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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 04:54 hunts wrote: Like Ukraine is an independent country and its legitamate leaders didn't agree with crimea being annexed? Either your sarcasm meter is off or radiatoren is an idiot. I think it's the former  | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 30 2014 05:01 Mc wrote: Either your sarcasm meter is off or radiatoren is an idiot. I think it's the former It is a legitimate question. The answer is ofcourse yes. Both Yanukovych, the new president of Ukraine and the ukrainian constitution weren't/aren't too hot on the idea and the independence of Ukraine should not be a question at all. Even Russia accepts the independence to some degree even though they have an unconventional interpretation of what that means. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 30 2014 02:01 mahrgell wrote: I'm not exactly sure, how the protests/uprising now are much different from the initial Euromaiden... The used language and methods are pretty much the same, just that the parties involved changed sides... Both events had violent and peaceful 'protesting/uprising' elements, and depending on which side certain nations and media were favoring, they simply ignored either the peaceful or violent parts... In both events administrative buildings were stormed by the protesters and held for longer times... In both events everyone not supporting the (at this time in power) states position was labelled terrorists, unrightful, illegal, and had to be crushed by force. In both events foreign nations did their best to fuel the uprisings even more, if it fit their own agenda. In both events the security forces were supposed to crush the protests/uprising by the state and it's allies, and requested by the protesters and their allies to refuse their orders and change sides... Those that did, were called traitors/heroes, again depending on view. Most notable differences: - administrative buildings takeovers during Euromaidan happened twice after police started shooting protesters. The takeovers in Eastern Ukraine started once local activists received enough support from Russia and Crimea. - takeovers during Euromaidan were not done with the aim to take and hold power, they were temporary measures against discredited government. While in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea, local separatist leaders clearly aim to get in control of the regions and to annex them from the rest of Ukraine. - takeovers during Euromaidan were being held by huge crowds, spontaneous and disorganised. I remember in western Ukraine when one of the buildings caught on fire some of the protesters were trying to extinguish the flames, while others kept throwing molotovs at it. Takeovers in Eastern Ukraine are generally being held by small and heavily armed groups of people who "move in military formations". - about the numbers. For example in Kyiv at the peaks of the protestests the crowd was around 1 million people (Kyiv has 3-5 depending on how you define it). My hometown Cherkassy had 25 thousands at the peak (less than 300 thousands population. Todays protests which led to takeovers in Lugansk had like 2 thousand (?) people (450 thousands population). | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
Good summary of the differences. I'd add these two 1.) EuroMaidan protestors were just protestors at the beginning. The police/Berkut tried to forcefully disperse them which led to conflict. The separatists were the exact opposite- they started off with taking over government buildings, attacking police stations, attacking pro-Ukraine protests from the very beginning. If I recall correctly, there were a few anti-Maidan/pro-Russia protests during the Crimea crisis but nothing really came of them. Then all of a sudden within the span of a few days, police stations/government buildings were being attacked by armed thugs in about 5~10 towns at the same time. 2.)I'd also add a propensity to thuggery and violence characterizes the separatists. How many journalists were captured by EuroMaidan? How many times did you see EuroMaidan protestors brutally beat defenceless civilians? The only time I saw beatings from the "EuroMaidan side" is right sector football hooligans in Donetsk. I'm sure it's happened more often than that, but I've seen countless videos of pro-Russian thugs brutally attacking a peaceful protest that had *only* Ukrainian flags (no right sector). It's disgusting. How many professionally trained and fully equipped military people did you see at EuroMaidan? E. Ukraine has a lot more guns for a lot less protestors. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
http://www.dw.de/german-government-distances-itself-from-schröder-after-putin-embrace/a-17600263 | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 06:15 Mc wrote: Yeah and there's some serious man love between Schroder and Putin. http://www.dw.de/german-government-distances-itself-from-schröder-after-putin-embrace/a-17600263 Crooks tend to surround themselves with crooks. Nothing new. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5752 Posts
Also, it is false to say that Maidan started to get aggressive only after the governmental forces did. In Western Ukraine governmental buildings were being taken several weeks before shit hit the fan in Kiev: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Euromaidan_regional_state_administration_occupations Anyway, Maidan asked for this whole mess. It has overthrown a democratically elected government of thieves and installed a putschist government of thieves and fascists, what did they expect to happen? They set a precedent. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
antimaidan is dwarfed by maidan in terms of violence, 15 casualties, in maidan there were over 100 (wiki). not sure if any security forces has died yet (i know there was an accident on a bridge), mostly from violent clashes between nationalists and antimaidan (nationalists shooting antimaidans in khrakov f.ex. or easter shooting outside slovyansk). seems like antimaidan has met little resistance from police force in taking over govt buildings unlike maidan. Following the takeovers, President Turchynov demanded the dismissal of the police chiefs in Luhansk and the other eastern city of Donetsk. bbc"The overwhelming majority of law enforcement bodies in the east are incapable of fulfilling their duty to defend our citizens," he said. Pro-Russia activists control much of the neighbouring Donetsk region. osce has reported missing journalists from both sides. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
antimaidan is dwarfed by maidan in terms of violence, 15 casualties, in maidan there were over 100 (wiki). Difference is that these 100 casualties were mostly, if not entirely protesters, whereas the 15 casualties now are not. These 15 casualties, at least half of them if not more were killed by the "protesters". Also please stop trying to compare stonethrowers with people who wear military equipment up to heavy assault rifles. By that measure, there's literally no peaceful protest, ever, anywhere. There's zero relation. I know both is "violence", but one has to keep it real. Also, it is false to say that Maidan started to get aggressive only after the governmental forces did. In Western Ukraine governmental buildings were being taken several weeks before shit hit the fan in Kiev: edit: wrong timeline before - still your statement is wrong. Killing of protesters started exactly one day before, on jan 22nd, whereas you already stated as a fact that the occupations started on jan 23rd. Looks a bit like escalation to me, how about you? | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
i'll give you a head start. 3 were in easter shootings, 2 where in khrakov shootings. that's 2 by nationalists, and 3 dead antimaidan self-defense forces. who killed those i wonder? antimaidan? i didn't include the security forces in the maidan. there were 13 killed, 272 injured and 67 captured security forces during maidan. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 06:46 nunez wrote: @mc antimaidan is dwarfed by maidan in terms of violence, 15 casualties, in maidan there were over 100 (wiki). not sure if any security forces has died yet (i know there was an accident on a bridge), mostly from violent clashes between nationalists and antimaidan (nationalists shooting antimaidans in khrakov f.ex. or easter shooting outside slovyansk). seems like antimaidan has met little resistance from police force in taking over govt buildings unlike maidan. osce has reported missing journalists from both sides. I'm talking about violence caused by the protestors. Snipers (whoever they were) did most of the killing at EuroMaidan. Either way, you cannot deny that the average EuroMaidan protestor was much less likely to carry a weapon, carry an assault rifle, or to beat a defenceless civilian. OSCE reported journalists missing from both sides? I never heard that, but regardless who is doing the capturing? Are you claiming that EuroMaidan captured journalists? I could see the SBU doing something of that manner, but haven't seen any evidence. It's quite clear that nearly all of the captured journalists were captured by separatists. Yes, there are similarities, and both sides have their ugly sides. No one can deny that, but the proportions clearly point to the separatists being more thugish/violent. Right Sector was a small (but significant) portion of EuroMaidan. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22083 Posts
How is the lack of dead people of any importance in this? | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On April 30 2014 06:45 maybenexttime wrote: Also, it is false to say that Maidan started to get aggressive only after the governmental forces did. In Western Ukraine governmental buildings were being taken several weeks before shit hit the fan in Kiev: you are blatantly wrong on that one, educate yourself. hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hrushevskoho_Street_riots | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
apprehended by an armed group, right sector is the usual suspect: osce you were asking how many were captured by maidan, if you want antimaidan to encompass the separatists, then maidan surely encompasses the ultranationalists... @gorsameth you have the sniper shootings in kiev figured out now? please show. when you want to compare how violent to things are is relative to each other, comparing how much violence those things created seems like a good start. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Also, we all saw livestreams of what happened in the Maidan. And now we see livestream of thugs attacking peaceful protesters with clubs. We can make our own conclusions, thank you very much. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
look at these people mourning as they bury no bodies. always a kick when ppl feel defensive and seek comfort in pretending they are speaking for a group. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22083 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:06 nunez wrote: @mc apprehended by an armed group, right sector is the usual suspect: osce you were asking how many were captured by maidan, if you want antimaidan to encompass the separatists, then maidan surely encompasses the ultranationalists... @gorsameth you have the sniper shootings in kiev figured out now? please show. when you want to compare how violent to things are is relative to each other, comparing how much violence those things created seems like a good start. Your not trying to compare violence. Your stating random "facts" and try to attach meaning to them. The difference between the protests and the separatists are so huge and comparison is meaningless. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:11 nunez wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF8jJEGm-Uo look at these people mourning as they bury no bodies. always a kick when ppl feel defensive and seek comfort in pretending they are speaking for a group. Yes, your 180 view video with footage that looks like it's from the 80's is great evidence against the reports of international journalists that didn't see bodies. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On April 30 2014 07:11 nunez wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF8jJEGm-Uo look at these people mourning as they bury no bodies. always a kick when ppl feel defensive and seek comfort in pretending they are speaking for a group. Were they armed at that roadblock? I missed that story somehow. If yes, gtfo trying to twist reality. If not, well, i might be wrong. Trying to get all the deaths related to antimaidan together, takes a while. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
On April 30 2014 06:45 maybenexttime wrote: Why do people keep bringing up Yanukovich supposedly breaking his election promise (as if that was something rare in democracy anyway...)? He got few votes in Western Ukraine and not much more in Central Ukraine, where Maidan took place. Most of his voters did not support joining the EU and I highly doubt that it was the reason why some of them voted for him. The people who started Maidan were not his electorate - how can they feel cheated if they did not vote for him? That doesn't make much sense. Also, it is false to say that Maidan started to get aggressive only after the governmental forces did. In Western Ukraine governmental buildings were being taken several weeks before shit hit the fan in Kiev: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Euromaidan_regional_state_administration_occupations Anyway, Maidan asked for this whole mess. It has overthrown a democratically elected government of thieves and installed a putschist government of thieves and fascists, what did they expect to happen? They set a precedent. Do you really expect a group of hundreds of thousands of protestors to be 100% peaceful? Of course, there were some more aggressive elements (even at the beginning). But in general it was protestors marching, chanting,singing, etc. Some of them (maybe right sector, maybe just people caught up in mob mentality) tried to storm a government building unsuccessfully. The fascists statement is an inaccurate exaggeration. First the amount of influence the right-wing has in the government/parliament is not that big. Secondly, the whole point is that this is a TRANSITION government, that is supposed to be replaced by a new elected government in May. Clearly, Maidan was the beginning of this whole mess but to say that it is "responsible" for this mess is quite silly. You could just as well blame the EU - for trying to pander to the aspirations of 50% of a divided country or Russia for constantly agitating, invading Crimea, and 24/7 lying propaganda. | ||
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