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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
On July 30 2013 09:41 levelping wrote:
I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something?
Can't say I agree.
This issue is too often treated, as indeed most issues of discrimination as an entirely one-directional phenomenon. The dominant group, in this case males and how they treat women who enter into the community. If women are under-represented, or are harshly treated within the community, it is usually posited that it is due to discriminatory views of the dominant grouping.
There is a willingness to blindly conform to this particular model and not properly look at other avenues worth exploring.
My own personal view is that sexism and gender dynamics is a more inter-linked, it's a relationship that is influenced by both sides of the occasion. How men view women is not based entirely upon an abstract ideal of women, but is influenced and reinforced by how women themselves portray themselves as a group.
This is not to place the ball in the court of women, and 'victim blame' them. It's an observation that however much you complain about being pigeonholed, if you willingly step into that pigeonhole and define yourself by its dimensions, then you're never going to be treated any differently.
For example, booth girls and glamorous hosts who utilise their sex appeal to get those jobs. I ascribe no moral judgement in doing so, but it's not exactly going to break gender stereotypes by conforming to them is it?
In the 'real world' it's more prevalent. For all that body image hangups are a huge thing, especially for women, the very forms of media that feed into that shared neurosis the most, the gossip magazine and celebrity culture are consumed primarily BY women.
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there are less female casters because there are less female players most likely. the chances are just less that one wishes to seek out this role after being into the game etc etc.
also does it matter? i personally found most of the female voices of this sc2 scene thus far grating/annoying (as well as a few of the male) and when casting its about your voice and not gender
these topics about "gay female bi" players are just so stupid they need to be banable. i dont care if someone is anything but a gamer im not sure why others do
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On July 30 2013 09:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:39 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:29 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 09:22 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:
[quote]
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html Read before you link . This article is talking about sex appeal towards men It had also some implications in it, not just sex appeal. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8888727/Deep-voices-show-leadership.htmlHere is another article. LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list.
Yeah and sexism is always at the top of the list, always without any exceptions. Because everybody is a bad sexist and hinders women in every aspect of the their lifes.
For me this whole thing is not so much about deep voices or any of that.
It is really hard to become a known caster these days, if have to put in a shitton of effort to make it to the top and be considered a good caster. Since a lot of the "big" casters build their image and popularity from the scratch of sc2.
These days you have to put in a shitton of effort to get into the casting scene like nathanias is doing right now, i m not saying that the casters that build their image from the start arent putting in a lot of effort, artosis and khaldor (!!) are prime examples of a really great work ethic.
A lot of casters also had a history in esports, as a caster or a progamer.
So if you play the numbers game on female vs males you also have to consider that most of the casters that are known right now also had a big history of esports in general which makes the numbers factors even bigger.
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On July 30 2013 09:56 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:41 levelping wrote:
I feel like this thread just proves the point that there is systemic sexism going on in the community.
From kitchen jokes to people who say truisms like"well if they are good they will be successful" without even trying to consider whether females have an equal starting point to get good without being stereotyped. Then we have the arguments from tortured logic where sexism is okay n because women use breasts to earn more money and men cant. And finally were now seeing weird pseudo science about deep voices et all.
Is this coming from like rejection by girls or insecurity or something? Can't say I agree. This issue is too often treated, as indeed most issues of discrimination as an entirely one-directional phenomenon. The dominant group, in this case males and how they treat women who enter into the community. If women are under-represented, or are harshly treated within the community, it is usually posited that it is due to discriminatory views of the dominant grouping. There is a willingness to blindly conform to this particular model and not properly look at other avenues worth exploring. My own personal view is that sexism and gender dynamics is a more inter-linked, it's a relationship that is influenced by both sides of the occasion. How men view women is not based entirely upon an abstract ideal of women, but is influenced and reinforced by how women themselves portray themselves as a group. This is not to place the ball in the court of women, and 'victim blame' them. It's an observation that however much you complain about being pigeonholed, if you willingly step into that pigeonhole and define yourself by its dimensions, then you're never going to be treated any differently. For example, booth girls and glamorous hosts who utilise their sex appeal to get those jobs. I ascribe no moral judgement in doing so, but it's not exactly going to break gender stereotypes by conforming to them is it? In the 'real world' it's more prevalent. For all that body image hangups are a huge thing, especially for women, the very forms of media that feed into that shared neurosis the most, the gossip magazine and celebrity culture are consumed primarily BY women.
Oh man, if you hate booth babes at much as I do, you should read this:
http://raygunbrown.com/stop-and-dont-come-back/2013/7/29/why-is-this-thing-still-a-thing
Here is the highlights on the topic:
"I don't care about the logistics or the decisions behind it. I don't care if this is just standard practice and it has always been done. I don't care if it is a proven sales technique. It has to stop. And not because I'm offended.
It has to stop because it is fucking boring.
It is a boring, lazy marketing technique. A relic of a bygone era. Something that should have been retired along with bellbottoms, smoking in hospitals and 'white' and 'coloured' drinking fountains. Are you selling underwear? Is your marketing strategy in place to promote what the women are wearing? No? Then you should be ashamed of yourselves and your lack of creativity.
I know it must be difficult for you. This is the way of things, you say. It's always been this way and you say customers expect it. In that case, leave and never come back. Go back to car or boat shows. Don't bring your tedium anywhere near such creative properties as video games. Video games deserve better. People interested in video games deserve better. It's bad enough that sexism is still a colossal problem in the video game industry. The last thing it needs is this outdated and moronic sales technique adding to it.
If you're still confused, I have an easy solution. If you have a product, promote the hell out of it. Tell me why it's awesome. Show me why you think it's worth the time you spent sweating over it and why you are so dedicated to it.
Don't you dare bring boobs into this. Don't try to deceive me with cheap and misguided arousal. This isn't an army base in the 1950's. I can get boobs at home. I don't need you trying to pathetically circumvent my genuine interest and pushing a marketing technique at me that has been around for several hundred years. More people are interested in video games in 2013 more than ever before. They are interested in video games, not your banal song-and-dance. Video games are exceedingly creative. You are not."
I love it to death, because it sums up exactly how I feel about the topic: How fucking dumb do you think I am? Do you really think this pretty girl in a bathing suit is going to make me buy your game? Cause its not. However, you are creeping out my girlfriend with this weird model girl asking me to come over so she can tell me stuff I don't care about and flash her boobs at me. So I think I will do anything else but talk with your booth babe.
As for female casters, I sure one will show up at some point and she will be awesome. The internet will treat her poorly, as it always does and we will be embarrassed at we always are.
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The female casters from WOL are all busy doing other things now. Kelly is busy with Alliance dota 2 team. Foxy is busy with her meltdown bars. The TL shoutcaster page is outdated cause I don't hear about many of them in list casting sc2 hots (edit: this goes for both man and woman casters.) Maybe some other ladies will give give it a go shoutcasting for hots. Just gotta wait and see. 
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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
Nice link Plansix, we seem to think similarly on such issues. Tbh I find the attitude of the community appallingly sexist, but in the other sense. I don't see the abuse really, as I don't delve into twitch or reddit, I do see the fawning sucking up that occurs towards many a female, and the lecherous comments every time an attractive girl appears at an event.
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its a constant battle between girls abusing the fact that they are girls vs the ones that complain about girls who do this making men take them less seriously
at the end of the day its idiots on both sides ruining it for everyone and this topic sucks
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Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategy
Like many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
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On July 30 2013 10:04 Sokrates wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 09:52 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 09:39 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:29 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 09:22 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 09:12 Acer.Scarlett` wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. Uhmm... what ? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/04/deep-voice-attractive_n_1183326.html Read before you link . This article is talking about sex appeal towards men It had also some implications in it, not just sex appeal. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8888727/Deep-voices-show-leadership.htmlHere is another article. LoL, the article has a picture of Margaret Thatcher on the front, who happens to be a woman. I don't think this is making the case why there are so many male casters. It is likely not a huge factor into peoples decision as to which caster they like. Or more importantly, it is very low on the list of reasons people like a specific caster over another, like the bottom of the list. Yeah and sexism is always at the top of the list, always without any exceptions. Because everybody is a bad sexist and hinders women in every aspect of the their lifes. For me this whole thing is not so much about deep voices or any of that. It is really hard to become a known caster these days, if have to put in a shitton of effort to make it to the top and be considered a good caster. Since a lot of the "big" casters build their image and popularity from the scratch of sc2. These days you have to put in a shitton of effort to get into the casting scene like nathanias is doing right now, i m not saying that the casters that build their image from the start arent putting in a lot of effort, artosis and khaldor (!!) are prime examples of a really great work ethic. A lot of casters also had a history in esports, as a caster or a progamer. So if you play the numbers game on female vs males you also have to consider that most of the casters that are known right now also had a big history of esports in general which makes the numbers factors even bigger.
Just because its not the number one reason doesn't mean it isn't real. I know guys out there that would like to think that SC2 and gaming isn't a misogynistic mess sometimes, but we kinda are. People can claim to the high heavens that it isn't an issue, but all those claims are disprove when a girl puts out a youtube video about girl stereotypes in video games and get rape threats in response.
Of course, there is this to make us all feel better(not a lot to do with gaming, but still having to do with the topic)
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On July 30 2013 09:10 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:58 Sokrates wrote:On July 30 2013 08:29 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:
[quote]
She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general. B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it. What is "western culture" for you? And if you say "western culture" it implies that in other cultures this is different. Do you have examples for that? When I say "western culture" I mean the culture I know and not the culture I don't. I won't try to pretend I know much about cultures that I am not a part of nor of cultures I have not extensively studied. By western culture I mean first world countries usually the northern Americas, Europe, and Japan as well as others. Other cultures might be worse off than western culture, but I don't think that the treatment of the feminine is something where we aim to not be last place.
Just to say, "Europe" doesn't have *a* culture, it has a bunch of very very different cultures (swedes and spaniards have almost nothing in common...). And Japan is very different from all of that...
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Also, if a girl wants to cast she can, and absolutely nothing will stop her from succeeding if she is good. Isn't that good enough?
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On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T
Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer.
So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
*Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
These threads always end up the same; we get one of these every few months. I'm sure you're not missing anything by skimming it.
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In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
Literally all of those people have been mentioned in the thread. Tara just made a thread in Blogs discussing women in E-sports more generally, and was interacting with people in there.
There are plenty of salient points in the thread, interesting avenues of discussion. Equally it's not just a 'why don't women cast' thread at all, but a more general discussion, including the 'why are women received poorly by many' discussion, in which case that's something in which male input more than female is probably actually useful.
I mean by all means come into a thread, skim it and leave, but don't get on your high horse while doing it.
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On July 30 2013 11:05 scDeluX wrote:
In the simplest, girls simply aren't interested in competitive gaming.
Demographic for competitive RTS are probably 99% 14-25yo mens.
You tell women what they are interested in and use math to do it. You go.
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On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc.
If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place.
The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
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League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
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On July 30 2013 11:30 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help. NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc. If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place. The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path.
but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters?
this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
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On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one?
It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
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EPT
