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On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits.
Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself.
Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game.
Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few.
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On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few.
there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has...
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There are quite a few heroes with similar game impact, but none with such a low skill requirement
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On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has...
Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with.
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On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with.
You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least.
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On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has...
Nightstalker at night is the only one i can think of that comes close. Same snowbally and at night scary op-potential in pubs.
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On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with.
U will carry there game because the more u gank or help setup ganks. the slower the enemy will scale. So, eventually, if u gank enough it doesnt matter if they are really bad.
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To summarize ES:
- there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has
- low skill requirement
- From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane
- 45% win rate in pubs
Some elements seem to be missing in this theorycrafting.
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On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with.
I'd probably do better on ES with low mmr players than on Antimage, even though I haven't played a single game of ES. Low MMR players do not understand anything and will straight up lose the game before 10 minutes.
As in, they fight 4v5 willingly without the main carry instead of stalling.
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ES should be nerfed, same as Brood, Slark and Necro3. Those things ruin half my games right now.
And for randoming heroes, I think its very good if you are truely capable of playing every role/most heroes. As said before, if you random a strong toptier or personal toptier hero its a huge boost (jungler has stoutshield, cb and RoR/branches+heal kickstart, support can instabuy chick/wards which also motivates teammates, easylane can start pms or mega fast HoM depending on lane, midlane can start bottle or domination with null/wraith+branches+regen, and offlane can buy wards+boots+heal or sth like that).
The important factor imo is, you have to instarandom so your team can adaept (and should be willing to, which occurs more often at higher levels) which leaves your hero open to counters and therefore you should consider repicking some hardcountered heroes which in the end works also in your favor.
My feeling is that one should never repick support into higher role (if not requested), thats very demotivating and if you random meepo, sniper or a hero you cant play, tell your team asap so everyone sees you are taking it serious and is motivated.
Also if your hero can play multiple roles, write in chat that you can play roles x and y, so people with a smaller range of heroes can play their best role.
On January 17 2014 22:38 Laurens wrote:
To summarize ES:
- there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has
- low skill requirement
- From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane
- 45% win rate in pubs
Some elements seem to be missing in this theorycrafting.
I dont know about low skill requirement here ...
Many active spells that need to be understood, combined, aimed and chained with teammates. Sure thats doable on higher levels, but lowtier players barely can handle 2 active spells, not even mentioning active items.
So while he is very strong in the right hands, he would be totally useless in lowtier. Just check public winrates on dotabuff, the best winrate heroes have strong, straight forward abilites with clear purpose and low need for chain or advanced play in general.
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On January 17 2014 22:21 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with. You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least.
Thats how it should work right? Unfortunately if your enemy has good wards, tps when required and overall has good teamplay then you go down in effectiveness a lot. You simply cannot be everywhere at once and although ES is overpowered in the sense that in equally skilled team vs equally team skilled then the team with ES will probably win, but in the sense of what I am talking about (solo queueing with randoms) you simply cannot carry that hard, I have better success pubstomping with ursa or pushing lanes with broodmother than I do with ES, why? Because ES ultimately relies on your team in the lategame while with ursa/broodmother u can still pull wins out of nowhere if you get fed/split push hard enough.
On January 17 2014 22:43 mTwRINE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:38 Laurens wrote:
To summarize ES:
- there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has
- low skill requirement
- From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane
- 45% win rate in pubs
Some elements seem to be missing in this theorycrafting. I dont know about low skill requirement here ... Many active spells that need to be combined, aimed and chained with teammates. Sure thats doable on higher levels, but lowtier players barely can handle 2 active spells, not even mentioning active items. So while he is very strong in the right hands, he would be totally useless in lowtier. Just check public winrates on dotabuff, the best winrate heroes have strong, straight forward abilites with clear purpose and low need for chain or advanced play in general.
Agree 100% with this, this is why I dont get flustered so much when people complain about ES being OP in a low mmr game, ultimately its a harder than average play hero but once you learn how to play it and have good team coordination he is monstrous.
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On January 17 2014 22:50 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:21 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with. You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least. Thats how it should work right? Unfortunately if your enemy has good wards, tps when required and overall has good teamplay then you go down in effectiveness a lot. You simply cannot be everywhere at once and although ES is overpowered in the sense that in equally skilled team vs equally team skilled then the team with ES will probably win, but in the sense of what I am talking about (solo queueing with randoms) you simply cannot carry that hard, I have better success pubstomping with ursa or pushing lanes with broodmother than I do with ES, why? Because ES ultimately relies on your team in the lategame while with ursa/broodmother u can still pull wins out of nowhere if you get fed/split push hard enough.
Well, in response to "play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players" I am telling you that in my own low MMR games, ES is able to win almost single-handedly in a way that I haven't experienced with any other hero. People don't have good tps, wards or reactions since it isn't a high mmr bracket.
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Czech Republic18921 Posts
On January 17 2014 22:38 Laurens wrote:
To summarize ES:
- there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has
- low skill requirement
- From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane
- 45% win rate in pubs
Some elements seem to be missing in this theorycrafting.
"low skill requirement" is relative. He's really bad if a really bad player plays him. Still bad if a bad player plays him. Mediocre when an average player plays him. Decent when a good player plays him. Amazing when an above average player plays him. And unbeatable when an amazing player plays him. The vast majority of people playing DotA range from really bad to average, that's why he has a 45% winrate on dotabuff. It would be interesting if someone made a graph with Earthspirit winrate based on how much mmr the player playing him has.
e: And yeah, I don't think he's a particularly easy hero. I would say he's pretty far above average in terms of mechanics. He starts getting easy once mechanics are not an issue, so in very high level games.
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The biggest problem with ES: he is a LoL hero.
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On January 17 2014 22:54 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:50 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 22:21 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with. You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least. Thats how it should work right? Unfortunately if your enemy has good wards, tps when required and overall has good teamplay then you go down in effectiveness a lot. You simply cannot be everywhere at once and although ES is overpowered in the sense that in equally skilled team vs equally team skilled then the team with ES will probably win, but in the sense of what I am talking about (solo queueing with randoms) you simply cannot carry that hard, I have better success pubstomping with ursa or pushing lanes with broodmother than I do with ES, why? Because ES ultimately relies on your team in the lategame while with ursa/broodmother u can still pull wins out of nowhere if you get fed/split push hard enough. Well, in response to "play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players" I am telling you that in my own low MMR games, ES is able to win almost single-handedly in a way that I haven't experienced with any other hero. People don't have good tps, wards or reactions since it isn't a high mmr bracket.
Well, maybe my experiences are different from most but at lower levels of play when i play with brand new friends I can't carry most of the time with ES, however with different heroes i have no problems. Could just be some other factor but I dont experience what you do.
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On January 17 2014 23:00 Anesthetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 22:54 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:50 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 22:21 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with. You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least. Thats how it should work right? Unfortunately if your enemy has good wards, tps when required and overall has good teamplay then you go down in effectiveness a lot. You simply cannot be everywhere at once and although ES is overpowered in the sense that in equally skilled team vs equally team skilled then the team with ES will probably win, but in the sense of what I am talking about (solo queueing with randoms) you simply cannot carry that hard, I have better success pubstomping with ursa or pushing lanes with broodmother than I do with ES, why? Because ES ultimately relies on your team in the lategame while with ursa/broodmother u can still pull wins out of nowhere if you get fed/split push hard enough. Well, in response to "play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players" I am telling you that in my own low MMR games, ES is able to win almost single-handedly in a way that I haven't experienced with any other hero. People don't have good tps, wards or reactions since it isn't a high mmr bracket. Well, maybe my experiences are different from most but at lower levels of play when i play with brand new friends I can't carry most of the time with ES, however with different heroes i have no problems. Could just be some other factor but I dont experience what you do.
I mean, if you're just stacking with noobs and you are 4-5k then there's a 4-5k mmr am or some shit ricing on the other team so that would complicate things.
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On January 17 2014 22:57 Animzor wrote:
The biggest problem with ES: he is a LoL hero.
Impossible, has 5 skills and doesn't come with blink at level one.
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Yes, you obviously need some basic skills to play es (breathing, having more than 1 working hand and maybe even some knowledge about dota) but if you are anywhere decent at the game es will be the most op hero imaginable.
I would really advise people who are not decent at the game to withhold their arguments because they are probably not true at the level at which people are complaining about him.
I know that anecdotal evidence is a very weak argument but here's just a recent game with someone who is a decent es player; http://dotabuff.com/matches/472232401.
This is not a solitary case, although other heroes can get equally out of control ES has it A LOT easier to just ravage the game.
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On January 17 2014 23:03 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2014 23:00 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 22:54 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:50 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 22:21 hifriend wrote:On January 17 2014 22:15 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 21:49 gaymon wrote:On January 17 2014 21:40 Anesthetic wrote:On January 17 2014 20:06 ChunderBoy wrote:
im happy being able to go 36-6 after being 0-4 at min 5 due to an es raping me.
ppl, when in a winning position, usually get too cocky and overestimate their limits. Thats probably because ES cannot win games by himself. Sure he has great early/midgame ganking potential, sure he has great teamfight and disable, but when it comes down to it ES can not carry a game if you dont have a good team. On the other hand ive seen my team feed an LC or other hard carry a bunch of kills in the early game and no matter how many kills i get as an ES I will still lose the game. Also as other people have said there are heroes that can punish him for being aggressive, doom, alchemist, viper, OD just to name a few. there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has... Try this, make a smurf account, play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players, then do the same with a carry and tell me which one you have the most success with. You don't even have to carry. From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane, then rinse and repeat. After that your level advantage and midgame items like urn/drums should allow you to pick easy fights with anyone for the next 15 minutes, and even if your teammates are horrible they are allowed to do whatever they want throughout the early/mid game. That's how 90% of my ES games at 3.6k pan out at least. Thats how it should work right? Unfortunately if your enemy has good wards, tps when required and overall has good teamplay then you go down in effectiveness a lot. You simply cannot be everywhere at once and although ES is overpowered in the sense that in equally skilled team vs equally team skilled then the team with ES will probably win, but in the sense of what I am talking about (solo queueing with randoms) you simply cannot carry that hard, I have better success pubstomping with ursa or pushing lanes with broodmother than I do with ES, why? Because ES ultimately relies on your team in the lategame while with ursa/broodmother u can still pull wins out of nowhere if you get fed/split push hard enough. Well, in response to "play es and try to see if u can solo carry low mmr players" I am telling you that in my own low MMR games, ES is able to win almost single-handedly in a way that I haven't experienced with any other hero. People don't have good tps, wards or reactions since it isn't a high mmr bracket. Well, maybe my experiences are different from most but at lower levels of play when i play with brand new friends I can't carry most of the time with ES, however with different heroes i have no problems. Could just be some other factor but I dont experience what you do. I mean, if you're just stacking with noobs and you are 4-5k then there's a 4-5k mmr am or some shit ricing on the other team so that would complicate things.
No im talking about playing on a separate account made specifically to play with brand new players while they learn the game.
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On January 17 2014 22:38 Laurens wrote:
To summarize ES:
- there is no hero who has even close to the game impact es has
- low skill requirement
- From lvl 3 you can just reliably gank every lane
- 45% win rate in pubs
Some elements seem to be missing in this theorycrafting.
Prepatch bat had similar winrate before TI3 in pubs... It's broken when people has a clue at what they do, not that it's hard to execute.
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EPT
