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Women will never be good at starcraft or know the Game. Women are mostly just not interested in competetive Games when they can play Casualgames like "The Sims" or "League of Casuals".
User was banned for this post.
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On July 30 2013 08:29 Plansix wrote:
I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd.
This always happens when bias is revealed in a community. Since the members of said community don't want to say that they are biased, they always create "arguments" that have never been made before but suddenly appear when their biases are shown to them.
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On July 30 2013 08:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it. Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL) This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history. Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them. That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
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On July 30 2013 08:30 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:29 Plansix wrote:
I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd. This always happens when bias is revealed in a community. Since the members of said community don't want to say that they are biased, they always create "arguments" that have never been made before but suddenly appear when their biases are shown to them.
I really want to go through and right them all down. Then time we have friends over for drinks I can break them out and say "Ok, ladies, here is a list of reasons why you don't want to cast Starcraft games. Are you ready to find something out about yourselves?"
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On July 30 2013 08:32 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it. Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL) This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history. Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them. That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't. I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles.
Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off.
"So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them."
You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
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On July 30 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:32 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 08:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it. Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL) This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history. Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them. That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't. I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles. Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off. "So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them." You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
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On July 28 2013 19:05 LiFTinG wrote:
Scarlett does have a Y chromosome actually
User was warned for this post
Lol, that was an obvious freudian slip from the OP by mentioning the term "Y chromosome" with that player's name in the same sentence.
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On July 30 2013 08:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
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On July 30 2013 08:58 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it. What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that?
When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
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On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
Uhmm... what ?
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On July 30 2013 08:41 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 08:32 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 08:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it. Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL) This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history. Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them. That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't. I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles. Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off. "So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them." You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?" Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different.
When the community chased off Milkes they did not chase away "all women casters" they simply chased off milkes. Milkes and Moletrap being lambasted for their voices is what happened. You knowing female casters without Milkes' or Moltrap's voice problems does not change what happened to Milkes and Moletrap.
You seem to think any comment brought up about Milkes is a comment for all women.
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On July 30 2013 08:17 Plansix wrote:
Its just the same age old argument of conformation bias:
"I don't see woman doing this "thing", therefor they much not like this "thing". Unless you provide me with overwhelming evidence that something is preventing them from join this "thing", I will assume that it because women don't like it. P.S. I will decided was evidence is sufficient evidence and disregard what evidence I don't like."
An alternate description is: I don't care. the gender distribution of the contributors of the project is irrelevant to me. I do not take irrelevant criteria into considerations. Our project is internet based, we have no way to even know what color, age, gender you really are and we do not care... If you bother to show-up and contribute good, if you don't, well, you're free to spend your free time as you see fit.
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On July 30 2013 09:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:58 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 08:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:
[quote]
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it. What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that? When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
Well one might argue that it is natural human behaviour to like deeper voices more in a context of commentating (basically sharing knowledge and pointing out things) or authority than effeminate.
I would think that in every culture a big man with a deep voice carries more authority than a small woman with a squeaky voice even if they say the same things.
I m not sure about the "casting voice stuff" but i m pretty sure about the authority.
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If any women were knowledgeable and passionate about the game they cast wanted a head casting position for any major tournament, I'd be down 100%, regardless of how she looked.
But the problem lies in the fact that there probably isn't a single woman alive dedicated enough to both the actual game and the casting position. God I can't tell you how many times I've heard sideline female reporters for gaming tourneys/events sounds SO fucking forced. It's aggravating and immediately makes me tune out of whatever she is saying.
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On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html
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On July 30 2013 09:22 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html
Read before you link . This article is talking about sex appeal towards men
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On July 30 2013 09:29 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:22 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:
[quote]
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html Read before you link . This article is talking about sex appeal towards men
It had also some implications in it, not just sex appeal.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8888727/Deep-voices-show-leadership.html
Here is another article.
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I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something?
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On July 30 2013 09:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:41 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 08:35 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 08:32 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 08:08 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:
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Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are.
Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it. Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL) This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history. Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them. That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't. I explained it several times already and I hate repeating myself. You keep missing the point. It has way more to it than gender though and that's why I called it a fully loaded gun. Another point missed: I wouldn't say she failed. I'd say GOM failed her and don't mix up different skill sets. I don't deny history lmao. Filter out the shit man and focus on the bare bones. In either case we're done here because this is going around in circles. Since you don't read what you're arguing against let me show you the last two sentences of my post that set you off. "So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them." You say that its more than just a gender thing. And, in the post you're arguing against, the person you are arguing against literally says "So maybe its a voice thing?" Oh I read it and I laughed at the manlier voice thing. You keep overlapping the two. I'm telling you to try and separate them lol. I know plenty of women sports casters who've done exceptionally well. I'm talking in general. They're all very well-spoken and their voices are different. When the community chased off Milkes they did not chase away "all women casters" they simply chased off milkes. Milkes and Moletrap being lambasted for their voices is what happened. You knowing female casters without Milkes' or Moltrap's voice problems does not change what happened to Milkes and Moletrap. You seem to think any comment brought up about Milkes is a comment for all women.
That's not what happened at all. I said separate articulation and voice because they aren't the same thing yet you continue to pick at the overlap. I've been saying ignore the sexism and other bullshit. If you cast you are going to be bombarded regardless. You try to make it sound like I wasn't there when I was deep in the trenches trying to get rid of the shit. I've heard it all bud. Don't think so? Check my filter.
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On July 30 2013 09:39 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:29 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 09:22 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html Read before you link . This article is talking about sex appeal towards men It had also some implications in it, not just sex appeal. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8888727/Deep-voices-show-leadership.htmlHere is another article.
LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list.
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EPT
