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The natural argument is, "well Russia is a nuclear state" or "well Russia has a stronger military than Germany or Iraq did" ect ect ect... as to why we are going to do something that didn't work in the past. -Archangel- made this very argument. This arguments are based in fear. And we know what FDR said about fear.
And frankly, these argument have absolutely nothing to do with anything. The bottom line is, people are going to lose their freedom. You just don't give up because the work will be hard, or people could die when it comes to guaranteeing human rights. Because today it is Crimea. But tomorrow it could be you, you losing your freedom. And you'd want someone to stand with you right? Right?
And that's not fearmongering? First they came for Crimea and no one listened... and if no one stops them... THEY'LL GET YOU NEXT !!1
People lose freedoms and human rights all the time and it doesn't even make the news here. What makes Crimea worth risking global thermonuclear war over? "Saving" a small bit of land that arguably doesn't want to be saved at the cost of who knows how many lives?
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On March 12 2014 00:36 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 22:00 Saryph wrote:
A couple pages back there was a link to the choices of the referendum next week. One was to join Russia, the other was to roll back the laws/constitution to an older version that would allow them to join Russia quickly. Is it really true that there is no option to maintain the status quo? Do people like zeo see this as legitimate if it is true? WTF how is this not reported more? First time I read about this in this thread here.
Yeah, it's crazy, but if you remember that the new Prime Minister said that the referendum is only to let the people show their approval of his choice to join Russia, not to actually decide anything...
But he says they're already a part of Russia and the native military forces (Russian speaking native Ukrainians) are hostile invaders.
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@BronzeKnee: And I am sure you are already packing your stuff to head out there and enlist in Ukraine military to help fight Putin and his army, aren't you?
Me, I like living. And I like to make choices that result in less total casulties.
If I could control anything, I would gather all these warmongering world leaders and let them fight it out in arena using only combat knifes. Last man standing rules. In the meantime, I would disband all military. Fuck OLD MEN sending young men to die all over the world, no matter from what part of the world they come...
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 12 2014 01:06 -Archangel- wrote:
@BronzeKnee: And I am sure you are already packing your stuff to head out there and enlist in Ukraine military to help fight Putin and his army, aren't you?
Me, I like living. And I like to make choices that result in less total casulties.
If I could control anything, I would gather all these warmongering world leaders and let them fight it out in arena using only combat knifes. Last man standing rules. In the meantime, I would disband all military. Fuck OLD MEN sending young men to die all over the world, no matter from what part of the world they come...
+++++
I hope, some day peace in world will occure.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power.
Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum?
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On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum?
We will care once No is an actual option on the vote.
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On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum?
Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.'
Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 01:18 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? We will care once No is an actual option on the vote.
It is. Or do you have proof that it is not?
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 01:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.' Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters.
You are lying. So in Europe and USA is OK to lie to prove its point? Or is it not? Maybe you are just ignorant? The second choise is to admit Crimea as part of Ukraine and return to constitution of 1992.
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Is anybody belives in fair referendum results here?
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On March 12 2014 01:25 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Is anybody believes in fair referendum results here?
Everyone believes in "fair", but tampering could be easily argued, in part, by Russia. Which is exactly what they are doing. Russia doesn't go though the perceived accepted channels partly because they never really got their way when they used such channels. Call it a western bias or just that the international community has a moral divide from kremlin thinking.
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Russian Federation221 Posts
On March 12 2014 01:25 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Is anybody belives in fair referendum results here?
I honestly belive that most part of population of Crimea wants to be part of Russia.
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On March 12 2014 01:23 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.' Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters. You are lying. So in Europe and USA is OK to lie to prove its point? Or is it not? Maybe you are just ignorant? The second choise is to admit Crimea as part of Ukraine and return to constitution of 1992.
And can you explain why that is the second option? Why is there no option "things stay like they are?" You might not be used to usual democratic procedures considering where you live, but that is how a referendum usually looks like. Also, a fair democratic referendum usually does NOT involve a lot of foreign guys with guns on the streets and in control of the information given to the population. This might seem really weird to you.
People would accept a referendum under the following circumstances:
a) options are "things stay like they are now" and "something else" not "join russia now" or "allow the parliament who wants to join russia and which is under control of russian soldiers to join russia in a few months"
b) There are no russian troops around, and there are some sort of non-biased observers making sure the vote is actually fair.
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On March 12 2014 01:19 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? We will care once No is an actual option on the vote. It is. Or do you have proof that it is not?
I don't know what it says, but the official Crimean ballot.
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On March 12 2014 01:31 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:25 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Is anybody belives in fair referendum results here? I honestly belive that most part of population of Crimea wants to be part of Russia.
Because the eternal god president putin told you so, right? If they truly wanted to be part of russia then why are they being threatened BY russians, why is russia not allowing anyone from outside of russia to come to crimea to report on the situation, not allowing observers, and why does the referendum not have a no option?
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On March 12 2014 01:33 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:23 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 01:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.' Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters. You are lying. So in Europe and USA is OK to lie to prove its point? Or is it not? Maybe you are just ignorant? The second choise is to admit Crimea as part of Ukraine and return to constitution of 1992. And can you explain why that is the second option? Why is there no option "things stay like they are?" You might not be used to usual democratic procedures considering where you live, but that is how a referendum usually looks like. Also, a fair democratic referendum usually does NOT involve a lot of foreign guys with guns on the streets and in control of the information given to the population. This might seem really weird to you. People would accept a referendum under the following circumstances: a) options are "things stay like they are now" and "something else" not "join russia now" or "allow the parliament who wants to join russia and which is under control of russian soldiers to join russia in a few months" b) There are no russian troops around, and there are some sort of non-biased observers making sure the vote is actually fair.
Not to mention the Russians have shut down all Ukrainian media in Crimea, and replaced it with state-run Russian media. And the reports of Russians marking and later burning down Tartar buildings, and the reports of Russian soldiers tearing up Ukrainian passports to prevent people from voting, or the fact that they printed 2.5 million ballots for a population of about half of that. Or that the vote to do this referendum was false, that parliament members who on the record show that they voted for it claim they weren't even in the building, that Russian troops in some cases were preventing them from getting into the building.
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On March 12 2014 01:19 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? We will care once No is an actual option on the vote. It is. Or do you have proof that it is not?
There are 2 options.
1 is to join russia.
2 is to return to a state where the Crimea government has the power to declare themselves a part of Russia.
Where is the "change nothing" option. aka the No.
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On March 12 2014 01:23 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:18 DeepElemBlues wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? Because people who aren't sheep or sheepherders rightly don't give a damn about a fake referendum where the two choices are 'yes, join Russia now,' and 'yes, join Russia later.' Maybe in Russia the definition of referendum is different from the definition everywhere else in the world that isn't run by fascist gangsters. You are lying. So in Europe and USA is OK to lie to prove its point? Or is it not? Maybe you are just ignorant? The second choise is to admit Crimea as part of Ukraine and return to constitution of 1992.
No, I'm not. The Crimean parliament has just declared Crimea an "Autonomous Republic." This parliament, which of course is an actual junta at the moment, has already "voted" its wish to have Crimea join the Russian Federation. Everyone not sucking off Vladimir's teat knows exactly what will happen if "join Russia now" doesn't "win." The Russian parliament is working on a bill to make it easier for places like Crimea to join the Russian Federation.
Again, everyone knows what will happen no matter the referendum outcome. Crimea's junta - the real, actual junta - will go ahead and join Crimea to Russia.
Now maybe in Russia this blatant bullshit gets swallowed down because you're ignorant or too scared of Putin, but in countries where you can say the government is full of crap without getting arrested or beaten up, it doesn't. So cry more about lying ignorant Westerners, everyone knows what it's all about.
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On March 12 2014 01:31 MikeMM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:25 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Is anybody belives in fair referendum results here? I honestly belive that most part of population of Crimea wants to be part of Russia.
U do honestly belive? So we are waiting for 146% of respondets answering YES! :O
Crimean institute of sociology reported that more than 70% of population want to join Russia
But...
Internet auditory of Crimea voted differently. The poll is around 13500 of ppl, so it is solid and it shows 39% wants to stay as autonomy part in Ukraine, 26% to join Russia, and 21% as a regular state in Ukraine.
Interesting thing to know, that the very first question is about, if ppl going to join the referendum, and the answers are:
45% yes
45% no
10% still not decided
this info makes me think, that 45% who won't join the referendum, their votes might be easily rigged
http://www.sobytiya.info/polls/ Poll source
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On March 12 2014 01:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2014 01:19 MikeMM wrote:On March 12 2014 01:18 Gorsameth wrote:On March 12 2014 01:16 MikeMM wrote:On March 11 2014 21:07 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 20:57 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 19:53 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 19:28 kukarachaa wrote:On March 11 2014 18:10 Big J wrote:On March 11 2014 18:02 SilentchiLL wrote:
The referendum couldn't be stopped anymore anyway I think, no matter what the EU or america would do. I think it could be stopped by a military action against the Crimean paramilitary terrorists. Of course initiated by the Ukraine and not the EU or US. The problem is that time is running up, after the referendum Russia will claim to protect its territory. Before that, they are at least in a more difficult position. Well if you gonna call Crimean militia paramilitary terrorists, wouldn't that make Ukraine's current government paramilitary terrorists as well. Why? Noone forced Yanukovich to run away. I mean sure, he may have been imprisoned, but that's like saying you "force a bankrobber and murderer to run away by trying to imprison him for the things he has done". Yanukovich ran and the parliament did what it has to do when their leaders have become unable to rule. But even if we say the true president is still Yanukovich, the current government in the Ukraine does not and has not used paramilitairs for their cause. They are now using the legitim executive and army powers, none of which are of terroristic or paramilitary origin. So yeah, you may call the government illegimate, but not not paramilitary terrorists. Meanwhile the Russian troops on Crimea are paramilitairs because they are a military organisation that wears no official signs and small groups of people overtaking military posts from the legimate army is a very terroristic act as far as I know. (unlike a large group of demonstrants overtaking a parliament, which is not a terroristic act, that's a revolution) I think you misunderstood me, I never said Yanukovich is the true president. Just seems hypocritical that you think its ok to raise arms against Yanukovich government, but if you raise arms against the government that overthrew him its not ok. That's not waht I said. I already said that what happened in Kiev is completely different from what is happening on Crimea. The first one was a people's revolution, the second one is foreign guys with guns taking over power. Im curious why you and all other people dont give a damn what people will say on referendum? We will care once No is an actual option on the vote. It is. Or do you have proof that it is not? There are 2 options. 1 is to join russia. 2 is to return to a state where the Crimea government has the power to declare themselves a part of Russia. Where is the "change nothing" option. aka the No.
Clearly putin is so confident in crimeas resolve to join russia that he doesn't feel the crimean people even want a no option.
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EPT
