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On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated.
Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries.
As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better.
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On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better
Really, in what way ? How do you even measure it. In deaths per country per 100 years or what ? And do you have any numbers or are you just making them up as you go.
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On December 17 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better Not by a long shot. Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 21:56 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 21:32 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 21:01 zeo wrote:On December 16 2013 20:25 darkness wrote:On December 16 2013 19:24 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 17:54 Feartheguru wrote:On December 16 2013 17:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 16 2013 17:20 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 16:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
[quote]
Yup, but the chocolate was only the first ban, officially they told that some toxin was found in chocolate, suddenly was found, after 10 years of transitions, afterwords, many other stuff was also banneed, aswell as aircraft engines/milk and food products/light industry products. Many many workfolks been fired due to this export problems. There is no place we can trade our products, Russia was the biggest export country we got, (and still it is), I actually cannot imagine that some German family gonna buy our milk everyday, or some Czech buddies gonna drink ukrainian beer in a pubs, I didn't had an opportunity to collate our products with european analog, but I suppose that european one is at least a bit better. And to improve our production facilities, light and heavy industry, chemical and food industry, we need a huge credit, not sure that Germany gonna agree with that, u guys already have some problems with Greece, Spain and Portugal, which economy is also shitty atm.
What also Ukraine needs are stable and predictable export partners, not a destination where the whole trade can be stopped overnight. I remember meat embargo Russia placed on Poland, citing lack of certificates. Guess what? Government has changed, with it the line of government towards Russia has changed and embargo was gone. This is how Russia "negotiates" and "trades" with other countries. Exactly, this is the way how Russian gov. forcing neighbours for "right" decisions about parthnership, but also u should not assault russian ppl, they are the same victims of their gov. as we are here, we are almost equally struggling. The main problem or Ukraine and Russian is totally corrupted politicians, and it's also one interesting thing that 99% of countrys finances been accumulated by 20 richest dudes, the rest 1% of cash splits for 40 million ppl, strange enough? We are mostly good and kind people, but our politicians are mostly bandits and thieves, that's why I'm srsly thinking about emigration  This makes no sense. Do you actually expect Russia to continue to allow themselves to serve as an export market for Ukraine's industry while waving it off into the sunset as it integrates with Europe? Russia is simply telling you, if you go with Europe this is what you will lose, you get to decide what the "right" decision is. Either way you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. There's no "forcing" here, but poor countries with uncompetitive industries get pushed around, fact of life. It would be fair to extend the same protectionist measures against Ukraine as it does other EU associated countries, I suppose. But this isn't what Russia does. They will arbitrarily ban things to punish Ukraine, like it does with any country it has diplomatic tensions with. Netherlands had a series of diplomatic incidents with Russia recently, and suddenly a bunch of Dutch products apparently are terribly dangerous to Russian health. As I said, Russia hates to lose power. No Eastern European country really likes Russia in my opinion, we're/they're just forced. (Ex-)communists kind of have no conscience and respect for others who don't share the same opinion.  In fact, I'm thinking that there is some kind of Cold War already. Putin who tries to build up some Eurasian Union and who also gets Edward Snowden under his wing, while the west wants to win Ukraine over. This, and NSA's spying programme. We live in a weird world. I think you are forgetting that Ukraine has a huge ass border with Russia. I wonder if the people protesting in Kiev have a grasp of the consequences of propping up a russophobic puppet regime right on Russia's doorstep. It's easy for people from Stockholm and London to go on about 'muh freedom' but they won't be the ones on the doorstep of a hostile nuclear power, ask Cuba what life is like next to the US. They also need to know that when half the county calls for independence because they don't want to be a part of a country that isn't on Russia's side, guess who will be more than happy to roll in the tanks to 'protect the will of the people'? EDIT: also, joining NATO would be textbook 'going full retard' Hmmm, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia joined NATO. I did not observe any of their territory violated since they joined. Why Ukraine would go full retard where as these three countries also have, proportionally to their territory, huge ass borders with Russia? I don't think there is any real threat of Russian military hostilities. Such a thing would not be tolerated by the EU and US, and Russia is very much aware of that. It isn't like Russia and EU have hostile diplomatic relations in general either. I also don't see how military intervention can be beneficial to Russia even if there wouldn't be any international response. No matter the choice this won't have huge international consequences. The only thing at stake is Ukraine's economic, social and political prosperity. I hope they can choose wisely. No offence, but you are naive if you think NATO members would actually help the Baltic states had Russia attacked them... Only countries that actually have something at stake in such a scenario would react, i.e. other countries that are frequently a target of Russian hostility (e.g. Poland or Sweden). Does Phoney War ring a bell?
How does strategic situation from 100 years ago have any bearing on this scenario ?
EDIT: and before you start - 74 years.
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On December 17 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better Not by a long shot. Show nested quote +On December 16 2013 21:56 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 21:32 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 21:01 zeo wrote:On December 16 2013 20:25 darkness wrote:On December 16 2013 19:24 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 17:54 Feartheguru wrote:On December 16 2013 17:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 16 2013 17:20 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 16:52 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
[quote]
Yup, but the chocolate was only the first ban, officially they told that some toxin was found in chocolate, suddenly was found, after 10 years of transitions, afterwords, many other stuff was also banneed, aswell as aircraft engines/milk and food products/light industry products. Many many workfolks been fired due to this export problems. There is no place we can trade our products, Russia was the biggest export country we got, (and still it is), I actually cannot imagine that some German family gonna buy our milk everyday, or some Czech buddies gonna drink ukrainian beer in a pubs, I didn't had an opportunity to collate our products with european analog, but I suppose that european one is at least a bit better. And to improve our production facilities, light and heavy industry, chemical and food industry, we need a huge credit, not sure that Germany gonna agree with that, u guys already have some problems with Greece, Spain and Portugal, which economy is also shitty atm.
What also Ukraine needs are stable and predictable export partners, not a destination where the whole trade can be stopped overnight. I remember meat embargo Russia placed on Poland, citing lack of certificates. Guess what? Government has changed, with it the line of government towards Russia has changed and embargo was gone. This is how Russia "negotiates" and "trades" with other countries. Exactly, this is the way how Russian gov. forcing neighbours for "right" decisions about parthnership, but also u should not assault russian ppl, they are the same victims of their gov. as we are here, we are almost equally struggling. The main problem or Ukraine and Russian is totally corrupted politicians, and it's also one interesting thing that 99% of countrys finances been accumulated by 20 richest dudes, the rest 1% of cash splits for 40 million ppl, strange enough? We are mostly good and kind people, but our politicians are mostly bandits and thieves, that's why I'm srsly thinking about emigration This makes no sense. Do you actually expect Russia to continue to allow themselves to serve as an export market for Ukraine's industry while waving it off into the sunset as it integrates with Europe? Russia is simply telling you, if you go with Europe this is what you will lose, you get to decide what the "right" decision is. Either way you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. There's no "forcing" here, but poor countries with uncompetitive industries get pushed around, fact of life. It would be fair to extend the same protectionist measures against Ukraine as it does other EU associated countries, I suppose. But this isn't what Russia does. They will arbitrarily ban things to punish Ukraine, like it does with any country it has diplomatic tensions with. Netherlands had a series of diplomatic incidents with Russia recently, and suddenly a bunch of Dutch products apparently are terribly dangerous to Russian health. As I said, Russia hates to lose power. No Eastern European country really likes Russia in my opinion, we're/they're just forced. (Ex-)communists kind of have no conscience and respect for others who don't share the same opinion. In fact, I'm thinking that there is some kind of Cold War already. Putin who tries to build up some Eurasian Union and who also gets Edward Snowden under his wing, while the west wants to win Ukraine over. This, and NSA's spying programme. We live in a weird world. I think you are forgetting that Ukraine has a huge ass border with Russia. I wonder if the people protesting in Kiev have a grasp of the consequences of propping up a russophobic puppet regime right on Russia's doorstep. It's easy for people from Stockholm and London to go on about 'muh freedom' but they won't be the ones on the doorstep of a hostile nuclear power, ask Cuba what life is like next to the US. They also need to know that when half the county calls for independence because they don't want to be a part of a country that isn't on Russia's side, guess who will be more than happy to roll in the tanks to 'protect the will of the people'? EDIT: also, joining NATO would be textbook 'going full retard' Hmmm, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia joined NATO. I did not observe any of their territory violated since they joined. Why Ukraine would go full retard where as these three countries also have, proportionally to their territory, huge ass borders with Russia? I don't think there is any real threat of Russian military hostilities. Such a thing would not be tolerated by the EU and US, and Russia is very much aware of that. It isn't like Russia and EU have hostile diplomatic relations in general either. I also don't see how military intervention can be beneficial to Russia even if there wouldn't be any international response. No matter the choice this won't have huge international consequences. The only thing at stake is Ukraine's economic, social and political prosperity. I hope they can choose wisely. No offence, but you are naive if you think NATO members would actually help the Baltic states had Russia attacked them... Only countries that actually have something at stake in such a scenario would react, i.e. other countries that are frequently a target of Russian hostility (e.g. Poland or Sweden). Does Phoney War ring a bell?
Outright war against Russia is not possible, obviously. But the international consequences would be extremely severe, it would have led to renewed isolation of Russia, which isn't what anyone wants, and especially not Russia.
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On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better.
And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language).
Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior.
On December 17 2013 05:52 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better Not by a long shot. On December 16 2013 21:56 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 21:32 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 21:01 zeo wrote:On December 16 2013 20:25 darkness wrote:On December 16 2013 19:24 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 17:54 Feartheguru wrote:On December 16 2013 17:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On December 16 2013 17:20 Roman666 wrote:
[quote]
What also Ukraine needs are stable and predictable export partners, not a destination where the whole trade can be stopped overnight. I remember meat embargo Russia placed on Poland, citing lack of certificates. Guess what? Government has changed, with it the line of government towards Russia has changed and embargo was gone.
This is how Russia "negotiates" and "trades" with other countries. Exactly, this is the way how Russian gov. forcing neighbours for "right" decisions about parthnership, but also u should not assault russian ppl, they are the same victims of their gov. as we are here, we are almost equally struggling. The main problem or Ukraine and Russian is totally corrupted politicians, and it's also one interesting thing that 99% of countrys finances been accumulated by 20 richest dudes, the rest 1% of cash splits for 40 million ppl, strange enough? We are mostly good and kind people, but our politicians are mostly bandits and thieves, that's why I'm srsly thinking about emigration This makes no sense. Do you actually expect Russia to continue to allow themselves to serve as an export market for Ukraine's industry while waving it off into the sunset as it integrates with Europe? Russia is simply telling you, if you go with Europe this is what you will lose, you get to decide what the "right" decision is. Either way you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. There's no "forcing" here, but poor countries with uncompetitive industries get pushed around, fact of life. It would be fair to extend the same protectionist measures against Ukraine as it does other EU associated countries, I suppose. But this isn't what Russia does. They will arbitrarily ban things to punish Ukraine, like it does with any country it has diplomatic tensions with. Netherlands had a series of diplomatic incidents with Russia recently, and suddenly a bunch of Dutch products apparently are terribly dangerous to Russian health. As I said, Russia hates to lose power. No Eastern European country really likes Russia in my opinion, we're/they're just forced. (Ex-)communists kind of have no conscience and respect for others who don't share the same opinion. In fact, I'm thinking that there is some kind of Cold War already. Putin who tries to build up some Eurasian Union and who also gets Edward Snowden under his wing, while the west wants to win Ukraine over. This, and NSA's spying programme. We live in a weird world. I think you are forgetting that Ukraine has a huge ass border with Russia. I wonder if the people protesting in Kiev have a grasp of the consequences of propping up a russophobic puppet regime right on Russia's doorstep. It's easy for people from Stockholm and London to go on about 'muh freedom' but they won't be the ones on the doorstep of a hostile nuclear power, ask Cuba what life is like next to the US. They also need to know that when half the county calls for independence because they don't want to be a part of a country that isn't on Russia's side, guess who will be more than happy to roll in the tanks to 'protect the will of the people'? EDIT: also, joining NATO would be textbook 'going full retard' Hmmm, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia joined NATO. I did not observe any of their territory violated since they joined. Why Ukraine would go full retard where as these three countries also have, proportionally to their territory, huge ass borders with Russia? I don't think there is any real threat of Russian military hostilities. Such a thing would not be tolerated by the EU and US, and Russia is very much aware of that. It isn't like Russia and EU have hostile diplomatic relations in general either. I also don't see how military intervention can be beneficial to Russia even if there wouldn't be any international response. No matter the choice this won't have huge international consequences. The only thing at stake is Ukraine's economic, social and political prosperity. I hope they can choose wisely. No offence, but you are naive if you think NATO members would actually help the Baltic states had Russia attacked them... Only countries that actually have something at stake in such a scenario would react, i.e. other countries that are frequently a target of Russian hostility (e.g. Poland or Sweden). Does Phoney War ring a bell? How does strategic situation from 100 years ago have any bearing on this scenario ? EDIT: and before you start - 74 years.
It blatantly shows that Western "allies" don't give a shit about their obligations unless they will suffer some consequences themselves too.
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On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior.
This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party?
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On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party?
What is your point?
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On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better
You must be trolling. Russia has committed just as many atrocities as the rest of us and you are deluded if you think otherwise. Then again, I am starting to think that you are in fact delusional as you seem to think that if everyone else thinks differently to you then they must all be wrong, because there is no way that you can be.
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In my humble opinion a important indicator of civility is the ability of a nation to acknowledge past atrocities committed by it, forgive past transgressions of other nations against it and solve current disputes through means other than strongman policies. No nation is perfect in this regard, but some do alot better than others...
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On December 17 2013 06:02 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party? What is your point?
You were asking "how is it any better in _the west_?" The liberties thing you tried to use against _the west_ actually is a boomerang argument is what I am saying. Pedophilia is amongst the least accepted things around here - some might even say it's fucking disgusting and sick( and they would be right too). At least where I am from.
So I am asking you, what is left of your point?
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On December 17 2013 06:05 Crushinator wrote:
In my humble opinion a important indicator of civility is the ability of a nation to acknowledge past atrocities committed by it, forgive past transgressions of other nations against it and solve current disputes through means other than strongman policies. No nation is perfect in this regard, but some do alot better than others...
There are but a few countries that do that. It's not like the West hasn't been causing shit in the Middle East, or the Balkans (Kosovo war was not that long ago). And strongarming can often simply be replaced by scheming (the UK spying for the USA, France comitting industrial espionage against Germany or bribing officials in the ME so that their companies would be the ones getting the deals, Germany supporting Erika Steinbach or secretly financing a Silesian separationist moevement in Poland with money).
All in all, I wouldn't say that people in the West are any less brainwashed than they are in the East. Or that they are that much more free. It's closer to soft dictatorship in white gloves vs. blatant dictatorship. It's just that Western countries have less reasons for social unrest because they're wealthy, for various reasons.
On December 17 2013 06:09 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:02 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party? What is your point? You were asking "how is it any better in _the west_?" The liberties thing you tried to use against _the west_ actually is a boomerang argument is what I am saying. Pedophilia is amongst the least accepted things around here - some might even say it's fucking disgusting and sick( and they would be right too). At least where I am from. So I am asking you, what is left of your point?
Read more carefully. I said that it's not a reason enough to feel so much more superior than those "backwards Easter Europeans". Because, for one, it's only been a couple of decades, really. Let me remind you of racism in the USA, gay people going to jail in the UK not so long ago, people being forcefully sterilized in Sweden (abolished only in 1976), police brutality against people opposing the war in Vietnam in the USA or striking miners in the UK under Thatcher. And, secondly, many Western countries are taking it too far: political correctness, affirmative action, allowing pedophile parties, promotion of transvestitism and such among young children (the EU is actually supporting this whole gender ideology). The LGBT organizations are often tied with pedophiles, obviously not openly.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Russian Federation1953 Posts
On December 17 2013 06:04 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better You must be trolling. Russia has committed just as many atrocities as the rest of us and you are deluded if you think otherwise. Then again, I am starting to think that you are in fact delusional as you seem to think that if everyone else thinks differently to you then they must all be wrong, because there is no way that you can be.
I like how UK guy writes smthing on this matter
UK killed nation after nation, enslaved millions, had half of the world as colonies and he is writing something about Russia here
u must say "forgive me and my country for we fcked up this world badly"
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On December 17 2013 06:32 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:04 hzflank wrote:On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better You must be trolling. Russia has committed just as many atrocities as the rest of us and you are deluded if you think otherwise. Then again, I am starting to think that you are in fact delusional as you seem to think that if everyone else thinks differently to you then they must all be wrong, because there is no way that you can be. I like how UK guy writes smthing on this matter UK killed nation after nation, enslaved millions, had half of the world as colonies and he is writing something about Russia here u must say "forgive me and my country for we fcked up this world badly"
way to argue dude. ignore one's point AND point fingers.
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On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior.
I did not say it was better, I said that showing few atrocities does not disprove KwarK's point. I said that today they are better, which is pretty clear considering how much less unnecessary suffering there is. Ever saw jails in poorer countries, corruption is many levels above what is in the West, tolerance for non-harmful behaviours is on much higher level, violence is negligible compared to Russia. Every objective statistical indicator that you want to pick will show you they are better off. You cherrypicking few minor things does not change anything. Pedophiles have political parties, so what ? As long as pedophilia is still a crime I see no problem. Compared to what you can go to jail in Russia, your examples are meaningless.
Nobody talks about being rich, but about lower levels of violence, higher levels of functioning society (justice system, government, fairness,... ), much lower level of prosecuting harmless behaviours. In all of those things Russia (not only) is waaaaaays behind West.
On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 05:52 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 05:24 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:12 PaleMan wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:
Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. thats what i talking about history of western civilisation(s) is a history of crimes against humanity Russia is not saint too, but it looks much better Not by a long shot. On December 16 2013 21:56 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 21:32 Roman666 wrote:On December 16 2013 21:01 zeo wrote:On December 16 2013 20:25 darkness wrote:On December 16 2013 19:24 Crushinator wrote:On December 16 2013 17:54 Feartheguru wrote:On December 16 2013 17:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:[quote] Exactly, this is the way how Russian gov. forcing neighbours for "right" decisions about parthnership, but also u should not assault russian ppl, they are the same victims of their gov. as we are here, we are almost equally struggling. The main problem or Ukraine and Russian is totally corrupted politicians, and it's also one interesting thing that 99% of countrys finances been accumulated by 20 richest dudes, the rest 1% of cash splits for 40 million ppl, strange enough? We are mostly good and kind people, but our politicians are mostly bandits and thieves, that's why I'm srsly thinking about emigration This makes no sense. Do you actually expect Russia to continue to allow themselves to serve as an export market for Ukraine's industry while waving it off into the sunset as it integrates with Europe? Russia is simply telling you, if you go with Europe this is what you will lose, you get to decide what the "right" decision is. Either way you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. There's no "forcing" here, but poor countries with uncompetitive industries get pushed around, fact of life. It would be fair to extend the same protectionist measures against Ukraine as it does other EU associated countries, I suppose. But this isn't what Russia does. They will arbitrarily ban things to punish Ukraine, like it does with any country it has diplomatic tensions with. Netherlands had a series of diplomatic incidents with Russia recently, and suddenly a bunch of Dutch products apparently are terribly dangerous to Russian health. As I said, Russia hates to lose power. No Eastern European country really likes Russia in my opinion, we're/they're just forced. (Ex-)communists kind of have no conscience and respect for others who don't share the same opinion. In fact, I'm thinking that there is some kind of Cold War already. Putin who tries to build up some Eurasian Union and who also gets Edward Snowden under his wing, while the west wants to win Ukraine over. This, and NSA's spying programme. We live in a weird world. I think you are forgetting that Ukraine has a huge ass border with Russia. I wonder if the people protesting in Kiev have a grasp of the consequences of propping up a russophobic puppet regime right on Russia's doorstep. It's easy for people from Stockholm and London to go on about 'muh freedom' but they won't be the ones on the doorstep of a hostile nuclear power, ask Cuba what life is like next to the US. They also need to know that when half the county calls for independence because they don't want to be a part of a country that isn't on Russia's side, guess who will be more than happy to roll in the tanks to 'protect the will of the people'? EDIT: also, joining NATO would be textbook 'going full retard' Hmmm, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia joined NATO. I did not observe any of their territory violated since they joined. Why Ukraine would go full retard where as these three countries also have, proportionally to their territory, huge ass borders with Russia? I don't think there is any real threat of Russian military hostilities. Such a thing would not be tolerated by the EU and US, and Russia is very much aware of that. It isn't like Russia and EU have hostile diplomatic relations in general either. I also don't see how military intervention can be beneficial to Russia even if there wouldn't be any international response. No matter the choice this won't have huge international consequences. The only thing at stake is Ukraine's economic, social and political prosperity. I hope they can choose wisely. No offence, but you are naive if you think NATO members would actually help the Baltic states had Russia attacked them... Only countries that actually have something at stake in such a scenario would react, i.e. other countries that are frequently a target of Russian hostility (e.g. Poland or Sweden). Does Phoney War ring a bell? How does strategic situation from 100 years ago have any bearing on this scenario ? EDIT: and before you start - 74 years. It blatantly shows that Western "allies" don't give a shit about their obligations unless they will suffer some consequences themselves too.
Of course, but how do you go from there to what you said. Times have changed, NATO has many reasons why not to allow Russia to just attack its members. You bringing up phony war is about as valid as me picking one instance in history where they did fulfill their obligations and using it as evidence that they would do so now. Your example has no bearing on current situation whatsoever.
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On December 17 2013 06:18 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:05 Crushinator wrote:
In my humble opinion a important indicator of civility is the ability of a nation to acknowledge past atrocities committed by it, forgive past transgressions of other nations against it and solve current disputes through means other than strongman policies. No nation is perfect in this regard, but some do alot better than others... There are but a few countries that do that. It's not like the West hasn't been causing shit in the Middle East, or the Balkans (Kosovo war was not that long ago). And strongarming can often simply be replaced by scheming (the UK spying for the USA, France comitting industrial espionage against Germany or bribing officials in the ME so that their companies would be the ones getting the deals, Germany supporting Erika Steinbach or secretly financing a Silesian separationist moevement in Poland with money). All in all, I wouldn't say that people in the West are any less brainwashed than they are in the East. Or that they are that much more free. It's closer to soft dictatorship in white gloves vs. blatant dictatorship. It's just that Western countries have less reasons for social unrest because they're wealthy, for various reasons. Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:09 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 06:02 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party? What is your point? You were asking "how is it any better in _the west_?" The liberties thing you tried to use against _the west_ actually is a boomerang argument is what I am saying. Pedophilia is amongst the least accepted things around here - some might even say it's fucking disgusting and sick( and they would be right too). At least where I am from. So I am asking you, what is left of your point? Read more carefully. I said that it's not a reason enough to feel so much more superior than those "backwards Easter Europeans". Because, for one, it's only been a couple of decades, really. Let me remind you of racism in the USA, gay people going to jail in the UK not so long ago, people being forcefully sterilized in Sweden (abolished only in 1976), police brutality against people opposing the war in Vietnam in the USA or striking miners in the UK under Thatcher. And, secondly, many Western countries are taking it too far: political correctness, affirmative action, allowing pedophile parties, promotion of transvestitism and such among young children (the EU is actually supporting this whole gender ideology). The LGBT organizations are often tied with pedophiles, obviously not openly.
And in the meantime even worse things were happening in the eastern bloc. What is your point again ?
Also you finally show yourself as the same bigot as the other guy. EU promoting transvestitism Are you high ? Tolerance is not promotion.
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The point is everybody should take off their rose-tinted glasses and mind their own buisness
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On December 17 2013 06:18 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:05 Crushinator wrote:
In my humble opinion a important indicator of civility is the ability of a nation to acknowledge past atrocities committed by it, forgive past transgressions of other nations against it and solve current disputes through means other than strongman policies. No nation is perfect in this regard, but some do alot better than others... There are but a few countries that do that. It's not like the West hasn't been causing shit in the Middle East, or the Balkans (Kosovo war was not that long ago). And strongarming can often simply be replaced by scheming (the UK spying for the USA, France comitting industrial espionage against Germany or bribing officials in the ME so that their companies would be the ones getting the deals, Germany supporting Erika Steinbach or secretly financing a Silesian separationist moevement in Poland with money). All in all, I wouldn't say that people in the West are any less brainwashed than they are in the East. Or that they are that much more free. It's closer to soft dictatorship in white gloves vs. blatant dictatorship. It's just that Western countries have less reasons for social unrest because they're wealthy, for various reasons. Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:09 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 06:02 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party? What is your point? You were asking "how is it any better in _the west_?" The liberties thing you tried to use against _the west_ actually is a boomerang argument is what I am saying. Pedophilia is amongst the least accepted things around here - some might even say it's fucking disgusting and sick( and they would be right too). At least where I am from. So I am asking you, what is left of your point? Read more carefully. I said that it's not a reason enough to feel so much more superior than those "backwards Easter Europeans". Because, for one, it's only been a couple of decades, really. Let me remind you of racism in the USA, gay people going to jail in the UK not so long ago, people being forcefully sterilized in Sweden (abolished only in 1976), police brutality against people opposing the war in Vietnam in the USA or striking miners in the UK under Thatcher. And, secondly, many Western countries are taking it too far: political correctness, affirmative action, allowing pedophile parties, promotion of transvestitism and such among young children (the EU is actually supporting this whole gender ideology). The LGBT organizations are often tied with pedophiles, obviously not openly.
You certainly like to gnaw on the past things. While the past should not be ignored, you can't build future on pointing fingers and blaming everyone for your country bad position.
As for being civilized, the small things are the factor that make societies to be considered civilized. Your everyday behaviour, how do you approach people and how do you treat them. Here in Poland it is enough to take a look how drivers conduct themselves on the road and treat each other. Everyone on the road is your fucking enemy. It is a freaking wild west. Then again when there is an idiot driving recklessly no one will report him because he could be considered a snitch. How twisted is that? How civilized is that, to stigmatize people that are doing their citizen's duty? You will not experience this shit in western countries, at least not in that ample amount that you get to see here.
I feel like we derailed this topic too far now, lets get back on subject.
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On December 17 2013 07:06 zeo wrote:
The point is everybody should take off their rose-tinted glasses and mind their own buisness
That sounds about right. Everyone's got enough shit to worry about.
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United States43973 Posts
On December 17 2013 07:06 zeo wrote:
The point is everybody should take off their rose-tinted glasses and mind their own buisness
Serbians wanting the rest of the world to not look too closely at what a nation does to its people and its neighbours.
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On December 17 2013 06:48 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 06:18 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 06:05 Crushinator wrote:
In my humble opinion a important indicator of civility is the ability of a nation to acknowledge past atrocities committed by it, forgive past transgressions of other nations against it and solve current disputes through means other than strongman policies. No nation is perfect in this regard, but some do alot better than others... There are but a few countries that do that. It's not like the West hasn't been causing shit in the Middle East, or the Balkans (Kosovo war was not that long ago). And strongarming can often simply be replaced by scheming (the UK spying for the USA, France comitting industrial espionage against Germany or bribing officials in the ME so that their companies would be the ones getting the deals, Germany supporting Erika Steinbach or secretly financing a Silesian separationist moevement in Poland with money). All in all, I wouldn't say that people in the West are any less brainwashed than they are in the East. Or that they are that much more free. It's closer to soft dictatorship in white gloves vs. blatant dictatorship. It's just that Western countries have less reasons for social unrest because they're wealthy, for various reasons. On December 17 2013 06:09 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 06:02 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 06:00 Doublemint wrote:On December 17 2013 05:57 maybenexttime wrote:On December 17 2013 05:48 mcc wrote:On December 17 2013 04:44 maybenexttime wrote:On December 16 2013 08:23 KwarK wrote:
I think history and society shows the Eastern bloc countries aren't as civilised. I don't blame the people, I blame the society they were born into. With time it'll change. As for Russia, general human decency has some attitude problems with Russia, it doesn't cause any conflicts though because they're never in the same room together. Well, fuck me if Western countries are that much more civilized! Slavery, colonization of Africa and other parts of the world, Leopold II's (king of Belgium) genocide in Congo, the Holocaust, forced sterilization in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?), pedophile political party in the Netherlands and Green Party founded by pedophiles in Germany. So sophisticated. Specifically Russia and some other eastern bloc countries (far from even majority) are at this exact date less "civilized". Although the word is rather stupid, I would rather say that they have more social issues than the West or some other eastern countries. As much as I disagree with KwarK on his general statement and how wrong he is factually, your counterexamples do not really prove anything. He did not claim that West was perfect, just that it was better. And how was it exactly any better? Just because for the past 50 or so years it does not have to subjugate/enslave other nations, drain their economies (save for the USA)? Or because people there can enjoy some more liberties (although it is going too far with promotion of deviations starting from daycare, allowing pedophiles to have their political parties, etc.)? They still get spied on to no end, or go to jail/pay enormous fines for petty crimes (like smoking marihuana or using non-politically correct language). Being richer does not make you more civilized or morally superior. This alone would be a good argument. You make it sound like it was a bad thing. Pedophiles have their own religion(s). Why would they need a political party? What is your point? You were asking "how is it any better in _the west_?" The liberties thing you tried to use against _the west_ actually is a boomerang argument is what I am saying. Pedophilia is amongst the least accepted things around here - some might even say it's fucking disgusting and sick( and they would be right too). At least where I am from. So I am asking you, what is left of your point? Read more carefully. I said that it's not a reason enough to feel so much more superior than those "backwards Easter Europeans". Because, for one, it's only been a couple of decades, really. Let me remind you of racism in the USA, gay people going to jail in the UK not so long ago, people being forcefully sterilized in Sweden (abolished only in 1976), police brutality against people opposing the war in Vietnam in the USA or striking miners in the UK under Thatcher. And, secondly, many Western countries are taking it too far: political correctness, affirmative action, allowing pedophile parties, promotion of transvestitism and such among young children (the EU is actually supporting this whole gender ideology). The LGBT organizations are often tied with pedophiles, obviously not openly. And in the meantime even worse things were happening in the eastern bloc. What is your point again ? Also you finally show yourself as the same bigot as the other guy. EU promoting transvestitism Are you high ? Tolerance is not promotion.
My point is that the West being more civilized is questionable at best. And, if anything, it's a very recent thing. Your comment that the West was better is unfounded. It very well might be the fact that it has been for the past 20-30 years, but that's just too short of a period of time to be meaningful, imo. The only reason why the establishments do nott have to resort to physical violence in Western countries is because there is no real social unrest, despite all the pathology, as people are relatively well off regardless.
As for the promotion of transvestitism, it's just one of the aspect of this whole "tolerance" agenda that the EU has, which also includes early sexualization of children. Poland has been pushed into delivering special gender-influenced activities, supposedly meant to promote "tolerance", where children were encouraged to cross-dress, with tutors asking boys "wouldn't it be fun to dress like a girl for some time?" (and vice versa) or "what would you think if your dad were to wear a dress? would you find it normal?" There was an uproar about this recently in Poland, because some parents protested in one kindergarten and their children got kicked out because there were no vacant places in the groups that did not follow that program.
*I meant kindergarten, not daycare in my earlier post.
On December 17 2013 07:20 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2013 07:06 zeo wrote:
The point is everybody should take off their rose-tinted glasses and mind their own buisness Serbians wanting the rest of the world to not look too closely at what a nation does to its people and its neighbours.
Britainians trying to push everyone around.
@Roman666
Are you, by any chance, from Warsaw? I have pretty good experiences with drivers from Wroclaw, where I am from.
@mcc
We were talking about the savage Estonia, remember?
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EPT
