, I play SC2 because it's the most engaging game out there, the fact that I feel my actions are often useless (although in theory you can endlessly move your army most of the time it's worthless or doesn't require all my actions/speed)
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On September 16 2015 02:06 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 01:55 Little-Chimp wrote:On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. False, I've played 300+ games and no MM was great, minus auto inject which is terrible. Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 00:51 Bazik wrote:On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. So did I and I loved it. Care to actually have an argument or are we just discussing opinions here? Okay, guys, please tell me why. Now, when I say I love the macro mechanics keep in mind I feel they do not detract from ANYTHING since they are literally only a second or so of your time of your time, they are not that hard, and 2 of them actually make for some interesting choices (occasionally). Do you feel that looking at your base for 1-2 seconds every minute+ is detracting from the battles? Do you prefer the game being SUPER slow (it was for Terran at least, didnt get anywhere near maxing or having the money required for nice sim cities/upgrades). The battles were the same for me, but less often since people were afraid to move out. If you lost workers on both sides the game essentially went to a slow crawl with huge times between action. Less expanding since you don't mine out bases as fast, making less multipronged attacks. More crazy all ins designed to take out workers that made the game incredibly random and slow. At least that was my experience. What do you really think it brings to the table, you can't possibly tell me the macro mechanics took away from battles or micro?
Terran being shitty without mule is a balance issue and doesn't excuse having macro mechanics in there. Terran needed adjusting numbers wise, they didn't necessarily need the Mule back. Personally no, I don't mind injecting at all but they are unecessary and I'm pretty sure if blizz could go back and do it all again, macro boosters would be left out. I LOVE that killing workers meant something without macro boosters
For me it goes properly balanced game without MM>>> hots macro mechanics >>>> this new halfway shit >>>>autocast stuff
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On September 15 2015 14:10 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2015 13:50 hitpoint wrote:On September 15 2015 13:23 DooMDash wrote:On September 15 2015 13:09 WrathSCII wrote:On September 15 2015 12:03 DooMDash wrote:
Can't believe the results I'm seeing. What did you expect? I figured TL of all places would enjoy the macro mechanics. This poll scares me. Macro is awesome. Macro mechanics are the best part of the game. And by that I mean building supply, units, and structures. Macro boosters are cancer and make the game too volatile. That said, anything is better than automation. I always felt it was consistent. Can you explain why you feel this way? I always felt it was just a quirk of the race, like anything else unique to that race. I like that they are different, the same way I appreciate the other differences.
So many ugly things about this game stem from these macro boosters. Cheeses, allins, and imbalances. Not to mention they only speed up the game, which just makes it harder to scout dangerous things. Pros have been saying since the start of WoL that the game is ridiculously fast compared to BW. More specifically though, here are some things I hate about macro boosters.
Terran losing huge amounts of SCVs and it barely even matters = bad.
Terran sacrificing all their SCVs late game to have a large army is something I hate with a burning passion.
Terran pulling the boys but it's okay because they have orbitals = volatility.
Protoss always being ahead on upgrades = volatility.
Protoss gimmicks become ultra strong with chrono = volatility.
Zerg losing their whole army and then remaxing a different comp = volatility. Yes, it may be fun and entertaining but does it really make the game better? I'm not sure.
Zerg pooling larvae in zvz and suddenly wins the game with 30 speedlings when he sees the other guy hatching drones = volatility.
A defending Zerg losing two queens to harass, and then having their crippled production snowball into 2k banked minerals and a slow painful death = volatility.
Not to mention, mule is not a macro mechanic. Macro is building units, and structures. "Macro mechanic" is a phrase that get's thrown around, but for terran it really is just an economy "booster". Terran get's free income spikes at no cost, not even attention. There is no cooldown on mules, or penalty for missing them as long as your energy doesn't cap. Terran's real "macro mechanic" that can be compared with chrono and inject is having to build addons. So the mule, as a "macro mechanic," only makes the game worse in every regard. If terran is a bad race without mules, then that's something to be addressed through balance patches. Maybe then they can buff the siege tank finally.
Also, I think zerg would actually get much harder to play if inject was removed and we could only build from larvae that hatcheries naturally spawned. Instead of just using 20 larvae at once we would need to hit production cycles, essentially, to keep from being capped. Which is WAY harder than injecting every once in a while, and then building all of our units at once. Except that queens are no longer a source of vulnerability, which also adds stability to the game.
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Thanks for making this OP. It seems to be the type of thing that help the Beta process, as long as people are being honest about what they've played and are not theorycrafting.
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On September 16 2015 00:51 Bazik wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 00:30 DooMDash wrote:
I doubt many people who answered this poll even played the beta in the removed macro state. I played hundreds of games and it felt awful. So did I and I loved it. Care to actually have an argument or are we just discussing opinions here?
He probably doesn't evaluate design but the balance during this period.
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During that period the game was alot slower and build orders all seemed streamlined into CC first / triple hatch / nexus 1st, etc. The game went from being very volatile to almost no volatility. It wasn't a perfect design. I think it was an interesting novelty but it was too slow and bland.
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EPT
