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On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
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On July 30 2013 11:55 Gr33n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:30 babylon wrote:On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help. NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc. If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place. The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path. but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters? this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is
And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
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On July 30 2013 11:58 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words. Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point.
If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:55 Gr33n wrote:On July 30 2013 11:30 babylon wrote:On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help. NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc. If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place. The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path. but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters? this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough.
You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former.
I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy.
For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance
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On July 30 2013 12:08 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 12:01 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:55 Gr33n wrote:On July 30 2013 11:30 babylon wrote:On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help. NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc. If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place. The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path. but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters? this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough. You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former. I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy. For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance
Yeah, well the guys will want to say "she is only popular because she has boobs" when the truth is that they are popular because they bust their ass making a broadcast people want to watch. Its the balance argument for streaming.
In game: I could win if "Terran/Protoss/Zerg" wasn't totally IMBA and my opponent didn't all in.
On Stream: I would have more viewers if I was a girl and dressed slutty.
But in reality, they can't admit they lost due to their own mistakes and no one wants to watch them because they are boring.
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On July 30 2013 12:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:58 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words. Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point. If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too...
This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored.
Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team."
Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife."
Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too...
But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently.
Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular...
We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay".
Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that...
They are alone in their struggle...
The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life.
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On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words.
It is unclear? Do you really want to tell us that LOL is a more mature community than the starcraft one? You have to be kidding me.
The LOL community is a perceived a lot more immature than the sc2 community if you go by memes or how they represent themselves. And now you are telling me they are less "sexist" than sc2?
A lot of people get the whole "esports" thing wrong imho. If you play a game you do it for fun in the first place and THEN you figure out that you are acutally good at it. And maybe THEN you decide to put in a lot of effort to become pro.
In the bnet nobody knows if you are female, male or whatever unless you decide to do so.
If you decide to be a caster this thing is a whole different story. But since you are very general here i try to be more specific.
On July 30 2013 12:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 12:08 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 30 2013 12:01 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:55 Gr33n wrote:On July 30 2013 11:30 babylon wrote:On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:On July 30 2013 10:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Listening to a female caster right now. " Zombie Girl" http://www.twitch.tv/sc2strategyLike many have said, the sexist attitude of the majority of people on twitch doesn't help. NNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH. I understand 'grub' can sound a lot like 'girl' but c'mon plz. T_T Anyway, this has dissolved exactly into every other thread that involves 'women' in the title, with I think some of the same people. I would've loved if we had seen a list of twitter/youtube/twitch casters but instead we get a debate on why women do what they do or do not by men. If the OP would really love to figure it out it might be better to tell him names and contacts of women who could give him a more experienced answer. So far mentioned: Zepph, Soe, some Maddelisk, and ZombieGrub. Additionally, Livinpink, Ninazerg, and Tara Babcock have all dabbled in casting and could also provide first-hand experiences in the why/why not. As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked. *Apologies to anyone who is continuing this discussion who is also actually female. I have been skimming and very well could have missed personal experiences/pronoun usage/etc. If you've ever stepped into a Reddit thread where a woman posts about her experiences and admits that she is, in fact, a woman, you'll notice that she is always downvoted for being "biased," and then guys jump all over her comment, saying, "Men have it harder in X, Y, Z!" as if the thread was about men's issues in the first place. The lack of perspective and female voice in the community is truly one of the most unfortunate things about these discussions, but when so few women are participating (and then the few who do participate are shut down), it's not a surprise to find these discussions always heading down the same path. but look the girls who ARE popular. mia rose, trade chat, geminee. whats the common denominator with these 3.... they are "attractive" (mia rose is... lets just leave at that) there are 20 dif streams of guys in challenger who get 2 viewers. lets face the facts that most girls dont play these games and the ones that do are popular for the wrong reasons. is it any wonder there are no female casters? this would be like a straight girl complaining about the lack of straight men in a female dominated profession or activity. women are not attracted to this type of game thats just how it is And then there are posts like this. If those are the three female gamers you can name, you're not trying hard enough. You can validate the 'negative' sexism (the abuse especially) by at least acknowledging the positive legup that being female can give you as a streamer/personality. Both are sexism to me, however the latter is much less criticised than the former. I don't particularly believe it's anything against men either, that some guys struggle to get double digit viewers, just a misconception about streaming numbers equating to any kind of meritocracy. For those that watch solely for gameplay chops (I am one), we have top level Koreans streaming all the time. Even the top ladder beasts outside of Korea won't measure up. Hence why you get streamers popular for other reasons, be they MaximusBlack or MsSpyte. It's unfair to single out the ladies in this instance Yeah, well the guys will want to say "she is only popular because she has boobs" when the truth is that they are popular because they bust their ass making a broadcast people want to watch. Its the balance argument for streaming. In game: I could win if "Terran/Protoss/Zerg" wasn't totally IMBA and my opponent didn't all in. On Stream: I would have more viewers if I was a girl and dressed slutty. But in reality, they can't admit they lost due to their own mistakes and no one wants to watch them because they are boring.
Sry but this is just plain bullshit. How the hell is this a one way street?
Ofc a girl playing a decent level will get a LOT MORE viewers than a guy at the same level that puts in the same amount of effort. You have to be blind to ignore that.
But that is also true for other aspects of the sc2 esports scene:
Foreigners or/and people on known clans will get a shitload more viewers than equally skilled or even a lot better skilled koreans will get. They also will get a shitload more money being on foreign teams.
Do you think idra, stephano, grubby etc. would get the same amount of viewers if they would be equally skilled koreans?
I dont think so.
Ofc you also have to put in a lot of effort, time and dedication but saying that they dont have any advantages over a korean is just dishonest.
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On July 30 2013 12:18 Rhaegal wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 12:07 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:58 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words. Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point. If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream. People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too... This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored. Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team." Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife." Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too... But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently. Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular... We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay". Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that... They are alone in their struggle... The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life.
I am going to point you back to this post right here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423028¤tpage=20#397
Where a guy discusses how he visits a thread on reddit where a woman talks about the difficulties of getting accepted by the community. In response the guys turn around and talk about how hard it is for them and dismiss her complaints as baseless. It is shockingly similar to the route you took this thread right now.
But I am sort of done with this discussion for now. I am not going to break through to any of the young men in this thread going: "Girls don't have it hard, let me tell you all about how its hard for me. Guys have all the same problems and girls are are just complaining about stuff that happens to everyone."
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Let's just accept the fact that tossgirl would've murdered 99.99% of us in brood war and move on from this thread!
I can't lie I'd love to see a girl stomp everyone's faces at the top level, but the only way to eliminate bias is to see it and not care either way 
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[ninazerg said] Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!"
To be fair the OP also asked specifically about whether the problem is sexism etc. But I too would much prefer the thread you and zombiegrub are wishing for.
On July 30 2013 03:52 Talin wrote:I'm going to be extremely vague here, but there was a really good caster for one either iccup/esv or glhf.tv back in 2011ish. I used to mention her every time female players/casters were talked about, but her name eludes me now. She had a really good voice, and was quite knowledgeable about the game, very confident and easy to listen to. It's unfortunate that she received very little attention, she was genuinely better than a number of male casters that rose to some prominence later on. Edit: Elaine Sun!
thanks talin I never heard her before
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On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic)
Because small pool of women interested in SC2 or esports in the first place.
From eyeballing, there's more female players in Counter-Strike in Singapore than the entire eSports community combined. And maybe LoL.
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Northern Ireland23827 Posts
On July 30 2013 12:53 EatThePath wrote:Show nested quote +[ninazerg said] Anyhow, this thread has turned into a shithole because everyone is talking about Scarlett, and not talking about ZombieGrub, who is a really good caster, and even casted some of the MLG group matches. Then it turns into "This is the way society is hur hur" vs "Society can change!!!" and we're talking about some irrelevant social issues that easily could be sidestepped just by saying "Hey, it doesn't matter if you're male or female, black or white, if you're a good caster, welcome aboard!" To be fair the OP also asked specifically about whether the problem is sexism etc. But I too would much prefer the thread you and zombiegrub are wishing for. Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 03:52 Talin wrote:I'm going to be extremely vague here, but there was a really good caster for one either iccup/esv or glhf.tv back in 2011ish. I used to mention her every time female players/casters were talked about, but her name eludes me now. She had a really good voice, and was quite knowledgeable about the game, very confident and easy to listen to. It's unfortunate that she received very little attention, she was genuinely better than a number of male casters that rose to some prominence later on. Edit: Elaine Sun! thanks talin I never heard her before
She has a glorious voice for casting, at least by my tastes. Quite impressed with that link, shame that she exited the scene/never came to prominence.
It is hard as fuck to break into a casting gig, no matter how good you are it's up to other people to give you that opportunity. I've long felt that it's too closed a shop, regardless of the issue in the OP and there should be more exposure of unknown casters via 'casting searches' and stuff like that.
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On July 30 2013 12:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 12:18 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 12:07 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:58 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words. Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point. If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream. People complained about the cannon rusher on stream too... This is the part I can't stand about the feminist arguments. Men go through the SAME shit, and it's always ignored. Maximus Black? "he's terrible, why's he on Quantic, why are they streaming his game, boy I wish I was black so I could get on a pro team." Incontrol? "Lol, so fat. NA GM. He's not a pro gamer. How'd he get such a hot wife." Things like this have been said about almost every player. They are insulted in every twitch chat and Reddit thread too... But no.. it's only an issue when it happens to females, those poor things, apparently. Same reason I get pissed when women make the argument about beautiful women in the media. Like the guys in movies and commercials aren't hot as hell and muscular... We go through the same shit. A girl can't get an IT job as easily? Ok, cool, tell me how easy it is for me to get a babysitting job, when most women will be uncomfortable leaving their kid with me, or go into nursing where every guy will question my masculinity and call me "gay". Women commit domestic violence as much as men, but don't tell them that... They are alone in their struggle... The world is fucked up... a bad place for both sexes. Suck it up-- that's life. I am going to point you back to this post right here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423028¤tpage=20#397Where a guy discusses how he visits a thread on reddit where a woman talks about the difficulties of getting accepted by the community. In response the guys turn around and talk about how hard it is for them and dismiss her complaints as baseless. It is shockingly similar to the route you took this thread right now. But I am sort of done with this discussion for now. I am not going to break through to any of the young men in this thread going: "Girls don't have it hard, let me tell you all about how its hard for me. Guys have all the same problems and girls are are just complaining about stuff that happens to everyone."
That's pretty much because they are. Females have a more extreme case, but it can be used to their own advantage. Tara Babcock and Mia Rose are perfect examples of said females using 'increased attention' to their advantage. When have the potential to use your own gender to your own advantage (and please don't say they can't, because they can and they do all the time), you are subject to increased criticism because you have the ability to increase your own popularity far above what the average male player/personality can, simply because of the fact that they are 'female.'
This is by no means an excuse for the insults hurled at them, but to expect to have all the benefits of increased attention due to gender without accepting the negatives is hilarious.
And before you go spouting nonsense how I'm wrong, how I'm a young man and immature, etc. that's essentially what Tara Babcock said in some of her youtube videos about women in E-Sports in general. Women will get increased attention in E-Sports because they are rare, and as such, they need to be ready to deal with the increased criticism/trolling/hate that will come with said increased attention.
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On July 30 2013 10:55 ZombieGrub wrote:
As for why they don't (or any girls) 'just come in and tell us themselves in this thread', it could be they simply don't feel comfortable entering into a discussion that is so driven by men speaking for us. Or they just don't see/care, but nonetheless might be more open about answering on a one-on-one situation where they feel they won't be attacked.
This comment here highlights what I feel to be one the biggest problems with having these types of debates.
You see a whole lot of dudes arguing back and forth, flinging labels at each other like "Sexist Misogynist" if they figure one set of reasons and "White Knight" if they've deduced an opposing set of reasons, with the girls on the sidelines wondering when the fuck they get to talk.
You've posted, I think, twice in this thread offering just a tiny bit of insight into your own experience, and it's damn shame we can't have more of that from the women who have to actually deal with this shit. I would love to hear from women who have tried to get into the job and failed/succeeded, and have them share with us what variables they hold responsible for their failure/success.
At the end of the day, OP is probably asking the wrong set of questions. I believe the question to be asked here, if there is a genuine interest in the subject should be: "Hey guys, I'm interested in the distribution (lack thereof) of female casters and personalities in E-Sports. How can I get in touch with some of the more well-known women in E-Sports? Also, if you're a woman who's tried breaking into the scene, I'd love to hear about your experience as well, please contact me via: whiteknightprogamer@sexistmysogynist.com if you'd be interested in answering some of my questions!"
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On July 29 2013 04:15 Ry2D2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 03:43 DeathProfessor wrote:
I would love Blizzard taking a chance on a female caster for WCS, they have a capability to be more personable than males, they could make casting more warm and friendly.
My dream is that SOE cast! Please do it SOE! Actually, didn't soe cast WCS some last year with Grubby and Kaelaris? Not hte finals anywhere but the national events that they went all over doing.
She did cast with us, as well as her and I doing the WCS Spain alone. However, now she's far more heavily involved in the DotA scene now.
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On July 30 2013 12:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 11:58 Rhaegal wrote:On July 30 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 30 2013 11:40 Rhaegal wrote:
League of Legends and WoW have a huge female playerbase, and it's one of the reasons those are the two biggest games on the market. Are you saying those games and communities are less "sexist" than this one? It is unclear. I would say that LoL is generally more accepting of female gamers(though they still deal with the same issues) and doesn't seem to have a huge problem that some of those female players are very good at the game(maybe not pro, but not everyone is a pro). SC2 has this weird hang up on when it comes to female players and always want them to pass the "test" to see if they are worthy of being a "featured stream" or "worth covering in a match". The instant Flo gets put on a stream at one of the next MLGs, there will be a full blown discussion if Flo "deserved" to be on the stream, mark my words. Master league players are bad and shouldn't be on an MLG stream, male or female. People said the same shit about Maximus Black and Tumescentpie... I don't understand your point. If she was playing against was on a sick run, she could be featured on stream. The point is that if she ever did well at MLG, there would be an endless and stupid debate on why or why not she should be on stream. That is the point though, we will put a cannon rusher on stream as long as he beats Coach Park. But put one girl up and its a huge issue about masters players being featured on Stream.
We talked shit about ailuj being on MLG stream vs Losira, playing a joke of a game.
We were impressed with that platinum protoss guy who almost took a game off Parting (might be off on the name there).
The difference at the end was results and the quality of game that was showed.
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I wouldn't wanna hear a women casting my starcraft .
Smix does good at what she does (although she nods her head a hell of a lot)
Rachael does a good job of pretending to enjoy what she does.
But no , I don't wanna hear a women cast unless they have been taking steroids for breakfast.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 30 2013 15:12 MrSourGit wrote:
I wouldn't wanna hear a women casting my starcraft .
Smix does good at what she does (although she nods her head a hell of a lot)
Rachael does a good job of pretending to enjoy what she does.
But no , I don't wanna hear a women cast unless they have been taking steroids for breakfast.
I have to ask myself if you would have the balls to say this in public or to your own mother.
But nevertheless, hilarious, but only because I find sexist jokes funny. Sad for me.
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On July 30 2013 15:51 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 15:12 MrSourGit wrote:
I wouldn't wanna hear a women casting my starcraft .
Smix does good at what she does (although she nods her head a hell of a lot)
Rachael does a good job of pretending to enjoy what she does.
But no , I don't wanna hear a women cast unless they have been taking steroids for breakfast. I have to ask myself if you would have the balls to say this in public or to your own mother. But nevertheless, hilarious, but only because I find sexist jokes funny. Sad for me.
Is preferring a deeper voice sexist?
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people who are talking about aujlie or wahtever her name is, where is she now lol. she quit at diamond league i think but she was "on a team" they "wanted her on the team".
most "girl gamers" i see are pretenders
the problem will always be that if you are not good, you will not be accepted. when i went to basketball camp i had been playing AAU since i was old enough, we won states 2 years in a row and i was good, naturally i was automatically accepted by my peers at these camps but my friend who was not very good, clearly did not fit in as well as me.
this is life. is it unfair? sure but thats how it is. when girl gamers start to win tournys and they STILL give her shit, then we can revisit such topics. im fairly sure no one shit talks flo but im 100 percent sure they shittalk kellymilkies, ajuile, and lauren elise. they are not doing it because they are women, they are doing it because they are pretenders and get attention because they are 1 girl in a room of 1000 guys no matter how little they care about the game or how bad they are
when you are in an area for a long time with 0 women and randomly one shows up, no matter how unattractive the offer is it becomes better over time.
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EPT
