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On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice.
Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it.
But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear.
So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap.
So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
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On July 28 2013 21:42 neptunusfisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 21:30 FuzzyJAM wrote:On July 28 2013 20:44 neptunusfisk wrote:On July 28 2013 20:01 eX Killy wrote:
why does it matter? casting isnt for everyone.
if theyre good they will rise, otherwise there's no need to promote mediocre (female, but also includes males if you think im being sexist) casters as anything else other than just mediocre casters. i'd rather ld cast than some random female talk on the mic. i'd also rather knowledgeable female casters cast over having to listen to tobi wan slurp na'vi, but we cant have everything we ask for.
if enough women competed at a higher level in general maybe as they retire we'd have more female casters, but if they cant reach that level of skill/influence/following then there's nothing wrong with getting faded out by the community just as men would. Please. Seriously? Of course we need more women in casting. The only time I've heard a female cast was Maddelisk in aftonbladets Esports-SM, which isn't a huge mainstream tournament. (It was in Swedish, only one match and only on their website.) She did a good job. The worst part is how women only get to ask silly questions to the winners of various games, wait for their answer and then, well, back to the real hosts (that are male and wear three times as much clothing)! But, of course it won't happen since "the scene" is a misogynistic craphole. "Of course"? Why? If women want to get involved, great. If they don't, ok. The reason there are no female casters is pretty simple: women make up a tiny proportion of eSports. Let's not pretend otherwise. You do perhaps believe women can't run business companies and that countries in africa are poor because they haven't tried enough? This kind of reasoning disgusts me.
wat
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On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote:
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ?
the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
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On July 30 2013 06:16 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote:
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water. No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ? the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50. At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
But it's not sexist because women are able to compete!@!!!1!
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On July 30 2013 06:16 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote:
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water. No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ? the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50. At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2.
Just because there is no written rules does not mean there are no unwritten rules. That's how bias works.
Just because MLG is not biased does not mean that the community is not biased (and vice versa)
Lets take Destiny as an example. He made disparaging remarks towards someone. His sponsors did not want to be associated with that, so they stopped supporting him. Does the sponsors not being supportive of destiny make Destiny's disparaging no longer disparaging?
No, of course not. What Destiny does and what his sponsors do are separate actions.
So, just because MLG doesn't mind women in their tournaments does not mean that the community is no longer misogynistic.
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On July 30 2013 06:21 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 06:16 shmget wrote:On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote:
Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water. No, it is not like that at all: you don't do 'lawyering' as a hobby in your free time... SC is a _game_. You acquire the skill with no career prospect, you start to play it because you enjoy it... a rare few that are very very good at it eventually consider that a 'carrer'... but no-one ever go to college wondering: humm what major will I take that can land me a good stable job... lawyer? Engineer ? IT ? SC2 pro-gramer ? the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50. At the end of the day: is there any SC2 tournament that refuse entry on the base of gender... oh wait, there is: it is called a 'woman-only tournament'... I guess you're right, there is sex-based discrimination in SC2. Just because there is no written rules does not mean there are no unwritten rules. That's how bias works. Just because MLG is not biased does not mean that the community is not biased (and vice versa) Lets take Destiny as an example. He made disparaging remarks towards someone. His sponsors did not want to be associated with that, so they stopped supporting him. Does the sponsors not being supportive of destiny make Destiny's disparaging no longer disparaging? No, of course not. What Destiny does and what his sponsors do are separate actions. So, just because MLG doesn't mind women in their tournaments does not mean that the community is no longer misogynistic.
Agreed, except I think it's more direct:
1. There are no female role models. A lack of top level females to emulate means less will enter since there is no one really to emulate or look up to.
2. The community has not yet reached the saturation of females where females are the norm. Whenever they enter, they get white-knighted or sexually harassed to death and, honestly, I'd be pretty sick of it. It's not helped by the female members of the community who are clearly attention whoring. I'd be pretty turned off by this attitude as well. If our community were even 30-40 percent female, I think this would change because people wouldn't be so shocked that someone not male is involved.
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the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50.
So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
Edit:
From a quick search on google, There is a good amount of debate on "why" that gender disparity exists much like we are having with "why so few women casters". Lack of passion isn't generally cited as the cause care to back up your assertion.
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On July 30 2013 06:37 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +the situation in IT is actually a good real-life full scale experiment: 40 years ago the profession was a marginal trade of mostly male geek passionate for the field... then the explosion of the Information age made IT front of center... and a lot of people starting to see IT as a good career move, a lot of them _started_ learning anything about in college... and this category (that I call IT for food -- by opposition as IT by passion) of people are indeed close to neutral wrt to gender distribution... but still to this day, when IT work is on a voluntary basis with few prospect to profit from it (like most open-source software project), the gender distribution is very, very far from 50/50. So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
Its just confirmation bias.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT, he assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
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It's a bad thread to make really....
If a caster is male, alright
If a caster is female, alright
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator.
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On July 30 2013 06:43 Gruntt wrote:
It's a bad thread to make really....
If a caster is male, alright
If a caster is female, alright
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator.
Isn't this "understood" knowledge the reason we are having this discussion?
Because someone like DJWheat, Khaldor, Catsinpajamas, etc.... can commentate without needing to be GM in Korea?
If we had the bar raised that you can't be a caster unless you were top 20 in Aligulac; then no one would complain about women not being present because most pro players wouldn't even qualify to be a caster.
But since you can be diamond and still cast then "skill" in the game is no longer a boundary. Yet, we still don't have women out there.
We know its not skill.
We know its not because they're not being given a chance (Milkes for example)
That leaves us with just one thing, it must be the reception they get from the community.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Or, that there aren't many pushing for casting gigs?
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The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
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On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
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On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right?
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
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On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch.
Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
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On July 30 2013 05:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:32 xuanzue wrote:On July 30 2013 05:24 dUTtrOACh wrote:On July 30 2013 05:17 xuanzue wrote:On July 30 2013 04:35 MstrJinbo wrote:On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them.... what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither A substantial number of women choose gender-neutral IDs, honestly how would you tell if lIIIlllI is male or female? You can't, if anything, you just assume they are male. On July 30 2013 03:55 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 03:53 xuanzue wrote:If a woman encounters a stone wall of sexism in her path to becomming a caster/player, let her speak out and namedrop them. I'm tired of having others do the speaking for them.... what is the wall in a path to diamond/master league? because I don't see many women there neither Does your SC2 client tell you what gender your opponent is? Because I don't think I have that feature on my client. that's the point. tell me now, why there are so few women playing starcraft on those levels, if they are not being harassed by sexism issues. You could ask the same thing for practically all games. let me tell you that I have seen girls playing fighters 18 years ago, FPS like CS 7 years ago or dota1. I played AOE in a PC bang in 2003-2006, and there were 0 women playing any time AOE, or BW or wc3. I say this genre is disliked by the woman, and i really doubt, it's because "sexism" it is because women don't like this genre in particular, maybe by cultural issues, or the male population has a freudian need of play RTS, than female don't have. so, if few women play starcraft, you will have few women casters or programmers. yeah, sexism is an issue to attack, but it's not the main reason to see that lack of female casters Thats like saying that women don't like science or law because you see more men in the field than woman. At one point every profession was dominated by men. So the evidence than "Yo, I haven't seen girls play these games, so that means they must not like them," doesn't hold a lot of water.
More white knighting.
Women are not casting/playing in competitive games because they are statistically inclined not to be competitive. It's basically the same reason why women are not in positions of power at businesses; most high profile jobs like the CEO position are taken up by men. A very large portion of this is due to the fact they are simply biologically inclined not to be as competitive as males are. So don't be surprised that in an immensely cut throat environment that women are not seen very often.
It has nothing to do with sexism; it has everything to do with the fact that in order to be successful in SC2, you already have to sacrifice a great deal. It's already an 'unfavorable' occupation to males who are already biologically inclined towards competitive atmospheres. Now think of it from your average woman's perspective, and you get exactly why Starcraft 2 seems unattractive. The 'sexist' attacks are just icing on the cake.
And I'm merely talking about SC2 from a professional standpoint. If we're talking about SC2 as a hobby, of course most women aren't going to give two shits about SC2.
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On July 30 2013 06:37 MstrJinbo wrote:
So you are taking the unequal gender distribution in open source development and are attributing it to "women are not passionate about IT and only in it for the paycheck"?
There is an equal number of men and women that are in it just for the pay check... no gender bias when it come to 'finding a job to feed yourself'
Google a bit further.. there are studies about this... that show that the more economical pressure the less gender disparity in field that have job oportunity... and the more luxury of choice, the more people tend to do what they 'like' rather than what is economically efficient, and the more you observe gender gaps (in both direction) in different profession.. google "norwegian gender equality paradox".
Edit:
From a quick search on google, There is a good amount of debate on "why" that gender disparity exists much like we are having with "why so few women casters".
Same fallacies from the same set of people yes... they just started at it earlier and stronger than with e-sport, because it is a bigger field and a bigger slice of the economy. They already started to rool-out what is euphemistically called 'affirmative-action' programs. iow introducing institutionalized sexual discrimination in field that was purely meritocratic.
Lack of passion isn't generally cited as the cause care to back up your assertion.
Estimated Proportion of female in the IT industry (for pay job)... about 30%
Estimated Proportion of female in Open Source Software volunteer (hobby, not for pay): 1-3%
QED
Note: Volunteer are self-selected... most of the time with little or no physical interaction with the rest of the volunteers.
It is also well documented that by large, patch contributions and review are gender-less... code has no gender and in most FLOSS project, code speak... in that regard is it like the SC2 ladder: Meritocratic.
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On July 30 2013 06:49 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 06:43 Gruntt wrote:
It's a bad thread to make really....
If a caster is male, alright
If a caster is female, alright
The only way to truly eliminate bias is for someone to ACTUALLY look at this situation and not think anything of it. Also, a lot of the male casters.... aren't exactly high level players ;P So that pretty much opens the door to anyone if we're giving the positions based on "merit."
Give me another caster with the game knowledge/experience of Artosis and I won't care if they're male, female, a man identifying as a woman, a woman identifying as a man, or basically any sexual situation they could be in. As long as they aren't overly obnoxious and they stick to the game with their experience, they're a top level commentator. Isn't this "understood" knowledge the reason we are having this discussion? Because someone like DJWheat, Khaldor, Catsinpajamas, etc.... can commentate without needing to be GM in Korea? If we had the bar raised that you can't be a caster unless you were top 20 in Aligulac; then no one would complain about women not being present because most pro players wouldn't even qualify to be a caster. But since you can be diamond and still cast then "skill" in the game is no longer a boundary. Yet, we still don't have women out there. We know its not skill. We know its not because they're not being given a chance (Milkes for example) That leaves us with just one thing, it must be the reception they get from the community.
I don't hear female casters when I tune into an NFL or MLB game, so don't know why people are making a big deal out of esports lacking female casters when sports millions of times bigger and more watched don't have them.
What if people are just more receptive to male voices? Moletrap was hated because he had a girl-like voice, and personally I find a male voice more relaxing and easier to listen to than a female's as the higher pitch of a female's voice tends to 'attack' my ears more than a male's.
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On July 30 2013 06:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 05:55 xuanzue wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. kelly milkes was hated by the same reason SNM is hated. but that is other issue. Did they hate SNM's accent, modes of speech, and voice the way they attacked Milkes'? Both Milkes and Moletrap were given the same commentary--voice problems. They were described as having a whiny voice and they were constantly attacked for it. Milkes being given the "I don't understand her" treatment while moletrap being harassed for no other reason than he seemed nerdier than wolf.
SNM has better enunication, but yes people do pick on him.
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Northern Ireland26223 Posts
Casters should have voices that aren't irritating.
Some people just don't have the voice for it, and are annoying to the ear. It's not being a dick to point that out
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EPT
