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Please keep the QQ to a minimum if you do not like this update. We are happy to hear your reasoning for not liking a ranked system, but no "OMG VOLVO WHY" posts. | ||
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makmeatt
2024 Posts
On December 30 2013 01:51 Plansix wrote: Once again, not caring if you win or lose is critical to improving. As a curveball, in my opinion playing to win is the best way to improve. Dealing with losses is related, but another thing. | ||
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swedewannabe
Sweden28 Posts
If you are better than what your rating is and play regularly, it will rise very fast despite those unlucky games with completely awful teammates. | ||
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
of course only my opinion so i wont continue this debate | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
Like...really? You will improve the most from losses, but if you do not strive for wins it will be a harder way I would say. The will to win can be a great teacher, but you have to be cool headed. Also improvement doesn't necessarily lead to more wins, usually the best improvement is gained when you go on a loss streak and you analyze your play. Maybe Gosi can attest? | ||
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Kupon3ss
時の回廊10066 Posts
+25mmr, nothing that couldn't have been done by unfair bot | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
i guess | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
You will always win more by improving. Not true if your opponents are surpassing you, agree? I think yes. So restate this into, you will always win more if you improve at greater scale than your opponent. And the second part But you will not necessarily improve by winning more. So, everyone is improving, when time goes on right? We stated that in previous statement. You may win a lot for some time, you hit plateau/people catch up. Now you have to improve to win more. And when you start winning again, it means that you improved. So for a short time, 2nd part might be true, but on the long run winning always equals improving. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:09 thOr6136 wrote: So for a short time, 2nd part might be true, but on the long run winning always equals improving. His statement isn't about the long run. It's about the process by which you play the game in the short term. The idea is that there are certain ways of playing the game that will get you more wins sooner, but which involve less improvement as a player (for example, my example of grinding games on just one hero). Things that really let you practice a lot of things and improve you more are likely to take longer to actually translate into you winning more. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
You might not improve on a general level, but your play for a certain hero will improve...and that's what matters right. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:13 Andre wrote: Playing a certain hero well is a part of DotA. You might not improve on a general level, but your play for a certain hero will improve...and that's what matters right. Only if you expect to keep playing that single hero. As soon as you drop him you start losing and possibly make the game even more frustating for you. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 30 2013 01:54 makmeatt wrote: As a curveball, in my opinion playing to win is the best way to improve. Dealing with losses is related, but another thing. Winning is not the best way to improve. If I wanted to win more games, I would insta-lock CM and play support every game. However, I need to learn new heroes and become a more well rounded player. The same went for SC2 when it came to learning new builds. You can do the same build forever, but it doesn't mean you're a good, well rounded player. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:13 Andre wrote: Playing a certain hero well is a part of DotA. You might not improve on a general level, but your play for a certain hero will improve...and that's what matters right. You'll improve some, but it's a lot less, especially if you are playing in games that are below your effective MMR with that particular hero. Stomping bad players at a hero or role that you're already really good with doesn't really teach you anything. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On December 30 2013 01:44 Kupon3ss wrote: Caring about winning is fundamentally unrelated to caring about improving. Learning to understand the game and improving is usually quite different than winning more. Just look at the people in this thread complaining about "tryhard pickers and bad teammates" in trying to win more instead of looking at themselves. It's funny how you say "Learning to understand the game and improving is usually quite different than winning more" and then try and argue that MMR is meaningful...? You do realize you just basically said that improving has nothing to do with winning, yet MMR is based on win/loss. So you're saying that one can improve and gain a better understanding of the game without actually winning more games and therefore not gain MMR. I definitely agree with this because it is absolutely true, though I was under the impression that you thought otherwise and now you say this? | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:16 TheYango wrote: You'll improve some, but it's a lot less, especially if you are playing in games that are below your effective MMR with that particular hero. Stomping bad players at a hero or role that you're already really good with doesn't really teach you anything. I don't see the problem here. Look at Bulldog. Heroes are an integral part of dota, if we're going to make a distinction in improvement between general dota skill and specific hero skill then I think there's an issue. I would go as far as to say that there's certain heroes that if played en masse can teach you more about dota than just playing random stuff. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:23 MidgetExplosion wrote: It's funny how you say "Learning to understand the game and improving is usually quite different than winning more" and then try and argue that MMR is meaningful...? You do realize you just basically said that improving has nothing to do with winning, yet MMR is based on win/loss. So you're saying that one can improve and gain a better understanding of the game without actually winning more games and therefore not gain MMR. I definitely agree with this because it is absolutely true, though I was under the impression that you thought otherwise and now you say this? It almost looks like you assume your opponents always have the same MMR. MMR isn't only based on win/loss, it's also based on your team's rank vs the opponents. Add how your opponents MMR also change when you improve and suddenly everything makes sense. | ||
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MidgetExplosion
United States137 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:03 Kupon3ss wrote: you will always win more by improving, but you will not necessarily improve by winning more One is absolutely NOT guaranteed to win more by improving. If that were true then every person who plays would have to have more than 50% winrate because no one is as bad playing their 300th game as they were when they played their 1st. This is just a blatant falsehood. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
But then screw that i hope that wont happen in dota2 and i will defo not playing solo rmm again, unless they enforced actual 'solo' rmm but then i doubt that i would care much about it. Nowadays it is more about finding time to actually play the game -_- | ||
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thOr6136
Slovenia1775 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:13 SKC wrote: Why will you win more by improving? Maybe it has a small immediate effect, but improvement happens slowly. You always end up around 50%, unless you are near the top. Just check the amount of people with high winrates at lower ranks. It's very rare, and often because of things like only picking a single hero or how you play with stacks. That doesn't mean noone wants to improve. Only if you expect to keep playing that single hero. As soon as you drop him you start losing and possibly make the game even more frustating for you. Read my post, what he means is improving more then your opponents. That's behind his first part. Only not phrased. At least i see it as obvious. You will win more on the long run if you are better than opponents. No question about it. | ||
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