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Ukraine Crisis - Page 248

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6299 Posts
March 08 2014 13:56 GMT
#4941
On March 08 2014 22:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Detailed opinion piece by Condi

You mean the same Condoleezza Rice that served eight years as the Bush administrations security adviser?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condoleezza_Rice#Iraq
Rice was a proponent of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. After Iraq delivered its declaration of weapons of mass destruction to the United Nations on December 8, 2002, Rice wrote an editorial for The New York Times entitled "Why We Know Iraq Is Lying".[54]

lol, just lol
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
followZeRoX
Profile Joined March 2011
Serbia1451 Posts
March 08 2014 14:04 GMT
#4942
Someone is citing Mrs.Rice hahaha, omg.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 14:48:39
March 08 2014 14:46 GMT
#4943
Why would you care about Condi's policies in this context, she was in meetings with relevant parties as Secretary of state so she can report details no-one else can. Read the article, it has interesting background information.

***
OSCE (OSCE)

Military assessment visitors from OSCE States turned back from Crimea checkpoint at Armyans'k. Warning shots fired. Everyone safe. #Ukraine




4:07 PM Mar 8th via Twitter for iPhone
http://twitter.com/OSCE/status/442300671740870656

***

Kremlinology by the NYT:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/europe/russias-move-into-ukraine-said-to-be-born-in-shadows.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&referrer=
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 15:12:25
March 08 2014 14:57 GMT
#4944
On March 08 2014 23:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
Why would you care about Condi's policies in this context, she was in meetings with relevant parties as Secretary of state so she can report details no-one else can. Read the article, it has interesting background information.

***
OSCE (OSCE)

Military assessment visitors from OSCE States turned back from Crimea checkpoint at Armyans'k. Warning shots fired. Everyone safe. #Ukraine




4:07 PM Mar 8th via Twitter for iPhone
http://twitter.com/OSCE/status/442300671740870656

***

Kremlinology by the NYT:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/europe/russias-move-into-ukraine-said-to-be-born-in-shadows.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&referrer=


Not really. As soon as you read the name Condi Rice in the authorship, you pretty much knew what her talking points were. They are as full of bland and mediocre diagnoses on Russian foreign policy as they ever were. Her gossip about her conversations with Lavrov in 2008 are not to be taken at face value.

Her preamble alone illustrates how aloof she is from reality: Yanukovych was not Putin's "man", and relations between them had been strained for years prior to the outbreak of the protests. When Putin signaled his readiness to dump Yanukovych and support new leadership in the Ukraine, he was more or less sincere.

The optimal line to take now is not to force a Russian puppet into the Ukrainian leadership, but to make sure that the interests of the anti-EU/Russian-leaning portions of the country are duly represented in a new government. Through this means, the Russians can block further Ukrainian association with the EU/NATO while upholding the principle of "democratic legitimacy"
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 08 2014 15:07 GMT
#4945
OSCE (OSCE)

Media freedom under siege in Crimea, Ukraine, says OSCE rep Mijatovic (.@OSCE_RFoM)- condemns closure of TV channels, attacks on journalists

4:49 PM Mar 8th via web
http://twitter.com/OSCE/status/442311050814566400
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9239 Posts
March 08 2014 15:16 GMT
#4946
Yeah people should stop calling Yanukovich a Russian puppet. He was stealing for himself and Russians didn't really like him.
You're now breathing manually
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18835 Posts
March 08 2014 15:20 GMT
#4947
That does not change the fact that Yanukovich was the one who opted for Putin's economic deal in spite of support for the EU one.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 15:41:52
March 08 2014 15:23 GMT
#4948
On March 08 2014 23:57 MoltkeWarding wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 08 2014 23:46 Ghanburighan wrote:
Why would you care about Condi's policies in this context, she was in meetings with relevant parties as Secretary of state so she can report details no-one else can. Read the article, it has interesting background information.

***
OSCE (OSCE)

Military assessment visitors from OSCE States turned back from Crimea checkpoint at Armyans'k. Warning shots fired. Everyone safe. #Ukraine




4:07 PM Mar 8th via Twitter for iPhone
http://twitter.com/OSCE/status/442300671740870656

***

Kremlinology by the NYT:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/world/europe/russias-move-into-ukraine-said-to-be-born-in-shadows.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&referrer=


Not really. As soon as you read the name Condi Rice in the authorship, you pretty much knew what her talking points were. They are as full of bland and mediocre diagnoses on Russian foreign policy as they ever were. Her gossip about her conversations with Lavrov in 2008 are not to be taken at face value.

Her preamble alone illustrates how aloof she is from reality: Yanukovych was not Putin's "man", and relations between them had been strained for years prior to the outbreak of the protests. When Putin signaled his readiness to dump Yanukovych and support new leadership in the Ukraine, he was more or less sincere.

I found the analysis pretty bland too, and she has a torn reputation to begin with. When it comes to Yanukovych I think it is obvious that Yanukovych was not as popular as she thinks. However a readiness to dump him would entail getting someone positionend to follow in his footsteps. If I look at ukrainian politics, I see a lot of different degrees of nationalists in western Ukraine who will make the ukrainian import of workers and goods to Moscow harder and generally are a no-go for him. There are very few obvious picks from eastern Ukraine, since many of them are from the spintered Party of Regions. The best and only pick from east would probably be the chokolade king, but he is a moderate politically and evil tongues (RT) will know that he supported Right Sector during the dethronement of Yanukovych, so Kremlins opinion of him seems clear.

Edit: nvm
Repeat before me
lolfail9001
Profile Joined August 2013
Russian Federation40190 Posts
March 08 2014 15:40 GMT
#4949
On March 09 2014 00:20 farvacola wrote:
That does not change the fact that Yanukovich was the one who opted for Putin's economic deal in spite of support for the EU one.

Gotta pick the thing that gives you more money. His aim was money after all.
DeMoN pulls off a Miracle and Flies to the Moon
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 08 2014 15:42 GMT
#4950
given what we've seen yanukovich was most likely personally bribed by russia for the deal.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
March 08 2014 15:49 GMT
#4951
On March 09 2014 00:20 farvacola wrote:
That does not change the fact that Yanukovich was the one who opted for Putin's economic deal in spite of support for the EU one.


When Yanukovych jettisoned the Vilnius accords in November, polling in the Ukraine showed that support was split on the question: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poll-ukrainian-public-split-over-eu-customs-union-options-332470.html

Furthermore, the "deal" Putin offered Yanukovych was the real failure of Russian diplomacy, for its intention was not only to secure the impression that Yanukovych made the rational decision, but that Russia was a more generous benefactor than the West. Instead, it entrenched within the minds in the opposition the impression that Putin was drawing Ukraine into his orbit, and that Yanukovych in his piligrimage to Moscow, had committed himself to joining the Russian Customs Union, a measure which was repeatedly denied by Yanukovych.

However, the illusion drawn by the West that the triumph of Maidan demonstrates that Ukrainians largely "support the EU" is precisely the line of argument the Russians have been attacking: "support" cannot be determined by who owns the streets. What was achieved by rioters in Maidan was the expressed will of the vocal minority, at the expense of the silent majority. The only way to make sure of the government's democratic legitimacy is proper elections which ensures that the voices of the other side are properly expressed. Once expressed, the Ukraine will fall back into its split orientation, which will mean that in all probability, the Ukraine will be kept out of the EU association agreement unless Russia is dealt in on the deal.
Imola
Profile Joined December 2012
Russian Federation24 Posts
March 08 2014 15:59 GMT
#4952
Poor military observants, they under such stress. Its hard just to write in twitter that they cant do anything. Guess in 1998 they done such great job, its still rings.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18835 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:01:53
March 08 2014 16:01 GMT
#4953
The purported splitness of the Ukraine remains to be given proper evidence from either side of the fence.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 08 2014 16:12 GMT
#4954
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
MoltkeWarding
Profile Joined November 2003
5195 Posts
March 08 2014 16:18 GMT
#4955
Ultimately, whether the split is 50-50 or 60-40 or 40-60 does not matter. What matters is which faction controls the pulpit, and whether they can block the opposition from issuing their arguments. Once they have a monopoly on the expression of opinion, they can claim to speak in the name of the "people."

In the past few weeks we have heard one canned line after another about the poor "people" of the Ukraine. Everyone: the Russians, the provisional government, Yanukovych in exile, Western News anchors, are with "the people." But the "people" for all concerned is merely a personalised abstraction through which their own wishful thinking is filtered. "Evidence" in that sense is rather a rhetorical tool than a epistmeological one.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:31:23
March 08 2014 16:22 GMT
#4956


Also reports of Russian troops capturing new areas.

Edit: That last bit:


Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18835 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-08 16:27:01
March 08 2014 16:26 GMT
#4957
Such is the case with many concepts in IR and governance; that does not change the fact that any assurances as to the future national direction of the Ukranian people are almost certainly not worth the breath that give them air.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
March 08 2014 16:29 GMT
#4958
They are really invading the rest of Ukraine ?
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 08 2014 16:33 GMT
#4959
On March 09 2014 01:29 Faust852 wrote:
They are really invading the rest of Ukraine ?


Only a pessimist would say that. But I have noticed that in the last week, pessimism is a pretty accurate methodology for predicting Russia's next act.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11598 Posts
March 08 2014 16:34 GMT
#4960
This is getting pretty scary. Especially considering how it resembles certain historical events.
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