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Ukraine Crisis - Page 457

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Roman666
Profile Joined April 2012
Poland1440 Posts
April 27 2014 17:40 GMT
#9121
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?

Western media do not do "interviews" and "press conferences" with hostages.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 17:53:07
April 27 2014 17:44 GMT
#9122
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


I'd go with the not-state-funded media, which is known to be abused for propaganda and general bullshitting.


edit, nvm, bad mood
On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 27 2014 17:46 GMT
#9123
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
April 27 2014 18:10 GMT
#9124
On April 28 2014 02:44 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


I'd go with the not-state-funded media, which is known to be abused for propaganda and general bullshitting.


edit, nvm, bad mood


there's nothing inherently bad with state-funded media.
it's the particular state that is the problem.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 27 2014 18:34 GMT
#9125
On April 28 2014 03:10 nunez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:44 m4ini wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


I'd go with the not-state-funded media, which is known to be abused for propaganda and general bullshitting.


edit, nvm, bad mood


there's nothing inherently bad with state-funded media.
it's the particular state that is the problem.


I want my media as far away from being "interferable" as possible. Statefunding, while not inherently bad, takes a big chunk away from that. And states/govs always try to interfere/manipulate, not just through funding (white house press conferences are a good example for that).

I agree though, that in this case it's less the funding itself, but the media whoring itself out.
On track to MA1950A.
LocalPredictor
Profile Joined March 2014
Russian Federation17 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 18:52:25
April 27 2014 18:40 GMT
#9126
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That's ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That's ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That's ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?

Edit: Only by having right concept you can distinguish false from truth. But right concept is very hard to find.
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 27 2014 18:46 GMT
#9127
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That' ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply just not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That' ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That' ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?


Only difference is you're bashing western media (which isn't controlled by the state while yours is) for quoting a government you call "illegitimate" while you call the crimea annexation "legitimate" and then defend the separatists forcing interviews out of hostages. Did I miss anything?
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
LocalPredictor
Profile Joined March 2014
Russian Federation17 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 19:25:14
April 27 2014 19:07 GMT
#9128
On April 28 2014 03:46 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That' ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply just not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That' ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That' ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?


Only difference is you're bashing western media (which isn't controlled by the state while yours is) for quoting a government you call "illegitimate" while you call the crimea annexation "legitimate" and then defend the separatists forcing interviews out of hostages. Did I miss anything?


Yes you did. There were video where Dmitry Yarosh say he is going to explode Russian ships, kill russian marines and many other stuff. That you didn't know this doesn't mean that it was not. But these talks are pointless since you don't have some "background".
edit. Ok. Our mass-media is controlled by govt. Take a look at yours - Your massmedia is controlled by the huge bankers and transnational corporations. So is your govt. You know what i'm driving at?
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 27 2014 19:18 GMT
#9129
On April 28 2014 02:44 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


I'd go with the not-state-funded media, which is known to be abused for propaganda and general bullshitting.


edit, nvm, bad mood

Western media is less independent from the government than you'd think. The difference between it and direct state funding is trivial.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
April 27 2014 19:29 GMT
#9130
On April 28 2014 04:07 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 03:46 hunts wrote:
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That' ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply just not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That' ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That' ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?


Only difference is you're bashing western media (which isn't controlled by the state while yours is) for quoting a government you call "illegitimate" while you call the crimea annexation "legitimate" and then defend the separatists forcing interviews out of hostages. Did I miss anything?


Yes you did. There were video where Dmitry Yarosh say he is going to explode Russian ships, kill russian marines and many other stuff. That you didn't know this doesn't mean that it was not. But these talks are pointless since you don't have some "background".
edit. Ok. Our mass-media is controlled by govt. Take a look at yours - Your massmedia is controlled by the huge bankers and transnational corporations. So is your govt. You know what i'm driving at?


But you got this information from russian news right? The same russian news that has been shown to completely fabricate stories? You know what I'm driving ?
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
LocalPredictor
Profile Joined March 2014
Russian Federation17 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 19:41:50
April 27 2014 19:39 GMT
#9131
On April 28 2014 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 04:07 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 03:46 hunts wrote:
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That' ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply just not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That' ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That' ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?


Only difference is you're bashing western media (which isn't controlled by the state while yours is) for quoting a government you call "illegitimate" while you call the crimea annexation "legitimate" and then defend the separatists forcing interviews out of hostages. Did I miss anything?


Yes you did. There were video where Dmitry Yarosh say he is going to explode Russian ships, kill russian marines and many other stuff. That you didn't know this doesn't mean that it was not. But these talks are pointless since you don't have some "background".
edit. Ok. Our mass-media is controlled by govt. Take a look at yours - Your massmedia is controlled by the huge bankers and transnational corporations. So is your govt. You know what i'm driving at?


But you got this information from russian news right? The same russian news that has been shown to completely fabricate stories? You know what I'm driving ?

It would've been much funnier if I continued the "you know what i'm driving..." trend, but this should be stopped Now back to the point. No, you are wrong. I got this information from the american sources, so you can no longer exploit the "completely fabricate russian news" factor))) I actually could show you some of them right now if I manage to find one. want that?
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 20:07:29
April 27 2014 19:44 GMT
#9132
On April 28 2014 04:29 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 04:07 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 03:46 hunts wrote:
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
4) That' ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply just not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That' ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That' ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?


Only difference is you're bashing western media (which isn't controlled by the state while yours is) for quoting a government you call "illegitimate" while you call the crimea annexation "legitimate" and then defend the separatists forcing interviews out of hostages. Did I miss anything?


Yes you did. There were video where Dmitry Yarosh say he is going to explode Russian ships, kill russian marines and many other stuff. That you didn't know this doesn't mean that it was not. But these talks are pointless since you don't have some "background".
edit. Ok. Our mass-media is controlled by govt. Take a look at yours - Your massmedia is controlled by the huge bankers and transnational corporations. So is your govt. You know what i'm driving at?


But you got this information from russian news right? The same russian news that has been shown to completely fabricate stories? You know what I'm driving ?

Western media do not cover Yarush very much since he is a troublemaker and too extreme for everyone.
It is something like this: source (I don't know enough about them, but Moscow Times seems relatively reasonable still even though they have been taken over by a man from RIA Novosti the predecessor to RT...)
He no longer seems to have much support from Kyiv and he is therefore not very representative for the government or the Rada. As long as numbers for the upcoming election is anything to go by, it is safe to say that he most likely will be irrelevant after the conflict deescalates! It is unfounded to judge Kyiv by his words since he is unable to get any of his crazy done politically (whether that be directly as a result of western demands on Kyiv or common sense from Yats and the Rada is hard to say)...
Repeat before me
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 27 2014 19:53 GMT
#9133
On April 28 2014 03:40 LocalPredictor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


That's easy:

1) You read all the different major news sources in the world and compare the stories. (Al Jazeera is surprisingly good in many conflicts)
2) You read independent journalists in all the countries (including Russia, you guys have good sources too...)
3) You ask for evidence, such as direct documents/photos/videos (UN reports and OSCE monitoring missions provide accurate and detailed information that's independent of any state, in fact, they often include Russian contributions).
4) You fact-check sources to determine their reliability (inconsistencies across time are a major tell (local militia turning into Russian soldiers), failure to correct falsified data is even worse).
5) You see what the journalists themselves say, RT.com was mostly written off because their own journalists spoke out against being forced to write biased news.
6) You ask technical staff (if you access to them). As long as your questions are open minded, they are often to answer happily. (Hint: twitter allows for direct messaging, and most of them are there...)
7) Etc.


Ok, here we go.
41) That's ok.
2) 1st - there are no such or they're pretty unknown. 2nd - how do you distinguish independent from dependent?
3) I do that (and what do you do if some evidences are simply not shown - that is regarding UN OSCE etc.)
4) That's ok.
5) It's not that simple, but no time to explain.
6) That's ok.

But overall all that You and I wrote before is hardly sufficient. One has to have a CONCEPT of what (in this case Ukraine crisis) is happening and why (which is much more important) is happening. So what's your concept?

Edit: Only by having right concept you can distinguish false from truth. But right concept is very hard to find.


(2) Not all of them are unknown, Navalny is pretty famous nowadays, he used to be a small blogger/journalist. There used to be many other outlets, like Dozd, or Lenta.ru, but I guess they have been killed off by now. I honestly don't know what to suggest inside Russia at the moment. I guess Moscow Times acts as a haven, but it's not what you're looking for. Anyone else have recommendations?
(3) If no evidence is presented where evidence ought to exist, you either wait or dismiss the piece of reporting as bogus. I think the Iraq war demonstrated how very important it is to actually require the State to present proof.
(5) Never is, but it's useful to talk to journos yourself. They are people, they live among us, they're more approachable than your average joe.

Regarding the concept, I'd say that you don't have it, but your mold it as you learn more. Otherwise you'd never learn anything new (very platonic or kantian that...). I'd be happy to provide a concept, but I think the closest analysis to what seems plausible to me comes from Kadri Liik:

+ Show Spoiler +

For nearly three weeks the world has been guessing what exactly President Vladimir Putin’s plan for Crimea and Ukraine was. Now we know: he has annexed Crimea and wants firm control over the rest of Ukraine and its geopolitical orientation. But he also wants a world order based on different principles. And it is this that makes Putin’s previous actions logical and understandable and makes all the pieces fall into place. This missing piece completes the puzzle of Moscow’s actions.

For a long while conventional wisdom suggested that Russia wanted to fuel separatism in Crimea in order to keep it in a Transnistria-style legal limbo that to use as a leverage over Kyiv. But this did not make sense. Russia could have gained leverage easily without ever engaging in any activities in Crimea. The government that came to power in Kyiv in late February is weak. It is as legitimate as it can be under the circumstances, but it still does not represent the whole of society in the ways that a government should. In theory, it would have been easy for Moscow to gain leverage over some of these people by using a mixture of legitimate and shadier means. But Moscow did not even make the attempt to approach them.

After the de facto takeover of Crimea, this became harder: the new government’s willingness to make any deals with Moscow and its room for manoeuvre both probably shrank. Still, for a while Moscow might have counted on the West as an ally – scared by Moscow’s military build-up and not knowing how to respond to it, the West might have been happy to put pressure Kyiv to accept some compromise with Moscow just in order to make the problem go away. But Moscow did not try to do that either. It became evident that Moscow was not interested in gaining leverage that it could use to make a deal. Instead, Moscow was in the business of creating facts on the ground.

However, Moscow’s manner of creating these facts was also puzzling. It is clear that plans for a military takeover of Crimea had been made much earlier. The logistical scenario and distribution of roles to local pawns, such as the new Prime Minister Aksenov must also have been sorted out in advance – hence the swift and smooth nature of the takeover. But Moscow had not worked out the pretext. All its claims – about extremists being at power in Kyiv, Russians being persecuted – were glaring lies. This was drastically different from Moscow’s behaviour in Georgia in 2008, where Moscow worked hard to create an acceptable moral pretext by provoking Georgians to attack first and later went to great lengths to explain how its actions were in fact compatible with international law. In Crimea, it seemed as if Russia did not really care whether its pretext was believable or not. In fact, it almost looked like Moscow rather wanted it to be unbelievable.

Here’s where the big difference between Moscow’s behaviour in Georgia in 2008 and in Ukraine in 2014 comes in: in Georgia, Moscow violated the international rules of behaviour, but pretended it had not. It cheated on the rules, but did not challenge them. In Ukraine, Moscow has challenged the whole post-Cold War European order together with its system of rules.

The post-Cold War European order has rested on a few notable pillars. The majority of its principles – the inviolability of borders, the peaceful settlement of disputes, non-interference in internal affairs, respect for human rights and minorities – were part of the Helsinki Final Act in 1975. In the late 1990s, when, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO and the EU verbalised their enlargement strategies, another principle was added: European democracies are supposed to be free to choose their alliances and join if and when they qualify.

Needless to say, real-life situations tend to be complicated and confusing and hard to solve according to idealistic principles. Furthermore, some of these are bound to clash sometimes –minority rights and non-interference in internal affairs clashed in Yugoslavia and gave birth to Kosovo when the former principle carried the day. Some countries have been dragged into alliances and organisations such as the EU and NATO without qualifying, while others have been kept out for political reasons. Sill, these have been the official guiding principles whom no one who matters has tried explicitly to dispute or challenge.

Russia’s attitude towards these principles has always been selective. Moscow has been a strong adherent of the idea of inviolability of border and non-interference in internal affairs. This has been Moscow’s guiding principle throughout the post-Cold War era and most of its major differences with the West are rooted in it. Western policies in Iraq, Kosovo and Libya have in Moscow’s opinion violated this this very basic postulate. Russia opposes the concept of the Responsibility to Protect, which is used to justify Western actions.

Indeed, respect for human and minority rights – which nominally Moscow accepts as a worthy idea – are in fact seen by Russia as a dangerous guideline, as this can be used to jeopardize the territorial integrity of states. On the other hand, Moscow is skilled in using the same argument itself in its attempts to hinder other countries’ movement in undesired geopolitical direction, towards NATO or the EU.

Moscow has never liked this newest principle –countries’ right to choose and join alliances – but after Boris Yeltsin’s clumsy and half-hearted attempt to stop NATO enlargement at Norway’s Eastern border, has never publicly challenged it either. Instead it has tried to delay the relevant applicant countries’ progress towards membership, and once – in Georgia’s case – resorted to war to achieve that.

Now, however, having annexed Crimea and mounted a credible military force at the threat borders of Eastern Ukraine, Moscow is signalling that it wants to officially do away with the idea that countries are free to choose their alliances. It wants to make everyone explicitly accept and agree that some countries are not. Moscow wants to resurrect and also re-legitimise the idea of geopolitical spheres of influence that Europe thought had been consigned to the dustbin of history in the 1990s.

Today Putin said: “We are not against cooperation with NATO, not at all. But we are against a military organisation – and NATO remains in all its internal processes a military organisation – bossing us around … close to home or on our historic territories”. He has made himself quite clear. Now it is the West’s turn to answer.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
PaleMan
Profile Joined October 2002
Russian Federation1953 Posts
April 27 2014 20:50 GMT
#9134
Kharkov ultras on the march


notice Right Sector flag

and of course some beating up follows


peaceful protesters indeed
Pure fan
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-27 22:38:58
April 27 2014 21:55 GMT
#9135
This video should make a lot of different parties in this thread happy:



Edit: Or some of them are too bitter to appreciate the bit that further confirms their point...
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 27 2014 22:03 GMT
#9136
On April 28 2014 04:18 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 02:44 m4ini wrote:
On April 28 2014 02:38 LocalPredictor wrote:
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote:
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.


And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?


I'd go with the not-state-funded media, which is known to be abused for propaganda and general bullshitting.


edit, nvm, bad mood

Western media is less independent from the government than you'd think. The difference between it and direct state funding is trivial.


That's a nice non-statement there. Any form of something like sources, anything more than "you'd think"?

On track to MA1950A.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
April 27 2014 22:26 GMT
#9137
@ghan
old news.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
April 27 2014 22:43 GMT
#9138
On April 28 2014 07:26 nunez wrote:
@ghan
old news.


I overlooked that before then, so i'm good with that repost.

I'm just wondering now, if there's russians between those seperatists, what exactly are they then? They can't be seperatists obviously, but what else? Terrorists?
On track to MA1950A.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
April 27 2014 22:59 GMT
#9139
On April 28 2014 07:43 m4ini wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2014 07:26 nunez wrote:
@ghan
old news.


I overlooked that before then, so i'm good with that repost.

I'm just wondering now, if there's russians between those separatists, what exactly are they then? They can't be separatists obviously, but what else? Terrorists?


I'd just like to point out that you shouldn't believe Nunez with his track record. That video was posted roughly an hour ago. You can check the date on Youtube and confirm that Vice hadn't uploaded it before. So it can't be a repost... He'll probably cop out and say that there have been news articles about Mozhaev before.

Terrorists, mercenaries, foreign troops are reasonable. What people seem to be using is `cossack' which refers to this particular kind of Pro-Russia rabble-troop nurtured by Putin since the Chechen war.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
April 27 2014 23:08 GMT
#9140
he was already featured in a thorough time magazine interview posted in this thread before, this interview doesn't bring anything new to the table, hence old news. capiche?
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
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