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On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote:
The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
Yes, which is why we have a threat questioning how the community sees women in games...
A thread that is judging the "eyeballs" as you call it.
MLG doesn't care, GOM doesn't care.
"Eyeballs" aren't watching women. Conclusions that can be made are either that women don't want it bad enough, or eyeballs judge women's product differently than they judge Sean's product.
In defense of Sean, his product works because he does a stream for hours and hours a day 5-7 days a week depending on if he's casting a tournament or not. But people also respect his talent and skills as a player which made them drawn to his show in the first place (as well as his humor, delivery, etc..). He built his base with blood sweat and tears.
Same with bitter
Same with DjWheat
etc...
But before they got big, they needed to wade into the waters first. They needed to jump in and see if they had a product that people liked. It is in this starting space that the community's bias is called into question. Is it harder to be taken seriously as a female caster just starting out compared to being a male caster just starting out.
Some people will say that the female caster's looks will pull in more viewers. But that doesn't get you taken seriously. That doesn't get you an invite to MLG or GOM. That simply gets you more reddit fans you thumbs up your chest. At best you become like Destiny; tonnes of viewers on your stream but unable to produce actual results.
(In fairness, Idra became the same thing)
The problem is not from "eSports" being against women or MLG or GSL, etc...
The problem being presented is that the so called "eyeballs" don't respect the product when gender gets thrown into the mix. [case example, Scarlett]
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On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap....
And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
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On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender.
Fully loaded?
I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
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On July 30 2013 07:23 Nerski wrote:
The simple answer to this...there hasn't been a lot of female commentators who managed to build a huge audience allowing them to be wanted by events to cast.
Some math for you that's really easy to understand so you get the why better.
If your options for say MLG....Sean, who has a following of will say based even half of twitter followers a good 50k+ fans. Your other option is random female X who has maybe tried to build a following but has maybe 10k fans.
Considering your sponsorship #'s & opportunities are largely dictated by eyeballs who are you going to choose?
When more females draw those kinds of followings leagues will gladly feature them.
It's the same kind of math that leads to personalities tending to get paid more in esports then the players. # of eyeballs you draw = money in your pocket.
As comparison. A female sc2 personality and caster Livinpink has almost 8600 followers. Nathanias(an excellent caster in my opinion) has less than half that at under 4000. Axeltoss has 5000. SNM has just under 1000. Consider that there might be more to being a caster than having a lot of twitter followers.
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On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s
I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems).
I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises.
The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
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Northern Ireland25050 Posts
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
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On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast?
I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems)
I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much.
Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
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to the people talking about women not haing "merit" to do a casting job, tahts false. Threr are proffesional female, and male athletes. Look at just about any sport in the world, you have a female league, and a male league. Why? because Men are just better at most of the events than the women are. Its a harsh thing to say, but its reality. Look at basicaly any professional sport, and look at the male, vs female games. No one will honestly say that the females could compete with the males is the majority of the sports.
Quick example. Snowboarding. Go look at the mens 1/2 pipe competition, and look at their smallest trick. it will probably be something like a 1080, or a 1260. Now go to the womens side, their Biggest trick will be a 1080 maybe a 1260, and only a couple women in the entire world can do that.
That being said, that is probably one of the main reasons you don't see many female casters, its because the men that were doing those same activity are probably just better/were better at them and have better experience.
Weather thats right or wrong? who knows.....
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On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded?
I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand.
On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects."
and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
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On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap.
So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense?
Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_<
I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
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I was really impressed by Smix in her latest event as a translator and host. Probably the most professional ive ever seen in this community. I think she has the knowledge to cast, she would do great if that were her focus. But this community is kinda harsh though, unless you are a god like day9 or tastosis then ........
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On July 30 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Its just confirmation bias.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT,
I see plenty of women in IT...
What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project...
and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures...
If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked...
and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people.
He assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void.
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Northern Ireland25050 Posts
On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
That articulates why I queried your last post Magpie. I might have gotten the wrong idea though
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On July 30 2013 07:57 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:35 StarStruck wrote:On July 30 2013 06:15 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 06:04 maartendq wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Moletrap's voice is just annoying to listen to. Additionally, he is not nearly as good a caster as tasteless and artosis are. Although Moletrap isn't as funny, I do love his enthusiasm. I feel like he and Khaldor would be a great team if it wasn't for Moletrap's voice. Milkes had similar problems and she was derided for it. But the reason I wanted bring up Milkes is to show that GOM *has* tried to bring in women casters. Women are being brought in from the sidelines all the time. They get the wrong attention more often than not and they eventually disappear. So I know that its not a case of companies not wanting women casters/non-casters. I also know that there *are* women casters out there and if someone like Moletrap can get caster gigs I'm certain that there are women out there at least better than Moletrap. So I wouldn't say that its purely because there aren't women casters. There are very few of them, but non-existent would be a stretch. Sorry bud but they aren't similar at all. I thought I already debunked this myth earlier in the thread. I wouldn't really call that trying and she was ill-equipped for the job to begin with because of her enunciation more than anything else. That was the real problem and then you add in all the other bullshit. It's fully loaded. There are plenty of women doing just fine in the gaming industry even if it's male dominated. I would drop the comparisons though between Moletrap because that is a different can of worms and it goes beyond gender. Fully loaded? I said that people had a problem with her voice much like they had a problem with Moletrap's voice--how is that loaded? I thought I was pretty clear. Enunciation is not the same thing as voice. Being able to articulate your ideas clearly is different from having a irritating voice. You either have the skill set or you don't. Here's a separate thought for you: you could be the most knowledgeable player on the face of the earth but that doesn't necessarily mean you will be a great broadcaster if you cannot articulate your ideas clearly to your audience. You wouldn't get hired. Moletrap is a different case. Stop trying to compare the two; it's a fool's errand. Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:54 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:51 Wombat_NI wrote:
Or you know, maybe people who don't have pleasing voices to the ear SHOULDN'T cast? I don't know who you are arguing with. I'm assuming its me (because I brought up Milkes and Moletrap having voice problems) I have not defended either. They both have annoying voices. As I said, I would love to have Moletrap and Khaldor casting together--but I hate Moletrap's voice too much. Milkes was brought up to show that tournaments have tried bringing in female casters, but money only goes to the people the community "respects." and we're telling you it's a bad example because she shouldn't have been hired by GOM to begin with. Why? As I said many times before, she didn't have the proper skill set. Stop latching onto one thing because there are many success stories in the biz where women are doing their thing and they're happy to be apart of it.
Neither her nor Moletrap had the proper skill set; neither should have been hired. She might have had a more foreign voice, but moletrap also had problematic speech patterns and ridiculous squeals. Both were about as wrong as the other in their readings of the game (although in their defense, they were about as accurate as Tasteless was during the first two years of GSL)
This should all be very clear in my first post wherein I stated that Gom tried to hire a female caster and she was attacked by the community, and then amended that by showing that the community treated a male caster in a similar fashion. I do not understand your vehement denial of recent history.
Gom tried a female caster, she failed. She failed for the same reasons Moletrap failed. Gom won't risk putting in people who sound/speak like them again because of that failure. Why did they fail? Because they community did not like them.
That is what was said. You keep thinking some kind of agenda is present that isn't.
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On July 30 2013 08:05 shmget wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Its just confirmation bias.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT, I see plenty of women in IT... What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project... and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures... If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked... and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people. Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void.
The assumption you are making is that only people who volunteer for Open software development are passionate about IT. Everyone else is just in it for the money.
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On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination.
Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it...
Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them.
Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice."
So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?"
Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing").
So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
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On July 30 2013 08:12 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:05 shmget wrote:On July 30 2013 06:40 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Its just confirmation bias.
He presumes women don't like IT. So when he doesn't see women in IT, I see plenty of women in IT... What I do not see is plenty of woman _volunteering_ in Open Source Software project... and an overwhelming majority of people in these project do not give a rat's ass about whether you are tall or short, fat or skinny, a teenager or a senior... most of interaction is via email and IRC. no video, no pictures... If you produce useful code/tests/doc etc... you're welcomed, no irrelevant questions asked... and no, in these circles we don't have 'nice tits' remarks... for one thing you have no idea how nice the tits are or even if there are any... It is structurally and philosophically as gender blind as you can get in this world... and yet the numbers are there. The _one_ thing these projects cannot do is force people to participate, and lobby cannot pressure them to 'hire' more people based on attributes irrelevant to the task at hand... because these projects do not _hire_ people.
He assumes its because they don't like it and not outside factors.
Since I did not make such 'assumption', any reasons you may ascribed to it is void. The assumption you are making is that only people who volunteer for Open software development are passionate about IT. Everyone else is just in it for the money.
Its just the same age old argument of conformation bias:
"I don't see woman doing this "thing", therefor they much not like this "thing". Unless you provide me with overwhelming evidence that something is preventing them from join this "thing", I will assume that it because women don't like it. P.S. I will decided was evidence is sufficient evidence and disregard what evidence I don't like."
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On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Show nested quote +Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me.
So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a generalization on.
But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of
a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports
b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
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On July 30 2013 08:22 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2013 08:17 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:59 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:45 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 07:32 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 30 2013 07:26 Vorenius wrote:On July 30 2013 05:53 Thieving Magpie wrote:On July 28 2013 18:46 Quincel wrote:Morning all, I've just been watching some BasetradeTV streaming of the Masters Cup, and I suddenly realised that something was different. For the first time I can remember the casting duo was one man and one woman. Now I'm not a super-fan, I don't watch that many streams, but I do watch a good 10 or so hours of SC each week and I catch most of the premier level events. So the fact that I haven't noticed a single female caster seems odd and concerning to me, I certainly couldn't name one even if I have heard them (unlike the 10 or so male casters I could name with ease, the big names in eSports). Now we know that gaming tends to be male dominated, other than Scarlett and Maddelisk there is almost no-one without a Y chromosome at big tournaments*, but figures also show that there aren't that many more male gamers than women overall**. So put simply, where are the women in eSports, and where are the female casters more specifically? I want to be very clear, I'm not accusing anyone or everyone of latent sexism. I honestly don't know the answer to this. I've seen a few comments about this issue in other threads recently, so I thought I'd make a topic and see if people had any ideas. Where are the female casters, and (if necessary) how would we go about finding more of them? (*Technically this is incorrect, as I've just discovered. Apologies if my choice of shorthand was inappropriate.) (**see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic) Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back. In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. She had an accent that made her hard to understand and she was incredibly akward with her co-commentators. She didn't get treated worse than other casters that people didn't like. If anything treating her equal should be a good thing right? Which is why I compared her to Moletrap.... And in your next post you concluded that females are lacking because of the reception they get. The reception that (according to the evidence you've presented) is identical to what men would face. :s I was pointing out that Moletrap and Milkes got chased off for the same reasons (voice problems). I then pointed out that GOM tried to bring in a woman caster and MLG regularly brings in women with Mikes on their stages as well. Women are given roles in esports by establishments, so its not like they're being shoved away by esport enterprises. The only thing keeping women away is the treatment they get and the types of attention they receive. The "viewership" that chases away people with girly/sharp voices like Milkes and Moletrap. So now you are grouping moletrap with female casters? How does that make any sense? Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation? >_< I would think being judged by your ability would be desirable. If you can't talk wihtout annoying the audience you won't succeed. That has nothing to do with sexism or any other discrimination. Since you didn't read my post that started this... let me repeat it... Gom tried a female caster for Code A early on in the GSL. Lots of hate popped up on TL against her. Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back.
In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice. So maybe its a voice thing? The manlier the voice, the more the gaming community likes them. Wherein I say that " Not trying to say that TL was being a sexist, just saying that the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators" and follow that up by saying "In defense of TL, the community also made fun of Moletrap; probably because he didn't have a manly enough voice." So I don't know why you would say "Are you seriously accusing the comminuty of not wanting to listen to people with annoying voices? How is that a revelation?" when my initial comment was that "So maybe its a voice thing?" Gathered together I said that Gom hired a woman, the community chased her out, for the same reasons as a male caster, so maybe its a voice thing (which implicitly means I'm also saying "instead of a woman thing"). So, once again, I don't know why you're arguing with me. So when you say "the establishment has tried having women casters/commentators but the community usually makes fun of them and they don't come back." it's based solely on Kelly Milkes? That seems a shaky foundation to build a conclusion on. But if you aren't arguing that females are being treated differently than males, does that mean we agree that it isn't discrimination scaring away female casters, but it's a combination of a) a numbers game; more men than women in esports b) physical difference; deeper voices are more appealing in general.
I only half agree with B and disagree with A.
A assumes there is no bias that exists with the systems and that it naturally leans towards a male domination; I disagree. Although I do agree with the results of there being less women out there, I disagree that the lopsidedness of the numbers is natural and normal.
B extends from our respect towards the masculine. We dislike soft voices because they sound weak and effeminate. Which is why Khaldor's deep accent voice sounds bad-ass and why Moletrap's squeaky accent sounds pathetic. But that's a problem I have with Western culture more than I have with SC2; it's western culture that created that distinction not the nerd culture and so I can't blame the "eSports community" on it.
What I do agree with is that tournament organizers are not misogynistic nor are tournament organizers preventing women from being able to do well; that responsibility rests solely on the way the internet and the gaming community acts around women.
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I think the best part of this thread is all the reasons people come up with as to why there are no female casters that go beyond the normal ones. The whole voice argument is truly entertaining and that gamer prefer a lower voice has taken the cake. I really hope that the next one is that women have difficultly speaking quickly in front of cameras or something equally absurd.
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EPT
