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On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:On January 28 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 22:54 Velr wrote:
A Country blaming mainly outside influence/the EU/Russia/USA or even better "JOURNALISM" for its problems is like some redneck blaming immigrants for all his problems.
Its just dumb. You are missing the point. If you think no outside power is 'training' and funding the protests you are delusional. Funny how whichever protests McCain shows up at end up destroying their own country, I'm sure they destroyed themselves all on their own. Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors.
You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it.
My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests?
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On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:On January 28 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:
[quote]
You are missing the point. If you think no outside power is 'training' and funding the protests you are delusional. Funny how whichever protests McCain shows up at end up destroying their own country, I'm sure they destroyed themselves all on their own. Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests?
But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine.
What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started.
edit: To answer personally i guess the forceful annexation of your country by a hostile power, but even in that case you would just be destroying your own infrastructure. Also the government handing over parts of territory to neighboring countries, perhaps a military coup would warrant becoming an animal and destroying your own country. idk
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On January 29 2014 03:37 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:
[quote]
Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests? But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine. What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started.
Uh oh. Then I learned that the laws infringing civil-liberies were the direct followup of 6 dead people. Somehow your timelines got mixed up.
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On January 29 2014 03:37 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:
[quote]
Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests? But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine. What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started. edit: To answer personally i guess the forceful annexation of your country by a hostile power, but even in that case you would just be destroying your own infrastructure. Also the government handing over parts of territory to neighboring countries, perhaps a military coup would warrant becoming an animal and destroying your own country. idk
The only organized thuggery is by the police and government, the other kind is rather unorganized due to it not having any formal hierarchical structures or the ability to police itself effectively. This is the reason the behavior of the police is held to a higher standard, they are professionals that are supposed to be all about order.
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On January 29 2014 04:40 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:37 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:
[quote]
Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered:
- The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany
- the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland
- American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy
- the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle
- High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton
- the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili
- the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans
- Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz
- the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius
- former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski
- Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina
And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine.
Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests? But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine. What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started. edit: To answer personally i guess the forceful annexation of your country by a hostile power, but even in that case you would just be destroying your own infrastructure. Also the government handing over parts of territory to neighboring countries, perhaps a military coup would warrant becoming an animal and destroying your own country. idk The only organized thuggery is by the police and government, the other kind is rather unorganized due to it not having any formal hierarchical structures or the ability to police itself effectively. This is the reason the behavior of the police is held to a higher standard, they are professionals that are supposed to be all about order.
Isolated incidents of the overuse of force do not indicate it is state policy. There is no evidence.
In the US during the Occupy movement horrific acts of violence were perpetrated by the police. The number of arrested people, broken arms, legs and heads vastly outnumber whatever is happening to protesters in Ukraine and I don't remember western media asking for sanctions against the Obama administration. Getting your name put on a list and not being able to vote because you took part in anti-gov protests is somehow not an infringement of civil liberties.
How can the same administration that finds this:
+ Show Spoiler +
perfectly acceptable say anything about how the Ukrainian government is dealing with these thugs?
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On January 28 2014 21:29 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2014 20:39 Crushinator wrote:On January 28 2014 19:55 lolfail9001 wrote:On January 28 2014 04:47 Saryph wrote:
In what world do some of the posters in this thread live in to think that it's alright for police officers to throw Molotov cocktails/gasoline bombs at protesters, or to strip people naked, beat them, slash them with knives, or even kill them? To go into hospitals and beat patients for information?
Hell, I didn't even know police officers carried around knives for slashing/stabbing people. Not certain what are you talking about. Also, since it is alright for journalists to exist as they are now, it is alright for police officers to do whatever the hell they are doing. Also, where have you gotten that police officers are the ones throwing gasoline bombs at protesters and not the other way around? Yes the state of modern journalism is perfect justification for police brutality, obviously. Yeah, because modern journalism creates police brutality, just as modern journalism on the other side can create protester's brutality. It is question of source. While my sources claim about peaceful throwing of gasoline bombs from protester's side, others can claim about the same from another.
A Russian talking about the grievous state of journalism in Ukraine. Priceless.
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In the US during the Occupy movement horrific acts of violence were perpetrated by the police.
lol no there weren't. Only in Oakland was there significant violence and it was Occupy protesters that started it and still the police weren't as violent as they were in Kiev.
The number of arrested people, broken arms, legs and heads vastly outnumber whatever is happening to protesters in Ukraine
lololol nope, sorry. 0 dead from police action in Occupy violence (about a half-dozen dead from drug ODs, though)... at least 3 people dead in Ukraine protests. Police in the US did not use water cannons at all and did not indiscriminately fire rubber bullets into crowds of Occupy protesters. They also didn't just wade into crowds and beat people.
Getting your name put on a list and not being able to vote because you took part in anti-gov protests is somehow not an infringement of civil liberties.
lololol name me some Occupy protesters that lost their right to vote because they were protesting. You need to stop watching Russia Today, you're just another ignorant foreigner who believes whatever stupid anti-American nonsense he's being spoonfed by propaganda "media."
How can the same administration that finds this:
+ Show Spoiler +
perfectly acceptable say anything about how the Ukrainian government is dealing with these thugs?
lolol spraying pepper spray at non-compliant people is the first thing US police are trained to do because... ding ding ding, it's less violent than tasering them, beating them with nighsticks, shooting them with rubber bullets, or shooting them with real bullets! And last I checked, the cops pepper-sprayed those people at UC Berkeley only after they surrounded the police and were told repeatedly that if they didn't let the cops out they would get pepper-sprayed. Both the cops who did that were suspended, as was their superior, the head of police apologized to the protesters, the school condemned the cops and apologized, and the school offered each student up to $250,000, again, each, to pay for their legal fees, and $30,000 each for their pain and suffering, and set up a fund that had enough money in it to pay up to $20,000 more to each student making a claim. US Congressmen condemned the police's actions, it was a huge media story for over a week.
Occupy camps illegally set up on public land were allowed to exist for months before there was police action against them. How long did the Kiev protests go on before the police tried to destroy them? Two days?
Clearly, these are the actions of a violent and repressive society that has no business saying Yanukovich you're bad for doing that.
People like you zeo are why Americans don't listen to foreigners, we know too many of you are just interested in expressing your ignorant hate for us by lying and saying incredibly silly things that anyone with a brain knows aren't true.
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On January 29 2014 05:43 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 04:40 Crushinator wrote:On January 29 2014 03:37 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests? But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine. What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started. edit: To answer personally i guess the forceful annexation of your country by a hostile power, but even in that case you would just be destroying your own infrastructure. Also the government handing over parts of territory to neighboring countries, perhaps a military coup would warrant becoming an animal and destroying your own country. idk The only organized thuggery is by the police and government, the other kind is rather unorganized due to it not having any formal hierarchical structures or the ability to police itself effectively. This is the reason the behavior of the police is held to a higher standard, they are professionals that are supposed to be all about order. Isolated incidents of the overuse of force do not indicate it is state policy. There is no evidence. In the US during the Occupy movement horrific acts of violence were perpetrated by the police. The number of arrested people, broken arms, legs and heads vastly outnumber whatever is happening to protesters in Ukraine and I don't remember western media asking for sanctions against the Obama administration. Getting your name put on a list and not being able to vote because you took part in anti-gov protests is somehow not an infringement of civil liberties. How can the same administration that finds this: + Show Spoiler +perfectly acceptable say anything about how the Ukrainian government is dealing with these thugs?
Where did you get your information from?
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On January 29 2014 06:10 SilentchiLL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 05:43 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 04:40 Crushinator wrote:On January 29 2014 03:37 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:21 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. You're dodging the question. Are you saying that the protests are not warranted because the infringement of civil liberties is not severe enough? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, just own it. My follow-up question is what sort of infringement of civil liberties would warrant such protests? But I answered your question... There is a difference between protests and the organized thuggery going on now in Ukraine. What infringement of civil-liberties would warrant someone becoming a thug, destroying their own economy and the systematic destruction of public and private property? Certainly nothing going on in Ukraine before these protests started. edit: To answer personally i guess the forceful annexation of your country by a hostile power, but even in that case you would just be destroying your own infrastructure. Also the government handing over parts of territory to neighboring countries, perhaps a military coup would warrant becoming an animal and destroying your own country. idk The only organized thuggery is by the police and government, the other kind is rather unorganized due to it not having any formal hierarchical structures or the ability to police itself effectively. This is the reason the behavior of the police is held to a higher standard, they are professionals that are supposed to be all about order. Isolated incidents of the overuse of force do not indicate it is state policy. There is no evidence. In the US during the Occupy movement horrific acts of violence were perpetrated by the police. The number of arrested people, broken arms, legs and heads vastly outnumber whatever is happening to protesters in Ukraine and I don't remember western media asking for sanctions against the Obama administration. Getting your name put on a list and not being able to vote because you took part in anti-gov protests is somehow not an infringement of civil liberties. How can the same administration that finds this: + Show Spoiler +perfectly acceptable say anything about how the Ukrainian government is dealing with these thugs? Where did you get your information from?
Any random anti-EU propaganda site?
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On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?.
You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money.
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On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:On January 28 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 22:54 Velr wrote:
A Country blaming mainly outside influence/the EU/Russia/USA or even better "JOURNALISM" for its problems is like some redneck blaming immigrants for all his problems.
Its just dumb. You are missing the point. If you think no outside power is 'training' and funding the protests you are delusional. Funny how whichever protests McCain shows up at end up destroying their own country, I'm sure they destroyed themselves all on their own. Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No.
So your opinion that only 50 000 people support EuroMaidan is based on what? Any social poll you've read about?
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On January 29 2014 03:05 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 03:00 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:58 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 02:50 xDaunt wrote:On January 29 2014 02:45 zeo wrote:On January 29 2014 01:59 KwarK wrote:On January 29 2014 01:57 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 23:23 radiatoren wrote:On January 28 2014 23:04 zeo wrote:On January 28 2014 22:54 Velr wrote:
A Country blaming mainly outside influence/the EU/Russia/USA or even better "JOURNALISM" for its problems is like some redneck blaming immigrants for all his problems.
Its just dumb. You are missing the point. If you think no outside power is 'training' and funding the protests you are delusional. Funny how whichever protests McCain shows up at end up destroying their own country, I'm sure they destroyed themselves all on their own. Do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it... Once upon a time in the Maidan square of Kiev were gathered: - The ambassadors of the United States of America, France, Spain, Denmark, Germany - the Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs at the United States Department of State - Victoria Nuland - American senators - John McCain and Chis Murphy - the Foreign Minister of Germany - Guido Westerwelle - High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy for the European Union - Catherine Ashton - the former president of Georgia - Mikheil Saakashvili - the Foreign Minister of the Netherlands - Frans Timmermans - Member of the European parliament - Jacek Protasiewicz - the Foreign Minister of Lithuania - Linas Antanas Linkevičius - former Prime Minister of Poland - Jaroslav Kačinjski - Senator of the Cech Republic - Jaromír Štětina And stated to Russia that they should not interfere in the internal affairs of Ukraine. Of course, what was I saying. No way did NATO members countries influence anything that has happened in the Ukraine over the past month because evul dick-tator right? Lets all move to the paradises that have propped up in the middle east due to the same kind of meddling Yes but do you have any actual evidence? This claim is conspiratorial at best without it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actionshttp://www.policymic.com/articles/77309/what-the-media-doesn-t-get-about-the-protests-in-ukrainehttp://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO411D.htmlIndeed anything less than leaked CIA documents won't convince people so from now on I will be asking for actual evidence for everything. Prove that USAID and The National Endowment for Democracy are not involved in the protests. Well let's just cut to the chase, and I apologize if I missed it: do you support the reforms being implemented by the Ukrainian regime? If so, why? I've stated before, no, of course the current government could do a better job. Does this give 50,000 people the right to hold 45 million of their countrymen hostage? Does it give them the right to destroy their own country? No. Okay, so does that mean that the citizens should not protest the abuse of civil liberties? Are these types of protests never warranted? The protests were perfectly normal before McCain came to Kiev. The people on the streets now have long since stopped being protestors. The protests had been perfectly normal before the Parliament adopted "dictatorship laws".
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The argument apologists of abusive authoritarianism will always say that the protesters do not represent the mainstream. The fact that a very large chunk of government supporters are paid is quite worrying if you are a government supporter.
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On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?. You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money.
"Let me bring some petrol for guys so they can make molotov's, that's surely will help defending agains those evil policemen and get our rights back , our economy growing and hang the infidel to our cause". What a sick fanatism. I've recently read they made some kind of potato gun there as well do defend , i mean wtf this ain't a movie, and this ain't a start or the path to better quality of life for sure, because you already destroying and spreading fear. The afterwave i imagine is gonna be some kind of ultra right ukrainian propaganda during a year or so, or any other bullshit. THey might as well get religion involved and proclaim themselves catholic, just to be closer to the west. I can't believe most people are so blind to this tricks to please the crowd and get "the change" going, for the good or for the bad, they don't know that for sure.
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On January 29 2014 06:44 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?. You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money. "Let me bring some petrol for guys so they can make molotov's, that's surely will help defending agains those evil policemen and get our rights back , our economy growing and hang the infidel to our cause". What a sick fanatism. I've recently read they made some kind of potato gun there as well do defend , i mean wtf this ain't a movie, and this ain't a start or the path to better quality of life for sure, because you already destroying and spreading fear. The afterwave i imagine is gonna be some kind of ultra right ukrainian propaganda during a year or so, or any other bullshit. THey might as well get religion involved and proclaim themselves catholic, just to be closer to the west. I can't believe most people are so blind to this tricks to please the crowd and get "the change" going, for the good or for the bad, they don't know that for sure.
Well, the "dictatorship laws" have just been revoked. I guess throwing molotovs did make an impact after all.
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To summarize the events of today.
1) Prime Minister Azarov resigned. A few days ago he claimed he would only resign if the Parliament voted for it.
2) All important "Dictatorship laws" have been revoked.
3) Talks to pardon all Euromaidan activists have failed. Pro-presidential party wants to set up a time limit for the administrative buildings to be freed. Oppositional parties demand unconditional pardon.
4) It is totally up in the air who will be the next Prime Minister. Depends on the negotiations process.
5) People are not going to leave from Euromaidan. Most people would be only satisfied by a total decentralization of power from the hands of Yanukovich, including his resignation or reelection. But the protests are expected to subside until Yanukovich does something dumb again.
The most important thing is that Yanukovich showed weakness. It would be much harder now to scare people into submission. Overall today was a big victory for the Euromaidan forces.
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On January 29 2014 06:51 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:44 Greem wrote:On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?. You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money. "Let me bring some petrol for guys so they can make molotov's, that's surely will help defending agains those evil policemen and get our rights back , our economy growing and hang the infidel to our cause". What a sick fanatism. I've recently read they made some kind of potato gun there as well do defend , i mean wtf this ain't a movie, and this ain't a start or the path to better quality of life for sure, because you already destroying and spreading fear. The afterwave i imagine is gonna be some kind of ultra right ukrainian propaganda during a year or so, or any other bullshit. THey might as well get religion involved and proclaim themselves catholic, just to be closer to the west. I can't believe most people are so blind to this tricks to please the crowd and get "the change" going, for the good or for the bad, they don't know that for sure. Well, the "dictatorship laws" have just been revoked. I guess throwing molotovs did make an impact after all.
The single thing that acomplished is some news for the media. A peacefull crowd in total silence would've done the same.But then again, the history will repeat itself , like the old "orange revolution" thing, because there is no one competent around in that crowd to make a difference, since they methods speak for them more than the words they use.A clever leader or group of people whos desire truly lies in bringing better standarts of life wouldn't get close to those public crowd methods and violence of any kind , destruction or fear.
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On January 29 2014 07:10 Cheerio wrote:
To summarize the events of today.
1) Prime Minister Azarov resigned. A few days ago he claimed he would only resign if the Parliament voted for it.
2) All important "Dictatorship laws" have been revoked.
3) Talks to pardon all Euromaidan activists have failed. Pro-presidential party wants to set up a time limit for the administrative buildings to be freed. Oppositional parties demand unconditional pardon.
4) It is totally up in the air who will be the next Prime Minister. Depends on the negotiations process.
5) People are not going to leave from Euromaidan. Most people would be only satisfied by a total decentralization of power from the hands of Yanukovich, including his resignation or reelection. But the protests are expected to subside until Yanukovich does something dumb again.
The most important thing is that Yanukovich showed weakness. It will be much harder now to scare people into submission.
6) Yanukovich offered to change the offices of the president and prime minister so the prime minister has significantly more power at the expense of the presidency. Part of the deal would be that Yanukovich is immune from future prosecution.
Yanukovich is starting to run scared. Putin finally overreached, all those victories of his during the last 10 years finally made him a little overconfident and he made a big mistake.
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On January 29 2014 07:15 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:51 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 06:44 Greem wrote:On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?. You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money. "Let me bring some petrol for guys so they can make molotov's, that's surely will help defending agains those evil policemen and get our rights back , our economy growing and hang the infidel to our cause". What a sick fanatism. I've recently read they made some kind of potato gun there as well do defend , i mean wtf this ain't a movie, and this ain't a start or the path to better quality of life for sure, because you already destroying and spreading fear. The afterwave i imagine is gonna be some kind of ultra right ukrainian propaganda during a year or so, or any other bullshit. THey might as well get religion involved and proclaim themselves catholic, just to be closer to the west. I can't believe most people are so blind to this tricks to please the crowd and get "the change" going, for the good or for the bad, they don't know that for sure. Well, the "dictatorship laws" have just been revoked. I guess throwing molotovs did make an impact after all. The single thing that acomplished is some news for the media. A peacefull crowd in total silence would've done the same.But then again, the history will repeat itself , like the old "orange revolution" thing, because there is no one competent around in that crowd to make a difference, since they methods speak for them more than the words they use.A clever leader or group of people whos desire truly lies in bringing better standarts of life wouldn't get close to those public crowd methods and violence of any kind , destruction or fear.
The answer to a peaceful protest in total silence was to declare said protest illegal.
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On January 29 2014 07:15 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2014 06:51 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 06:44 Greem wrote:On January 29 2014 06:21 Cheerio wrote:On January 29 2014 02:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 29 2014 02:35 Gorsameth wrote:
How is the EU even supporting the protests?
Are they airdropping food for the protesters?
Are they teaches them how to make a molotov?
This isn't government's arming rebels. Its a civil protest ffs. all you need is money, srsly. (and some agitators) do you realy think the protesters are paying for the molotovs from their salaries?. You dont pay for molotovs, you make them up yourself. And if you want to know whether people are donating on a large scale for the needs of EuroMaidan than yes they do, I'm one of them. I'm not bringing petrol in canisters for molotovs but there were many who did, many of those for their own money. "Let me bring some petrol for guys so they can make molotov's, that's surely will help defending agains those evil policemen and get our rights back , our economy growing and hang the infidel to our cause". What a sick fanatism. I've recently read they made some kind of potato gun there as well do defend , i mean wtf this ain't a movie, and this ain't a start or the path to better quality of life for sure, because you already destroying and spreading fear. The afterwave i imagine is gonna be some kind of ultra right ukrainian propaganda during a year or so, or any other bullshit. THey might as well get religion involved and proclaim themselves catholic, just to be closer to the west. I can't believe most people are so blind to this tricks to please the crowd and get "the change" going, for the good or for the bad, they don't know that for sure. Well, the "dictatorship laws" have just been revoked. I guess throwing molotovs did make an impact after all. The single thing that acomplished is some news for the media. A peacefull crowd in total silence would've done the same.But then again, the history will repeat itself , like the old "orange revolution" thing, because there is no one competent around in that crowd to make a difference, since they methods speak for them more than the words they use.A clever leader or group of people whos desire truly lies in bringing better standarts of life wouldn't get close to those public crowd methods and violence of any kind , destruction or fear.
in your part of the world non-violent protesters' demands either get ignored or the protesters assaulted by the police en masse anyway (usually both) and insulted and lied about by the government and its media puppets, kind of hard to remain peaceful in that situation.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/forum.krstarica.com/img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/11/20/x193042.jpg.pagespeed.ic.m0I7wEy2fL.jpg)
