EPTYeah, ok.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 244
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
Yeah, ok. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 08 2014 09:42 Saryph wrote: Putin saving the world from fascism... Here is the translation: По словам автора нормативного акта, поправки касаются установления административной и уголовной ответственности для руководителей средств массовой информации, «которые допускают публикации с лживой антироссийской информацией, обеспечивают информационную поддержку экстремистским и сепаратистским силам антироссийской направленности, в том числе и при отражении событий за границами России». In the words of the author of the new act, the changes will touch established administrative and criminal responsibility for leaders/managers of sources of mass media that will allow the publication with anti-russian lies, provide information supporting extremist and separatist antirussian forces, including in relation to events that are occurring beyond the border of Russia | ||
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farvacola
United States18835 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
One thing i just can't get in my head.. How can an entire government (it's not just putin) be that delusional and disattached from reality? It completely feels like soviet-union all over again, the methods are identical. If you do not praise us, don't say nothing or you "die". It's like russia is stuck in the middle of 1950 somewhere, lying to themselves how glorious they are. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 08 2014 09:24 Cheerio wrote: Moscow people don't pay for anything, it's the oil and gas-rich regions of Russia who do. Would be good for them if they realized it and decided to have an independence referendum. You kidding me? Compare taxes which people pay in Moscow and in oil/gas regions. Compare population. And then speak. No offense but it's ridiculous to hear from people from other country who have no idea and think that elite who privatised oil/gas production pay for anything instead of getting that money into offshores. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:04 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Gazprom / Rosneft have their HQ in Moscow and that is where their point of sales are recorded for tax purposes. I dont think its ridiculous to say that places like Tyumen or Tatarstan get screwed over because the income that they generate from the oil/gas on their lands is registered as coming from Moscow.You kidding me? Compare taxes which people pay in Moscow and in oil/gas regions. Compare population. And then speak. No offense but it's ridiculous to hear from people from other country who have no idea and think that elite who privatised oil/gas production pay for anything instead of getting that money into offshores. But its true, a lot of oligarchs pay almost no tax. Rusal has paid 4-9% on its income. But whose fault it is, Derepeksas or mighty Putin? Maybe some of those troops in Crimea 'protecting against fascism' should go find your missing tax money in London instead no? | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:07 Sub40APM wrote: Gazprom / Rosneft have their HQ in Moscow and that is where their point of sales are recorded for tax purposes. I dont think its ridiculous to say that places like Tyumen or Tatarstan get screwed over because the income that they generate from the oil/gas on their lands is registered as coming from Moscow. But its true, a lot of oligarchs pay almost no tax. Rusal has paid 4-9% on its income. But whose fault it is, Derepeksas or mighty Putin? Maybe some of those troops in Crimea 'protecting against fascism' should go find your missing tax money in London instead no? He's Deripaska btw :D You ask me to get troops back? I basically don't care at all, what will they do there until there is no victims and other stuff. Sources from every side tend to overhype stuff which is happening there anyway and everyone has to chill out before 16th March. After it we will laugh how USA and EU will say how referendum is illegal and other shit while they did same with Kosovo before. And everything will stop after it. Peace. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 08 2014 09:58 m4ini wrote: Considering that all western media are terroristic agencies now, let's hope russia doesn't bring democracy n shit to us. One thing i just can't get in my head.. How can an entire government (it's not just putin) be that delusional and disattached from reality? It completely feels like soviet-union all over again, the methods are identical. If you do not praise us, don't say nothing or you "die". It's like russia is stuck in the middle of 1950 somewhere, lying to themselves how glorious they are. Ho do you know they are not just doing PR for their population ? A lot of assumptions here about Russian leadership being delusional. Possible, but propaganda and despotic methods do not make one delusional. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:15 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: He's Deripaska btw :D You ask me to get troops back? I basically don't care at all, what will they do there until there is no victims and other stuff. Sources from every side tend to overhype stuff which is happening there anyway and everyone has to chill out before 16th March. After it we will laugh how USA and EU will say how referendum is illegal and other shit while they did same with Kosovo before. And everything will stop after it. Peace. Over-hype what? What are the Russian occupation troops going to do to all the Ukrainian troops heroically not surrendering or letting themselves get provoked? This isnt going to end on March 16. | ||
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SupplyBlockedTV
Belgium313 Posts
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:15 mcc wrote: Ho do you know they are not just doing PR for their population ? A lot of assumptions here about Russian leadership being delusional. Possible, but propaganda and despotic methods do not make one delusional. I tend to think that if something looks like cheese, smells like cheese, tastes like cheese, feels like cheese - it is indeed cheese, and not some burger in disguise. Also, inflaming the "cold-war" again, and expecting to get somehow with undamaged skin out of it, is pretty delusional, yes. Not to mention, that people believing in obviously retarded propaganda are kinda the definition of delusional. I could even quote wiki on it (just checked to make sure) : "A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary". Doesn't matter where that belief comes from, it's still delusional. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On March 08 2014 08:49 Sub40APM wrote: I dont really get this attitude.. Lets say America is as evil as Russia, and lets also say they get away with being evil because they are so powerful. Why would a country that is even less democratic than America, with an even less free press, law system or civil society behave better? We have already seen what happens to country that fall into various spheres of influence, its true that being in America's sphere of influence in Africa or Latin America or some Asian countries was terrible but compare East vs. West Germany or Hungary vs Austria or Poland vs Holland or South Korea vs North Korea or Thailand vs Cambodia. Even the folly of Vietnam was undone by domestic protests in America -- it was literally an election issue that caused the sitting president to not run for a re-election (despite the inherent massive advantage that most sitting presidents have vs a challenger). The soviets on the other hand left Afghanistan only after they ran out of money. Since the collapse of Catholic universalism five centuries ago, European and Western civilisation have generally come to cherish the notion that no single nation should dominate the world. Russia, because of her low prestige and development, has never been, and never will be able to assume that role. Her 40-year "Imperialism" in Eastern Europe amounted to less than nothing in the long-run. On the other hand, Russia as a backward yet undeniably great power has historically served the purposes of global stability in an unconscious manner, because although she herself could not dominate, her existence has time and again prevented domination by a Western hegemonic power; whether France, Germany, Britain or the United States. Although few Western nations would cherish Russian government, each and every one of them has owed something, at one time or another, to her natural anchoring effect in the equilibrium of history. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:25 MoltkeWarding wrote: Since the collapse of Catholic universalism five centuries ago, European and Western civilisation have generally come to cherish the notion that no single nation should dominate the world. Russia, because of her low prestige and development, has never been, and never will be able to assume that role. Her 40-year "Imperialism" in Eastern Europe amounted to less than nothing in the long-run. On the other hand, Russia as a backward yet undeniably great power has historically served the purposes of global stability in an unconscious manner, because although she herself could not dominate, her existence has time and again prevented domination by a Western hegemonic power; whether France, Germany, Britain or the United States. Although few Western nations would cherish Russian government, each and every one of them has owed something, at one time or another, to her natural anchoring effect in the equilibrium of history. Would you say that this crisis could make russia lose this status, because the EU will now actively reach out (with priority i mean) to get away from russian energy - and as soon as that will happen..? | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
Daily Show take on American conservatives who view Putin as a strong force while mocking Obama: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-6-2014/big-vladdy---semi-delusional-autocrats | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:23 m4ini wrote: I tend to think that if something looks like cheese, smells like cheese, tastes like cheese, feels like cheese - it is indeed cheese, and not some burger in disguise. Also, inflaming the "cold-war" again, and expecting to get somehow with undamaged skin out of it, is pretty delusional, yes. Not to mention, that people believing in obviously retarded propaganda are kinda the definition of delusional. I could even quote wiki on it (just checked to make sure) : "A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary". Doesn't matter where that belief comes from, it's still delusional. But we do not know if they actually believe all they are saying, so no, there is not much to decide whether they are delusional. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:35 m4ini wrote: Would you say that this crisis could make russia lose this status, because the EU will now actively reach out (with priority i mean) to get away from russian energy - and as soon as that will happen..? So far, Russia only seems to be gaining from this crisis. I don't see how the continuation of what something the European Union has been trying to do for a long time will change things, not to mention Russia has been smartly shifting away from this reliance itself afaik. They recovered from the darkest effects of the 1990s so rebuilding other areas is the most logical step. I think the Russians have been looking at things as a worst-case scenario and accommodate accordingly. They are fully aware of what's happening or may (or may not) happen in the future, and to say otherwise (not saying you or anyone here said it) is ludicrous. They will compensate it with growth other areas and industries. Not as huge a deal as many people are making it out to be. Also, selling fuels to other countries in Europe is not 100%, or anywhere remotely close, of Russia's influence/power. I'll assume this isn't what you are implying  | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:19 SupplyBlockedTV wrote: The argument that ukrain revolt was led by fascists is pure bullshit...maybe the nationalist were the first to stand up against a corrupt government...because yea..they are nationalists and they love their country...there is nothing wrong with that, that doesnt mean they are neo-nazis (maybe a few of them are..but that would be less then 1% of the thousands of people who joined the protest). Also it pissing me off that even people here in belgium are pro russian...they know nothing about the situation in ukrain, nothing, they dont live there. Fact is that a democratic country is being invaded by troops that have no right to be there because the people decided they had enough of the corrupt loser that was leading their country..and corruption is a very big issue in eastern european countries...its not something the people just make up. fuck putin (i used to think he was a cool guy..but he lost my respect now) Actually no, not just few people. Though not even close to majority. But worrying amount nonetheless. The 5-6 guys that are in the government now are simply fascists, they go far beyond loving their country. Also Putin lost your respect now ? He did nothing worse now (yet), compared to what he is doing in Russia for last 15 years. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
Also, selling fuels to other countries in Europe is not 100%, or anywhere remotely close, of Russia's influence/power. I'll assume this isn't what you are implying You call 70% "not anywhere remotely close"? 70% of everything that russia exports into the whole EU (not just germany) is not the biggest factor of russias influence? Wow. Another cute number: in 2007, the EU imported 40% of it's gas-needs (total) from russia. Any idea how big that is, and how much leverage that gives you? What do you think would happen if america would lose 40% of their oil-imports, with (so far) no suitable alternatives? Actually, wrong question. Do you think america would jeopardize that? edit2: Not to mention that Gazprom (mostly state-owned) lost 60 billions in two days. Would not call that "gain". | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:04 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: You kidding me? Compare taxes which people pay in Moscow and in oil/gas regions. Compare population. And then speak. ... what's your point? That oil and gas-rich regions would not be better off economically if they seperated themselves from Russia? And you made that conclusion on the fact that Moscow pays a lot of taxes? That's just hilarious. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On March 08 2014 10:48 m4ini wrote: You call 70% "not anywhere remotely close"? 70% of everything that russia exports into the whole EU (not just germany) is not the biggest factor of russias influence? Wow. Another cute number: in 2007, the EU imported 40% of it's gas-needs (total) from russia. Any idea how big that is, and how much leverage that gives you? What do you think would happen if america would lose 40% of their oil-imports, with (so far) no suitable alternatives? Actually, wrong question. Do you think america would jeopardize that? edit2: Not to mention that Gazprom (mostly state-owned) lost 60 billions in two days. Would not call that "gain". No, I didn't call anything, anything. I wasn't talking about percentage of exports. I was talking about ways in which a nation can exert its influence. Please learn to comprehend English. It makes one look very foolish when they do not do so, in addition to deciding to be a smart ass on top of that. By no means is selling fuels the entirety of how any nation, especially Russia, can exert its power and influence abroad. That is what I was stating, not whatever economic data you're giving me. The current situation though is that Europe has such a HUGE demand for Russian fuels, and Russia is meeting that demand. If and when demand slowly decreases, Russia compensates with other things. Supply and demand. There is a huge demand, and Russia is supplying. Unless you wanted everyone in Europe to freeze to death at some point, then it is good that Russia is meeting a huge demand. The United States practically runs a big chunk of the world, and it imports a lot more than it exports haha! To say that trade is the only way to ensure imperial leverage is absurd. By your logic, the US would be weaker than some other countries haha! Your myth that EU came up with this brilliant plan to slowly reduce reliance on foreign energy which in turn would make Russia asplode if they weren't able to sell as much fuel a decade or two down the line is rather fantastical. If the EU saw that they could severely weaken Russia any time in the past X years by doing this, they would have made the moves then, not when Russia is showing even with a small show of force, it has everyone in Europe hiding under their desks (exaggerating, but it's more the case than not), much like most the world fears an aggressive America. Also, again, nations can adapt to changes, and Russia is better equipped than all but a handful of nations to do this. I seriously hope you're not denying this will eventually happen. | ||
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