EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 463
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5580 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:05 Cheerio wrote: you are blatantly wrong on that one, educate yourself. In what way? It was in February when things got out of hand. Before that Yanukovich showed a lot of restraint (just look at how other countries deal with illegal riots/protests, including Western Europe). The buildings were being taken in January. Maybe I shouldn't have said "Maidan" if by that you mean only the protests in Kiev, though. I meant the anti-Yanukovich movement in general. edit: @Mc I don't see how this is supposed to be a transitional government when Party of Regions has become illegal in many parts of Ukraine (and Svoboda etc. in Eastern Ukraine). The upcoming elections will be a farce. As for fascists, most Batkivshchina politicians also love their mass murderers... Including Yulia and Yushchenko. As far as I am concerned, Yanukovich was put between a rock and a hard place. In my opinion, Russia simply outbid the EU, so when Yanukovich finally had to make a decision, he sided with Russia. The protests that followed were completely disproportionate. Those people truly believed that joining the EU was within reach, in a matter of years, apparently (many populists, e.g. Timoshenko, were telling that to people)... | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
the difference between the protests and the separatists? what is being compared is maidan and antimaidan, in response to mc stating that a difference between anitmaidan and maidan was antimaidans violent behaviour. @ghan i don't quite get what you are saying. can you elaborate? casualties reported in: nytimes cnn reuters theguardian bbc | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:17 maybenexttime wrote: In what way? It was in February when things got out of hand. Before that Yanukovich showed a lot of restraint (just look at how other countries deal with illegal riots/protests, including Western Europe). The buildings were being taken in January. Maybe I shouldn't have said "Maidan" if by that you mean only the protests in Kiev, though. I meant the anti-Yanukovich movement in general. Good job completely neglecting reality. Other countries btw don't "deal" with protests. They let them happen. Look at germany, and what happens here on may first. And again. What you're refering to happened on january 23rd, and i just told you, that on january 22nd three (iirc) protesters were killed. That's commonly known as "reaction". Look what happened in the US when afro-americans went rioting because of.. one afro-american died somehow, can't remember, i'm sure one of the americans here can help me out there. And again. A day before what you cited as "occupations of EuroMaidan", a couple of protesters were killed. what is being compared is maidan and antimaidan, in response to mc stating that a difference between anitmaidan and maidan was antimaidans violent behaviour. No. I think, at least that's for me since i'm with him there - it's not about the "violent behaviour" itself, but when it turned violent. EuroMaidan by itself was not violent. It started as a peaceful protest (in fact, it started exactly half a year ago, almost on the dot). Pretty much like the turkish protests started to be a shitfest as soon as the police attacked and chaots took over. On the other hand, anti-maidan didn't escalate. It started right away with assault rifles and storming buildings. To me, there's quite a difference. They didn't even try being peaceful. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5580 Posts
Do riots in Paris and London ring a bell? The police was, oh, so peaceful. The level of violence from the rioters was not even comparable to Maidan. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:06 nunez wrote: @mc apprehended by an armed group, right sector is the usual suspect: osce you were asking how many were captured by maidan, if you want antimaidan to encompass the separatists, then maidan surely encompasses the ultranationalists... LOL ironic source. You say "right sector is the usual suspect" and support that with the following article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27206280 There's violent thugs on both sides, pro-Russia nationalists and pro-Ukraine nationalists. The difference is the widespread support for Euromaidan and the much lesser support for pro-Russian separatism. And again, the violence (proportionally), weapons, beating of innocent civilians, storming of government buildings, taking over tv-broadcasting, etc, etc is larger on the pro-Russian side. But you live in your own world of conspiracy theories and opinion/propaganda articles, so I'm sure I won't convince you. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:28 maybenexttime wrote: @m4ini Do riots in Paris and London ring a bell? The police was, oh, so peaceful. The level of violence from the rioters was not even comparable to Maidan. Good job again ignoring the fact that i stated. Not to mention that more violent protests with less casualties kinda don't really help your case. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
ah, misclicked, this is the bbc link for sloviansk shootings... bbc. you weren't comparing maidan to separatism. you were comparing maidan to antimaidan. how does this supposed popular support change how violent antimaidan or maidan is? most people in eastern ukraine don't support separating from ukraine, but most of them don't consider kiev govt legitimate either... how was maidan support in east and south? prolly ended abruptly when the elected president who east and south voted for were ousted! i'm waiting for sources on number of people killed and tortured by antimaidan, since you were making the claim. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:36 nunez wrote: @mc ah, misclicked, this is the bbc link for sloviansk shootings... bbc. you weren't comparing maidan to separatism. you were comparing maidan to antimaidan. how does this supposed popular support change how violent antimaidan or maidan is? most people in eastern ukraine don't support separating from ukraine, but most of them don't consider kiev govt legitimate either... how was maidan support in east and south? prolly ended abruptly when the elected president who east and south voted for were ousted! i'm waiting for sources on number of people killed and tortured by antimaidan, since you were making the claim. We have the two river guys which were tortured before they were killed/slashed open (to use the headline), we have svoboda-reporter found in a forest, we have several journalists being beaten and kidnapped, we have a couple of hostaged SBU members (which were reported to be beaten up), and that's as far as i got for now. EuroMaidan had 110 victims, plus 13 policemen. AntiMaidan has 15 deaths so far (i take your number, suppose it's right), at least three of them are right wing dudes. If i can be arsed, i will check further. I bet i overlooked quite alot. edit: sources, meh Forest guy, the two river guys, SBU kidnapping etc, you followed the thread, i won't go through every tweet to find sources for every dude that was kidnapped, misplaced, beaten and whatnot. Feel free to argue that these things never happened then, you'd lie to yourself since i'm pretty much convinced you lurk here as much as i do. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
you state that antimaidan started with ppl armed with assault rifles storming buildings. can you be a bit more specific hm? the two river guys in slavyansk, has there been an autopsy or similar to determine torture? i've seen 'signs of torture' from kyivpost but is unreliable and not conclusive, but maybe i missed an url or sth. one of them was a pro-kiev politician, the other was a maidan activist from kiev (iirc, at least west ukraine and what was he doing in slavyanskis anyones bet). under what circumstances they were killed is unclear, as it is with the 3 antimaidans who were shot at a checkpoint. those killings being related might be a safe bet. forest guy, any info on who is suspected to be behind it? early april in kiev doesn't sound like an antimaidan related crime. from the article it (also) says: Svoboda's spokesman Yury Syrotiuk said on Sunday he believed Sergiyenko's death was linked to a feud with a local businessman, Hennady Bobov – a prominent deputy in Yanukovych's Party of Regions. This claim has not been substantiated. seems a bit harsh to attribute this to antimaidan... | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:36 nunez wrote: @mc ah, misclicked, this is the bbc link for sloviansk shootings... bbc. you weren't comparing maidan to separatism. you were comparing maidan to antimaidan. how does this supposed popular support change how violent antimaidan or maidan is? most people in eastern ukraine don't support separating from ukraine, but most of them don't consider kiev govt legitimate either... how was maidan support in east and south? prolly ended abruptly when the elected president who east and south voted for were ousted! i'm waiting for sources on number of people killed and tortured by antimaidan, since you were making the claim. So the pot called the kettle black. I usually use the term "pro-Russian separatists" or something similar when I refer to the protestors in E. Ukraine. I did once recently say "anti-Maidan/pro-Russian" protestors and I assume that's what you're referring to. However, you are the one *constantly* referring to separatists as anti-maidan. that's 2 by nationalists, and 3 dead antimaidan self-defense forces. who killed those i wonder? antimaidan? , if you want antimaidan to encompass the separatists, then maidan surely encompasses the ultranationalists... ^here you switch it up to fit into your story line. Be consistent in your bullshit please. antimaidan is dwarfed by maidan in terms of violence, 15 casualties, in maidan there were over 100 (wiki). not sure if any security forces has died yet (i know there was an accident on a bridge), mostly from violent clashes between nationalists and antimaidan (nationalists shooting antimaidans in khrakov f.ex. or easter shooting outside slovyansk). seems like antimaidan has met little resistance from police force in taking over govt buildings unlike maidan. So, clearly a lot of South/East Ukraine is against the current Kiev government. If you want we can call them, anti-maidan, but you keep referring to the separatists as anti-maidan (and it's even rubbing off on some of the other commentators m4ini and me for example). And "antimaidan self-defense forces"... that's a funny way to call armed separatists. i'm waiting for sources on number of people killed and tortured by antimaidan, since you were making the claim. I never used the term tortured/casualties deaths. You are the one who keeps bringing up casualties to disprove my argument about *violence*. I was making a general comparison that by and large, EuroMaidan was more peaceful (proportionally) and had less unprovoked violence. Separatists are characterized by weapons, and storming of buildings. EuroMaidan was mostly unarmed, outdoor protests with no weapons. It did escalate over time in response to police violence. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:58 nunez wrote: @m4ini you state that antimaidan started with ppl armed with assault rifles storming buildings. can you be a bit more specific hm? On the other hand, anti-maidan didn't escalate. It started right away with assault rifles and storming buildings. You can, if you want, play dumb to discredit that statement - i assumed you were smarter than that. Show me where "antimaidan" escalated into storming buildings. On the other hand, i could show you "antimaidan" occupations from march 1st. Which leaves alot of time for peaceful protests, right? About, let's say, what. Half a week? Not even remotely getting where, you know, armed people were sieging (and occasionally taking) ukrainian bases in crimea? Remember Sevastopol Airport? Don't play dumb, it starts to get a bit annoying since i suspect you actually know better. I never used the term tortured/casualties deaths. You are the one who keeps bringing up casualties to disprove my argument about *violence*. No, that was an argument between me and him, since i stated that half of those 15 (well, +- one i suppose) were killed by those "protesters", whereas the 110 victims of euromaidan were protesters - and he drew the conclusion that euromaidan was alot more violent because of that. Well, yes, it was - but not because of the protesters, as the numbers show, but as i said, i think he actually knows better. Edit: we could also call them "rebels", couldn't we? | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:58 nunez wrote: @m4ini you state that antimaidan started with ppl armed with assault rifles storming buildings. can you be a bit more specific hm? http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140429/timeline-unrest-east-ukraine http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine#Timeline The first unrest seems to be March 30th http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592899/Pro-Russian-activists-rally-Ukraine-clash-police-John-Kerry-meets-Putins-foreign-minister-Paris-bid-calm-tensions.html Google news w/ date-range specified (really good tool to back up your claims): https://www.google.com/search?q=donetsk&client=ubuntu&hs=wAy&channel=fs&biw=976&bih=509&sa=X&ei=1TBgU7PuDKbW4ATumICYCA&ved=0CBsQpwUoBQ&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:3/1/2014,cd_max:4/1/2014&tbm=nws Also, this fact is often omitted. The pro-Russian protests didn't happen until *AFTER THE CRIMEAN REFERENDUM*. If the protests are really anti-Kiev why did it take them so long to start? To me it seems like the catalyst for the protests was Russian annexation of Crimea, along with Russian presence on Ukrainian border, and anti-Kiev sentiment. If it was anti-maidan sentiment that drove the protests why did it take a month after the interim-government was elected to start protesting??? | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 08:16 Mc wrote: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/140429/timeline-unrest-east-ukraine http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine#Timeline The first unrest seems to be March 30th http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592899/Pro-Russian-activists-rally-Ukraine-clash-police-John-Kerry-meets-Putins-foreign-minister-Paris-bid-calm-tensions.html Google news w/ date-range specified (really good tool to back up your claims): https://www.google.com/search?q=donetsk&client=ubuntu&hs=wAy&channel=fs&biw=976&bih=509&sa=X&ei=1TBgU7PuDKbW4ATumICYCA&ved=0CBsQpwUoBQ&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:3/1/2014,cd_max:4/1/2014&tbm=nws Also, this fact is often omitted. The pro-Russian protests didn't happen until *AFTER THE CRIMEAN REFERENDUM*. If the protests are really anti-Kiev why did it take them so long to start? To me it seems like the catalyst for the protests was Russian annexation of Crimea, along with Russian presence on Ukrainian border, and anti-Kiev sentiment. If it was anti-maidan sentiment that drove the protests why did it take a month after the interim-government was elected to start protesting??? The first time i read about "pro russian activists" or "pro russian militia" was feb 28th, at sevastopol airport. I didn't check thoroughly though, since i'm starting to lose my understanding for what he refers to as "antimaidan". Feels a bit like a nice cozy word that doesn't include, or better, only includes what he feels suits his argument. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
i didn't switch it up, i used the wording from the article i posted re: the nationalists, and those killed on the checkpoint were at least self-defense forces. were they separatists? i dunno, maybe. is nationalist derogatory term now? you seem very confused, let me help you out. just like maidan antimaidan encompasses a whole spectrum of different people and their actions... protestors, armed thugs, separatists, self-defense forces. this is the first (of many) entries from wiki on pro-russian unrest, dated to third of march: rian.com.ua Since the end of February 2014, demonstrations by pro-Russian and anti-government groups have taken place in major cities across the south-eastern regions of Ukraine, in the aftermath of the 2014 Ukrainian revolution and the Euromaidan movement. wikianother: For the third day, mobs of pro-Russian demonstrators broke through lines of Ukrainian riot police and stormed city government headquarters in Donetsk. cbsnewsControl of this building has come to symbolize control of Donetsk, this deeply divided city next door to Crimea. And while the pro-Russian protesters declared victory from the rooftops on Wednesday, by Thursday afternoon they had lost control again. for the third day, dated to... 6th of march, so 03.03 again! not people with assault rifles storming buildings. referendum was... 16 of march no? so, are you gonna back up your claim of how 7.5 people killed by antimaidan protestors? if you understand what maidan means, you ought to be able to wrap your head around what antimaidan entails. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
so, are you gonna back up your claim of how 7.5 people killed by antimaidan protestors? if you understand what maidan means, you ought to be able to wrap your head around what antimaidan entails. First of all, you brought "antimaidan" into the picture, nobody else. Which is in fact, just what it says. Protests against EuroMaidan. What's happening now is nothing "antimaidan" (that's why i put quotations on it every single time). Your wikilink is weird though, why wouldn't you quote the actual article on antimaidan? I was talking about pro-russian seperatists, militias, everything that started after EuroMaidan "ended". Since you use "antimaidan" in the wrong way (since it's pretty well documented what "antimaidan" is, and they're not tied to any deaths afaik) Maidan btw. means "place/square", so your comment of "wrapping my head around what antimaidan means" doesn't even make sense. I specified a bit, since 7,5 (yawn) deaths is kinda not working out, half of the deaths, +-1. I already linked you three after 2 minutes of googling, and am not really in the mood to look further to disprove your point even more. Maybe i'll get you a couple more tomorrow. (edit: if there are more, that is - obviously) Oh, and you ignored in your tirade, again, the sevastopol airport incedent. Could you repeat what happened there? To make it easier to find, it was on february 28th. I never said it started "after crimean referendum", so i don't know why you're trying to point that out. In fact, i linked more than one example that exactly states that. you seem very confused, let me help you out. just like maidan antimaidan encompasses a whole spectrum of different people and their actions... protestors, armed thugs, separatists, self-defense forces. That's actually wrong. And if it's correct (in the sense we're using it in - it's still wrong in terms of actual "antimaidan"), then "they" started armed occupations on 28th of february on sevastopol airport. edit: just read your edit further up - feel free to reject everything there, as i said, doesn't really matter to me. We both only can go with what media tells us, if you want to put up theories, feel free to. That doesn't change the fact that these deaths are not dead "antimaidans", and are still in those 15 deathcounts. As are the three dudes of slovyansk roadblock, which are controversal in the other direction as well. But i certainly can't be arsed to analyse every single dead person now, i'll stick with occams razor in this case. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
maidan, short for euromaidan, feels like a justified and obvious abbreviation in this thread. antimaidan seems like a good catch-all for what is happening across eastern southern ukraine in response to maidan and the resulting "junta" (haha). tbh i didn't even realize it had a wiki-page. you have yet to link the forest guy to antimaidan, yo. re: sevastopol, are you suggesting russian armed forces are a part of antimaidan? if you have a point you should try to make it yourself, i'm not gonna make it for you. usually when a post starts with @mc i'm talking to mc, but i forgive your confusion. you two are very simliar... the wiki page seems very shaky, and has 'multiple issues'... ;> | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 09:27 nunez wrote: @m4ini maidan, short for euromaidan, feels like a justified and obvious abbreviation in this thread. antimaidan seems like a good catch-all for what is happening across eastern southern ukraine. tbh i didn't even realize it had a wiki-page. you have yet to link the forest guy to antimaidan, yo. re: sevastopol, are you suggesting russian armed forces are a part of antimaidan? if you have a point you should try to make it yourself. usually when a post starts with @mc i'm talking to mc, but i forgive your confusion. you two are very simliar... Maidan is not the short for EuroMaidan though. EuroMaidan is EuroMaidan. Especially if you have two "Maidans" (euro and anti - edit: three, auto as well). Maidan means square, and EuroMaidan literally means "Eurosquare", as a place. While i agree that "antimaidan" is kinda catchy, it's not what it is. Antimaidan was basically the antifa-part of a hooligan-demonstration. Counter-protests. That's it. No storming stuff, no (fire)weapons, nothing of that sort. I'd stick to "pro russian seperatists", since i bet alot of the actual antimaidan people don't want to be brought together with those thugs right now (even though allegedly they were paid, i bet there were people actually against EuroMaidan, i'm talking about those). As polls show, those "seperatists" hold as little value to normal persons as the kiev-government right now. About forest dump, even rt.com is good enough. Pay special attention to who actually found the body, burried in a forest, 15km outside of town. Here you can see something interesting though. Automaidan (never heard of it, but let's roll), seems to be a thing, and look what happened to one of the leaders of those. I know i paint a picture here, but everyone to his conclusions. About sevastopol: so you're saying that it actually was russian soldiers storming sevastopol airport, even though it was specifically stated that these people were not part of the russian army? the wiki page seems very shaky, and has 'multiple issues'... ;> Well. So are most of your sources most of the time, yet sometimes you convince someone that statefunded isn't inherently bad.  edit: #antimaidan is used as you describe it though, i give you that. It still only adds confusion, so i'd rather stick to what i said further up. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11527 Posts
Find some common way to call either groops, and then talk about actual issues instead. This is getting exceedingly silly. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 09:52 Simberto wrote: Can you guys stop arguing semantics? That is kind of utterly pointless. Find some common way to call either groops, and then talk about actual issues instead. This is getting exceedingly silly. Isn't that what we're doing right now? Edit: not to mention that it's kinda not pointless if three people see three different things behind the term "antimaidan". The main-discussion between nunez and me is about the deaths related to "the opposites", semantics are only a sidenote of that. | ||
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