On April 27 2014 07:27 nunez wrote: huh? they are in fact the osce mission? the fuck are you talking about, they're not part of the osce mission, which russia approved, for ukraine. nothing new is reflected in the statement you posted.
so far it seems like a german led military observation team, invitied by the govt in kiev, under the osce vienna doc. seperate from the osce mission. given up as hostages to hoodlooms in slovyansk due to the incompetence said govt.
It seems that these are military observers under an OSCE agreement but not actual OSCE observers. So you are right nunez, but your rhetoric is quite ridiculous.
given up as hostages to hoodlooms in slovyansk due to the incompetence said govt.
So the hoodloms in Slavyansk capturing the military observers is due to the Ukrainian government's incompetence?!? Ukraine invited the observers and now they are captured. If something it continues making Ukraine look like a victim of violent separatists- which is what Ukrainian government wants.
You are also holding the Ukrainian government to some absurdly high standards, it's in the midst of a crisis with Russia annexing it's territory and provoking unrest in E. Ukraine. The whole country has had heavy Russian influence for decades and it's security service has close ties to FSB. Their army was hopeless before the crisis also. They are in a tough spot and I'd give them a passing grade for not giving into provocations and managing to unite the 'world' against Russian aggression. Public opinion is behind them due to their handling of the situation.
Latest from the Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine - based on information received up until 25 April 2014, 19:00 (Kyiv time) This update is provided for the media and the public.
Western and Central Ukraine, including Kyiv, as well the southern part of the country, remained calm. The situation continued to be tense in Luhansk region and particularly tense in Donetsk region. The Special Monitoring Mission got confirmation that the military observers carrying out an inspection under the OSCE Vienna Document had been taken captive by forces of the self-proclaimed mayor of Sloviansk.
Police presence in Kharkiv was notably reduced as compared to previous days. The Regional Administration building was guarded by about ten police officers in riot gear. The team went to Izium, close to the administrative border between the Kharkiv and Donetsk regions. The head of the Regional Administration in the city complained about the increase of police and military forces in the area. On the way back to Kharkiv the team saw seven additional military vehicles with armed personnel and communication equipment heading to Izium.
In Luhansk, the team observed reinforcement with barbed wire of the barricade in front of the occupied state security service (SBU) building, despite alleged ongoing negotiations reported in the media to vacate the building. The monitors were approached by one of the occupiers, who invited them to witness the release of a young supporter of a unitary Ukraine. The young man had a bruise under his left eye and a bloody nose. He was forced to read a statement to the media, and allowed afterwards to leave the SBU building area with his mother.
In addition, the team patrolled the vicinity of the Ukrainian-Russian border in the southeast part of the Luhansk region in the morning. Very good visibility and open terrain in various places made it possible to see a wide area. No military activity was observed during the patrolling. Border crossing between Ukraine and Russia appeared to be routine.
The overall situation within the Donetsk region remained tense, with many administrative buildings continuing to be occupied by opponents of the government and many roadblocks manned by unarmed or armed supporters of the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic”. Barricades remained both around the Donetsk City Administration and Donetsk Regional Administration buildings. There was no indication that any of the floors of the latter had been returned. During the afternoon the team observed enhanced suspicion and alert on the part of Ukrainian police, especially at check points in the immediate aftermath of the abduction of members of the unarmed OSCE military verification mission in Sloviansk. The City Administration Building in Mariupol (113 km south of Donetsk) remained occupied.
In Sloviansk, the barricades on the outskirt of the city were manned with less people than in previous days and access to the city was uninterrupted. The team heard reports that no administrative services were being provided by the local administration.
The general situation remained largely unchanged in Dnepropetrovsk, Kherson, Mykolaiv, and the surrounding areas and was assessed as calm. The Kherson team went to Mykolaiv to discuss with the local rabbi the situation after the firebombing incident against the local synagogue on 19 April 2014. The rabbi expressed his view that a thorough police investigation had not been carried out. According to the rabbi, another incident had occurred– hate messages were painted on a Shoah memorial with paint spray on 24 April in the outskirts of Mykolaiv.
The situation in the Odessa region was marked by an explosion on the night of 24 to 25 April at the roadside checkpoint named “the 7th Kilometer”. Six Self-Defence volunteers and one Ukrainian policeman were injured. At the reporting time the police investigation of the incident was still ongoing.
The situation remained calm in Chernivtsi, Ivano-Frankivsk and Lviv region. However, the appointment of the new head of local administration in Kolomyia (60 km north of Ivano-Frankivsk) provoked protests by the Right Sector and Self-Defence, with 100 protestors blocking the local administration building. The protestors, which were unarmed and mostly dressed in camouflage with Right Sector flags, prevented some local officials from entering their workplaces. In Lviv, local authorities increased police presence and check points in and around the city as well as in the region in anticipation of May holiday. Local government authorities issued statements urging people not to join mass protests in order not to provide with arguments to opponents of unitary Ukrainian state. The representatives of the Right Sector in Lviv also called for calm.
The capital city was calm. The Kyiv Maidan was cleaner than the previous day. The team observed the ongoing refurbishment of the Kyiv City Administration’s building. The team made demarches in order to visit Pavlo Hubariev (in Russian: Pavel Gubariev), a self-proclaimed governor of Donetsk region, detained since 6 March. Source.
You are reading it wrong. The special monitoring mission in Sloviansk from OSCE has gotten "official" confirmation about the other mission being held hostage by the brutal and paranoid soap maker.
The situation in Donetsk in general is uncomfortable.
Kharkiv situation seems uncomfortable. Politically motivated violence and forcing someone to give a statement is very bad less than a month before an election, but at least it is only a single event they have registered.
The rest of the reports seem relatively minor. Not that much dirt going on in the other places from report to report, which is good.
The crucial distinction seems to be between an OSCE special monitoring mission and an OSCE military observer mission. But despite having different goals, both are international OSCE missions. It honestly doesn't seem to matter much, they are to be protected by all parties in any conflict, and the separatists are in violation of this principle. Even Russia realizes that this is crossing the line, as, at least rhetoric wise, Russia is working to get the separatists to release them. It's a good red herring for them, though, with people talking about this kidnapping rather than the situation as a whole. They only need to stall for another month, half a month until the next bogus election.
On April 27 2014 15:36 Ghanburighan wrote: The crucial distinction seems to be between an OSCE special monitoring mission and an OSCE military observer mission. But despite having different goals, both are international OSCE missions. It honestly doesn't seem to matter much, they are to be protected by all parties in any conflict, and the separatists are in violation of this principle. Even Russia realizes that this is crossing the line, as, at least rhetoric wise, Russia is working to get the separatists to release them. It's a good red herring for them, though, with people talking about this kidnapping rather than the situation as a whole. They only need to stall for another month, half a month until the next bogus election.
Four tweets by OSCE (https://twitter.com/OSCE) (I think you posted these at some point Ghan ) : 4/4 Military verification team sent following invitation from Ukraine under terms of Vienna Document 2011 3/4 Military verification team - led by Germans – and composed of 8 members – 4 Germans, 1 Czech, 1 Danish, 1 Polish, 1 Swedish 2/4 All members of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission and OSCE/ODIHR election observers are safe and accounted for 1/4 Comms with military observers in Donetsk region lost.Team not OSCE monitors but sent by States under Vienna Doc on military transparency
So, I think technically the OSCE monitoring team is actual field staff while the military verification team are nationals of member states that aren't under OSCE direct-control but are working together with OSCE staff. From what I heard this is common and OSCE often times works this way.
But yeah, it doesn't really matter. They are taking hostages of non-participating parties in the conflict. Pretty fucked up but none of us should be surprised
On April 15, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights issued a report on Crimea documenting what the Russian government has tried to hide by denying international monitors access to Crimea: the imprisonment, torture, and killings of Crimean citizens who opposed Russia’s illegal annexation of the peninsula prior to the March referendum.
The world is already familiar with some of the more horrific reports that have emerged in recent weeks, such as the discovery on March 18 of the body of Crimean Tatar activist Reshat Ametov two weeks after he had been abducted, bearing clear evidence of abuse. On March 25, Human Rights Watch reported that two Euromaidan activists in Crimea had been kidnapped and brutally tortured by Russian and local forces in secret facilities for 11 days.
After spinning a fictitious tale of protecting members of the ethnic Russian minority in Ukraine, the Russian government and its proxies are subjecting members of ethnic minorities in Crimea to the very abuses they pretend to oppose. On March 31, pro-Russian thugs beat a 14-year-old Tatar boy for speaking Tatar in public. On March 18, Crimean Deputy Prime Minister Temirgaliyev announced that Tatars must give up their land to be used for other purposes. On March 15 and 16, pro-Russia thugs kidnapped Ukrainian Greek Catholic priests, interrogated them, and had local “authorities” charge some of them with “extremism.” Following anonymous death threats, the Chief Reform Rabbi of Crimea has fled. All told, international organizations report that around 5,000 people, including minority Christians, Jews, and at least 3,000 Tatars, have fled Crimea and sought refuge elsewhere in Ukraine.
If the Russian government begins to impose through its occupation and purported annexation of Crimea the repressive laws it is increasingly implementing in Russia, Crimean residents may experience surprising restrictions on the rights they once freely exercised. Among these are:
- A Loss of Autonomy. Even as President Putin demands decentralization in Ukraine, he is abolishing it in Russia. A new bill in the Duma could cancel direct mayoral elections in Russia, stripping citizens of their ability to elect their local leaders.
- Censorship and Propaganda. As has already been done within Russia, Russian authorities have tried to limit Crimean residents’ access to TV channels that are not Kremlin-controlled. From Russia’s internet space, Crimean residents could find themselves unable to access certain independent news sites.
- Criminalization of Dissent. The Russian government could attempt to subject Crimean residents who wish to express dissent to its arsenal of laws unduly restricting freedom of expression, including Russian-style prosecutions of journalists and activists for “extremism” and “hooliganism” simply for expressing independent views.
- "Foreign Agent" Hysteria. Following the xenophobic trend encouraged by authorities in Russia, lists of local “traitors” and “foreign agents” have already begun to appear in Crimea. Crimean non-governmental organizations (NGOs), like Russian ones, may find themselves subjected to a range of new burdensome regulations, including the notorious Russian “Foreign -
- Agents” NGO law. Many Crimean human rights defenders have already fled Crimea, and many of those who stayed are considering a principled stance to avoid taking on the false and stigmatizing label of “foreign agent.”
- Limits on Freedom of Assembly. Recent Russian laws instituting harsh fines (over $9000) for participating in peaceful unsanctioned protest, if imposed in Crimea, may have a chilling effect on public demonstrations. We’ve already seen evidence in Sevastopol – on April 15, the city banned an LGBT pride parade, citing Russia’s ban on LGBT “propaganda.” Source.
@mc yes, security is the responsibility of the hosting nation. kiev does not look like a victim, they look very incompetent. public opinion is not behind kiev in the south or the east of ukraine
On April 27 2014 21:29 nunez wrote: @mc yes, security is the responsibility of the hosting nation. kiev does not look like a victim, they look very incompetent. public opinion is not behind kiev in the south or the east of ukraine
Public opinion is neither behind the rebels if we are to believe the journalists... If you are choosing to put all the blame on Kyiv you are also recognising the legitimacy of the soap manufacturer as a leader of his kingdom and his actions as tolerable...
Your one-sided critique is not helping anyone. Especially not the ukrainian people who would prefer a fair election over civil war and the inherent legitimacy-problems of people with guns actively pushing a political agenda.
On April 27 2014 21:29 nunez wrote: @mc yes, security is the responsibility of the hosting nation. kiev does not look like a victim, they look very incompetent. public opinion is not behind kiev in the south or the east of ukraine
Western countries view things differently. They clearly see Kiev as a victim of Russian aggression. This is regardless of our opinions. Public support for the government in Kiev comes from either the West or the South/East of Ukraine. Hard to expect a united Ukraine at this point. Maybe after elections in May they will view the government as more legitimate. And again, all you do is bark without posing any positive steps or solutions. Woof woof.
And, for once, a russian media bring most of the relevant facts in the situation: source
Credit where credit is due, it is nice to see that something like that can happen! Be aware that the soap maker is the one credited for being their "civil" leader and Strelko as their military leader.
Regarding the OSCE mission:
"Their team included intelligence agents with cryptographed messages, note-pads with secret notes. A Bulgarian officer had a note-pad with notes in Russian, which confirm his secret activity," he stressed. According to the OSCE Secretariat, the team comprises four German experts and one military observer from Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden each.
That is some serious conspiracy going on. OSCE lying about the nationality of the observers and not only did these spies carry secret maps and munitions, they are also writing secret notes that "confirms" their secret spying activity. Not keeping that a secret for people is a good thing, but the words might carry a bit more weight if the notes are made public so people can see how terrible the trojan OSCE-mission is.
Edit: Btw. Having seen that some media has brought the staged hostage-press conference and having heard some of what they said, I must also critique the extremely bad ethical judgement the news-sources are showing. It is clear that they are participating against their will and some of what they say, sound scripted. BBC and TIME are among the culprits...
And, for once, a russian media bring most of the relevant facts in the situation: source
Credit where credit is due, it is nice to see that something like that can happen! Be aware that the soap maker is the one credited for being their "civil" leader and Strelko as their military leader.
"Their team included intelligence agents with cryptographed messages, note-pads with secret notes. A Bulgarian officer had a note-pad with notes in Russian, which confirm his secret activity," he stressed. According to the OSCE Secretariat, the team comprises four German experts and one military observer from Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden each.
That is some serious conspiracy going on. OSCE lying about the nationality of the observers and not only did these spies carry secret maps and munitions, they are also writing secret notes that "confirms" their secret spying activity. Not keeping that a secret for people is a good thing, but the words might carry a bit more weight if the notes are made public so people can see how terrible the trojan OSCE-mission is.
Edit: Btw. Having seen that some media has brought the staged hostage-press conference and having heard some of what they said, I must also critique the extremely bad ethical judgement the news-sources are showing. It is clear that they are participating against their will and some of what they say, sound scripted. BBC and TIME are among the culprits...
So first off that article is from VoiceOfRussia. A quick look at it's headlines "US Military Deployments could start New Cold War", "Crimea: No Russian Invasion, happy people", "Hollywood producer claims Boston bombing was a false flag attack"....
Second off it's quoting "Self-defence forces’ representative Yevgeny Gorbik". He is the one who says:
"Their team included intelligence agents with cryptographed messages, note-pads with secret notes. A Bulgarian officer had a note-pad with notes in Russian, which confirm his secret activity,"
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.
I find it absurd anyone can find an interview with people who are bound, have been beaten, and who are bleeding through their blindfolds as legitimate. They are clearly under duress.
And, for once, a russian media bring most of the relevant facts in the situation: source
Credit where credit is due, it is nice to see that something like that can happen! Be aware that the soap maker is the one credited for being their "civil" leader and Strelko as their military leader.
Regarding the OSCE mission:
"Their team included intelligence agents with cryptographed messages, note-pads with secret notes. A Bulgarian officer had a note-pad with notes in Russian, which confirm his secret activity," he stressed. According to the OSCE Secretariat, the team comprises four German experts and one military observer from Denmark, Poland, the Czech Republic and Sweden each.
That is some serious conspiracy going on. OSCE lying about the nationality of the observers and not only did these spies carry secret maps and munitions, they are also writing secret notes that "confirms" their secret spying activity. Not keeping that a secret for people is a good thing, but the words might carry a bit more weight if the notes are made public so people can see how terrible the trojan OSCE-mission is.
Edit: Btw. Having seen that some media has brought the staged hostage-press conference and having heard some of what they said, I must also critique the extremely bad ethical judgement the news-sources are showing. It is clear that they are participating against their will and some of what they say, sound scripted. BBC and TIME are among the culprits...
So first off that article is from VoiceOfRussia. A quick look at it's headlines "US Military Deployments could start New Cold War", "Crimea: No Russian Invasion, happy people", "Hollywood producer claims Boston bombing was a false flag attack"....
Second off it's quoting "Self-defence forces’ representative Yevgeny Gorbik". He is the one who says:
"Their team included intelligence agents with cryptographed messages, note-pads with secret notes. A Bulgarian officer had a note-pad with notes in Russian, which confirm his secret activity,"
I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.
Exactly. VoR is ripe with misinformation and conspiracies, just like Rossiya Segodnya (RT) and ITAR-TASS. In this case I trust the quotes and that the rebels are unnecessarily paranoid.
The last one seems logical: The Slovyansk "self-defence forces" are claiming that NATO is spying and therefore it might weaken the righteousness of their actions if they were shown to be wrong. Russia has still to say anything negative about these people and creating doubt about what side the readers should be on would be anti-russian propaganda!
On April 27 2014 23:26 Mc wrote: I'd doubt a lot of what is said on a Russian news website that seems to be very anti-West and that is quoting a separatist.
And I doubt a lot of what is said in western mass-media that seems to be very anti-Russian and that is quoting illegitimate Kiev government. So how to define who of us is right?
EPT
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