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Ukraine Crisis - Page 461

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15366 Posts
April 29 2014 13:58 GMT
#9201
They are special forces. Being "in readiness" is basically their job. Doesn't mean there is any intention at all to use them in Ukraine. Never going to happen.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 29 2014 14:00 GMT
#9202
On April 29 2014 22:58 zatic wrote:
They are special forces. Being "in readiness" is basically their job. Doesn't mean there is any intention at all to use them in Ukraine. Never going to happen.


That's what i was trying to say.
On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 15:32:53
April 29 2014 14:13 GMT
#9203

VIENNA, 29 April 2014 – OSCE Representative on Freedom of the Media Dunja Mijatović today denounced new cases of kidnapping and attacks on journalists, the recent takeover of a regional television station in Donetsk and illegal switching of broadcasts.

“Impunity for assailants of journalists and broadcasters is escalating the tensions and contributing to the deterioration of the security situation. I am dismayed by the lack of response by the law enforcement authorities to these attacks. Rule of law must be re-introduced in Ukraine,” Mijatović said.

Unidentified uniformed and armed people seized the Donetsk Regional Television and Radio Company and a regional transmission centre and replaced some local broadcasts with Rossiya 24. Digital broadcasts of all Ukrainian channels were switched off along with analogue signals of UT1, ICTV, 1+1 and 5 Kanal and some were replaced with Russian broadcasts.

Yurii Lelyavskii, a freelance journalist with ZIK channel from Lviv and Sergei Shapovalov, a journalist with VolynPost news portal from Lutsk, were detained in Sloviansk and their current whereabouts are unknown. Ruslan Kukharchuk, a journalist with the Novomedia journalists’ association, was also detained by unidentified persons in Sloviansk and released after 13 hours.

Yesterday in Donetsk, Richard Gaisford and Simon Llewellyn from ITV (UK), and Yevgenii Shibalov, a journalist with the Zerkalo Nedeli newspaper, were attacked by protesters during a rally. Shibalov received head injuries and the ITV camera was damaged.

Reportedly new accreditation procedures have been introduced by the unofficial local leaders in Sloviansk. Journalists without credentials will not be allowed into administrative buildings or attend press briefings and might not be allowed to enter the town.

In Donetsk, the staff of 62.ua news portal was intimidated by a group of uniformed, armed people demanding that the journalists obtain their approval before publishing any reports.

Yesterday in Kyiv, protesters demanded that the Inter and ICTV channels stop broadcasting a Russian television series. During the protest at Inter, doors and windows of the offices were damaged and smoke grenades thrown inside. The channel continued to broadcast.
Source.



***




***

Moscow is subjecting Ukrainians, Russians and the rest of the world to an intense campaign of disinformation that tries to paint a dangerous and false picture of Ukraine’s legitimate government. Russia Today, the Moscow-based TV network financed by the government, is a key player in this campaign of distortion. Along with its Russian operation, RT operates an English-language broadcast out of Washington.

Last week, Secretary of State John Kerry referred to RT as a "propaganda bullhorn," which was promoting Russian President Vladimir Putin's "fantasy." The result was a predictable howl of protest from RT's editor, who claimed the State Department knows little about what is really happening in Ukraine today and had the audacity to request an apology.

I spent seven years as the managing editor of TIME magazine before joining the State Department. I understand the difference between news, propaganda and opinion. Propaganda is the deliberate dissemination of information that you know to be false or misleading in order to influence an audience.

From assertions that peaceful protesters hired snipers to repeated allegations that Kiev is beset by violence, fascism and anti-Semitism, these are lies falsely presented as news. An opinion is subjective and not a statement of fact. Opinions, however odious, are defensible speech in a way that false claims are not. RT is a distortion machine, not a news organization.
Consider the way RT manipulated a leaked telephone call involving former Ukrainian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. Through selective editing, the network made it appear that Tymoshenko advocated violence against Russia. Or the constant reference to any Ukrainian opposed to a Russian takeover of the country as a "terrorist." Or the unquestioning repetition of the ludicrous assertion last week that the United States has invested $5 billion in regime change in Ukraine. These are not facts, and they are not opinions. They are false claims, and when propaganda poses as news it creates real dangers and gives a green light to violence.

Sometimes it’s even too much for the people paid to make these claims. The network's clear bias led to an unprecedented on-air rebellion. First, the host of RT America, Abby Martin, condemned Russia's invasion of Crimea on a broadcast. Then one of the network's anchors, Liz Wahl, resigned on air, saying, "I cannot be part of a network funded by the Russian government that whitewashes the actions of Putin."

Yet, even so, I would defend the right of RT to broadcast. The First Amendment protects speech that we reject as much as speech that we embrace. The State Department facilitates RT’s coverage by giving them unrestricted access to our briefings. No one is arguing that RT should be taken off the air the way Moscow has abruptly ended the license that allows Voice of America to broadcast to Russians. Free access to information is a basic principle, even if that information is nothing more or less than propaganda. But the network and its editors should not pretend that RT is anything other than another player in Russia's global disinformation campaign against the people of Ukraine and their supporters.
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Shady Sands
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4021 Posts
April 29 2014 15:45 GMT
#9204
Oh, great. The (literally) bloody T word gets dragged into the debate again....
Что?
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 29 2014 16:18 GMT
#9205
On April 30 2014 00:45 Shady Sands wrote:
Oh, great. The (literally) bloody T word gets dragged into the debate again....


To be fair, by definition, some of them are. Not the ukrainian seperatists, but the russians in between them.
On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 16:55:54
April 29 2014 16:22 GMT
#9206
Excellent piece, but as it has videos and pictures, I won't try to copy it here:



***

Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
April 29 2014 17:01 GMT
#9207
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 29 2014 17:12 GMT
#9208
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote:
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.


There's quite alot of assumptions or plain wrong statements in there. Maybe you're not sure because you didn't make the effort to "investigate" for yourself.
On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 183001
Profile Joined May 2011
2939 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 17:19:59
April 29 2014 17:14 GMT
#9209
On April 30 2014 00:45 Shady Sands wrote:
Oh, great. The (literally) bloody T word gets dragged into the debate again....

I expected it much sooner to be honest. Nazis are to Russia as terrorists are to the US. Everyone Russia/US don't like is obviously one, regardless if they actually are or not. Meanwhile, anyone they like or support is under no circumstances of being labeled as such, even if they fit the definition to the hilt. Welcome to politics.
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
April 29 2014 17:20 GMT
#9210
On April 30 2014 02:12 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote:
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.


There's quite alot of assumptions or plain wrong statements in there. Maybe you're not sure because you didn't make the effort to "investigate" for yourself.


Oh enlighten me about the wrong parts?
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 17:35:23
April 29 2014 17:33 GMT
#9211
On April 30 2014 02:20 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 02:12 m4ini wrote:
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote:
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.


There's quite alot of assumptions or plain wrong statements in there. Maybe you're not sure because you didn't make the effort to "investigate" for yourself.


Oh enlighten me about the wrong parts?


I agree with the assessment. Things that are wrong:

- Language used is different: Euromaidan was prompted by a) Yanukovich breaking his election promise to sign an EU agreement, b) Corruption, c) Laws against protesting and criticizing the govt., d) Violence against protesters. Pro-Russia guys want: a) a referendum on joining Russia, b) rights to use their language, c) ???
- Actions are different: Euromaidan activists wanted to remain at the Maidan and keep on protesting. When the police left, they did not take over govt. buildings, and even protected the area from looting. In the East, even in Luhansk and Donetsk, you have very few actual protests, instead you have small armed gangs of men, led by Cossacks from Russia. They do targeted attacks such as taking over admin buildings (needed for the elections) or taking over TV broadcasting buildings to turn off Ukrainian media and to turn on Russian media. Or the capture dissenting journalists.
- As is quite evident, despite the pro-Russia guys using lethal force, the Ukrainian army and special forces are not returning the favour.
- I fail to see how `other nations' fueled the Euromaidan, in fact, Western leaders tried to ignore it for three months, and only when it became a violent conflict did they send diplomats to help negotiate a deal. Furthermore, before that point, the EU had told Yanukovich that the EU agreement is off the table because of his actions. I guess that counts as fueling the protesters, but not in the way you would like to make the argument...

P.S. I didn't recognize your name, so I thought I'd be nice and answer your question. But next time, please read up on the discussion (this thread is actually a rather comprehensive source) before making a loaded statement.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 17:43:30
April 29 2014 17:39 GMT
#9212
On April 30 2014 02:20 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 02:12 m4ini wrote:
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote:
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.


There's quite alot of assumptions or plain wrong statements in there. Maybe you're not sure because you didn't make the effort to "investigate" for yourself.


Oh enlighten me about the wrong parts?


How about you read it up yourself? I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but every two days or so someone stumbles in here with (more or less) the same assumptions, sidetracking the thread for a while as people try to bring them up to par.

As a small note for example, without citing sources (you can dig it out easily though, if interested): "In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protest [..]". Wrong. The berkut was used against "peaceful protesters". You had the occasional chaots/stonethrowers, sure - but as a german, you should know about "1 Mai Demos". Do you see german snipers on the roof, shooting in the crowd? Now you take the "anti-Maidan" protests, and check what happened there. What is being attacked are the guys carrying heavy assault rifles, storming buildings. And they themselves kill, torture and kidnap quite alot of people. So that "statement" of yours is entirely wrong. In fact, i wouldn't call any of those "fact". A bit of tinfoiling and a bit of assumptions, that's about it.

edit: Ghanb.. (seriously you need a new name -,-) explained it in more detail and nicer. Go with his explanation, not this one.
On track to MA1950A.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
April 29 2014 17:50 GMT
#9213
On April 30 2014 02:14 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 00:45 Shady Sands wrote:
Oh, great. The (literally) bloody T word gets dragged into the debate again....

I expected it much sooner to be honest. Nazis are to Russia as terrorists are to the US. Everyone Russia/US don't like is obviously one, regardless if they actually are or not. Meanwhile, anyone they like or support is under no circumstances of being labeled as such, even if they fit the definition to the hilt. Welcome to politics.

Terrorism is one of the most ill-defined words in international politics. When that is said, nazism would only seem like a slightly more defined ideology (Only one "true" example and not that much different from generic dictatorships at the time apart from some flavour in propaganda.). Both are getting bend like Beckham in the name of rightiousness.
Repeat before me
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 29 2014 17:52 GMT
#9214


That's correct, Russia waited until it saw the sanctions, then started pushing for new areas to capture, i.e., Luhansk.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
PaleMan
Profile Joined October 2002
Russian Federation1953 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 17:59:20
April 29 2014 17:57 GMT
#9215
On April 30 2014 02:33 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 02:20 mahrgell wrote:
On April 30 2014 02:12 m4ini wrote:
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote:
I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden...

The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides...

Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts...
In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times...
In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force.
In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda.
In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view.


There's quite alot of assumptions or plain wrong statements in there. Maybe you're not sure because you didn't make the effort to "investigate" for yourself.


Oh enlighten me about the wrong parts?



- Actions are different: Euromaidan activists wanted to remain at the Maidan and keep on protesting. When the police left, they did not take over govt. buildings, and even protected the area from looting.

wrong
euromaidan activists took over administrative buildings in Kiev and other regions

i will post only 1 link, cause i have no time: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-protesters-seize-building-in-kiev-as-standoff-with-viktor-yanukovych-intensifies/
srsly how can you so blatantly lie?
In the East, even in Luhansk and Donetsk, you have very few actual protests, instead you have small armed gangs of men, led by Cossacks from Russia. They do targeted attacks such as taking over admin buildings (needed for the elections) or taking over TV broadcasting buildings to turn off Ukrainian media and to turn on Russian media. Or the capture dissenting journalists.
- As is quite evident, despite the pro-Russia guys using lethal force, the Ukrainian army and special forces are not returning the favour.

again wrong
its so called separatists who try not to attack army forces cause there are a lot of recruits who don't want to fight
they fight special forces like SBU though


I fail to see how `other nations' fueled the Euromaidan, in fact, Western leaders tried to ignore it for three months, and only when it became a violent conflict did they send diplomats to help negotiate a deal. Furthermore, before that point, the EU had told Yanukovich that the EU agreement is off the table because of his actions. I guess that counts as fueling the protesters, but not in the way you would like to make the argument...


when you fail to see smthing it doesn't mean it isn't exist

TL:DR for new users in the thread: don't listen to Ghan
Pure fan
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 29 2014 18:06 GMT
#9216
wrong
euromaidan activists took over administrative buildings in Kiev and other regions
i will post only 1 link, cause i have no time: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-protesters-seize-building-in-kiev-as-standoff-with-viktor-yanukovych-intensifies/
srsly how can you so blatantly lie?


Talking about blatantly lying, and then citing a source that even states that this happened after protesters were shot, is rich. But expected from you.

again wrong
its so called separatists who try not to attack army forces cause there are a lot of recruits who don't want to fight
they fight special forces like SBU though


What? Source?

when you fail to see smthing it doesn't mean it isn't exist

TL:DR for new users in the thread: don't listen to Ghan


If it's just you saying "it does exist", doesn't mean it does.

The last sentence is hilarious though.
On track to MA1950A.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-29 18:22:02
April 29 2014 18:20 GMT
#9217
Btw. regarding Russias media... They are becoming more and more vile even to the point where the russian government seems to shut up or try to deescalate that insane ecco chamber. Russias government doesn't want another very problematic to integrate and in short terms economic black hole, like Crimea. What they seem to want is a new independent state of "Novorossia" carved out from Ukraine. They have to stretch history a bit to get the northern and eastern regions of Kharkiv and Luhansk into that mix, but it has the benefit of stretching down through Mykolaiv and Odessa to Transdniester. Maybe Zhirnovsky is foresighted and a consistent voice of reason? He did demand the split of Ukraine a month ago.
Repeat before me
PaleMan
Profile Joined October 2002
Russian Federation1953 Posts
April 29 2014 18:39 GMT
#9218
radiatoren, believe it or not Zhirinovsky demanded the split of Ukrain in 2010
its very weird cause he is considered a clown
Pure fan
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
April 29 2014 19:40 GMT
#9219
On April 30 2014 03:39 PaleMan wrote:
radiatoren, believe it or not Zhirinovsky demanded the split of Ukrain in 2010
its very weird cause he is considered a clown

Yeah, he is quite the character and not least because of that I believe you.
It takes quite a character to go and demand a change of the world map. Especially when another country is independent and its legitimate leaders doesn't agree.
Repeat before me
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 29 2014 19:54 GMT
#9220
On April 30 2014 04:40 radiatoren wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 30 2014 03:39 PaleMan wrote:
radiatoren, believe it or not Zhirinovsky demanded the split of Ukrain in 2010
its very weird cause he is considered a clown

Yeah, he is quite the character and not least because of that I believe you.
It takes quite a character to go and demand a change of the world map. Especially when another country is independent and its legitimate leaders doesn't agree.


Like Ukraine is an independent country and its legitamate leaders didn't agree with crimea being annexed?
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
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