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On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel.
You just categorically defined millions of people as "prone to terror"
Somewhere in Tel Aviv, Netanyahu got a half chub.
If I were Palestinian and I thought Americans thought as you do, I'd be anti-American too. That's why calling you out on your AIPAC-Bannon lip service is the right thing to do.
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On December 19 2017 06:32 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel. I would bet you all the money in the world if we supported Palestine how we support Isreal, Palestine would be pro american out the ass
....and then the Israelis would hate us. Like I said, Palestine and Israel are clearly mutually exclusive. We have to pick a side. Picking Israel is very clearly the right choice.
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On December 19 2017 06:32 LegalLord wrote:
Let the world continue with their fixation upon sticking it to Israel while pretending it is borne of noble intentions. I'm glad the US finally did the right thing with this Jerusalem matter.
Why do you characterize it in this way?
I'm not anti-Israel at all, but its legitimate to question the validity of showing up in someone else's country and brutalizing the population.
Of course, with your political allegiances and the recent Crimea thing I can see why you wouldn't mind that kind of thing.
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On December 19 2017 06:32 LegalLord wrote:
Let the world continue with their fixation upon sticking it to Israel while pretending it is borne of noble intentions. I'm glad the US finally did the right thing with this Jerusalem matter.
why? the US did the wron gthing; I assume, as with the others, you don' have an actual sonud point, merely a hate-based opinion?
especially seeing as the US action here has nothin gto do with noble intentions and everything to do with politicking.
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And there it is again, "clearly mutually exclusive" as though this spiel isn't straight Likud party sycophancy.
Lol.
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On December 19 2017 06:33 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:32 IyMoon wrote:On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel. I would bet you all the money in the world if we supported Palestine how we support Isreal, Palestine would be pro american out the ass ....and then the Israelis would hate us. Like I said, Palestine and Israel are clearly mutually exclusive. We have to pick a side. Picking Israel is very clearly the right choice.
Why? Not arguing it isn't I just don't see why picking one side over the other in this instance is good for us. Whoever we support would like us and Isreal has the great effect of pissing off everyone else. Would it not stand to reason that if we supported Palestine the rest of the region would see this as a good thing and would increase their view of the US? Seems to be if we are going with getting influence in the region supporting Isreal is the lowest output there
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On December 19 2017 06:30 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:17 Nebuchad wrote:On December 19 2017 06:05 m4ini wrote:On December 19 2017 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 05:59 Doodsmack wrote:On December 19 2017 05:56 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 05:52 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 05:50 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 05:40 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/18/us-outnumbered-14-to-1-as-it-vetoes-un-vote-on-status-of-jerusalemA UN security council resolution calling for the withdrawal of Donald Trump’s recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital has been backed by every council member except the US, which used its veto.
The unanimity of the rest of the council was a stark rebuke to the Trump administration over its unilateral move earlier this month, which upended decades of international consensus.
The Egyptian-drafted resolution did not specifically mention the US or Trump but expressed “deep regret at recent decisions concerning the status of Jerusalem”.
A spokesman for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, responded to the veto by saying it was “unacceptable and threatens the stability of the international community because it disrespects it”.
The UK and France had indicated in advance that they would would back the text, which demanded that all countries comply with pre-existing UNSC resolutions on Jerusalem, dating back to 1967, including requirements that the city’s final status be decided in direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians.
The resolution was denounced in furious language by the US ambassador to the UN, Nikki Haley, who described it as “an insult” that would not be forgotten. “The United States will not be told by any country where we can put our embassy,” she said.
“It’s scandalous to say we are putting back peace efforts,” she added. “The fact that this veto is being done in defence of American sovereignty and in defence of America’s role in the Middle East peace process is not a source of embarrassment for us; it should be an embarrassment to the remainder of the security council.”
The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, tweeted: “Thank you, Ambassador Haley. On Hanukkah, you spoke like a Maccabi. You lit a candle of truth. You dispel the darkness. One defeated the many. Truth defeated lies. Thank you, President Trump.” If you're in the Trump administration, every country in the world can tell you you're wrong and you just have to shout FAKE NEWS at the top of your voice to make yourself right. Trump doesn't need to yell "FAKE NEWS." He just has to yell "FUCK OFF," which he very clearly is doing. He's the first president who is bright enough to realize that it is not in America's interest to placate Palestine and the Arab states on this. Kudos to him. do you have any actual plan to address the situation? Yep, let Israel win. Take note of the more extreme views that trump supporters hold, which they probably didn’t hold before Trump, because the only way to square Trump with one’s world view is to adopt more extreme views on western civilization. This isn’t a new view of mine. I have explained it in detail over the years in this thread. The bottom line is that Israel and Palestine will never peacefully coexist, so we should unequivocally support Israel. And create thousands of terrorists in the process for the next centuries to come. I'm not sure that's a negative for xDaunt. It's DEFINITELY not. An actual terrorism threat justifies continued military expansion and intervention, and more "safety focused" authoritarian governance at home. It's nebulousness and lack of real nation-threatening potential arguably makes a strong terrorism threat even BETTER than an actual war for such an administration. 2 minutes of people who once lived in a place that used to be Palestine blowing up US civilian cars on Fox every day is the literal best outcome from a certain perspective. So much easier to manufacture hate and fear when you don't have to spend a dime or day on the dirty work yourself.
It's still important to point it out cause the Daunt will typically cloud what he's saying in stuff like "we" or "America", when he's defending specific behaviors that are consistent only with his very own beliefs and politics. See above, there's no way Palestine would ever support America so we can't do shit about it; well yeah of course there's a way, but America would have to change, and be less like he wants it to be and more like I would want it to be. But of course xDaunt doesn't want it framed that way, so instead he'll say "America".
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On December 19 2017 06:32 farvacola wrote:
You just categorically defined millions of people as "prone to terror"
Somewhere in Tel Aviv, Netanyahu got a half chub.
Facts are facts. You can't hide what the PLO and Hamas have done over the years. And whether those actions were "justified" is quite irrelevant.
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On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel.
Israel is supported by the big christian population in the US mainly for religeous reasons, and therefore Israel can get away with everything. In other western countries, the Palestinians have more support, as they are the oppressed underdogs in the conflict.
Also, be careful about overestimating Trump's symbolic recognicion of Jerusalem. There is no international support for his action, and actually does not matter much.
The US supports Israel? No shit Sherlock!
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On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are generally a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months.
Not all, no. Most people from every culture simply want to build a better life for their children. That includes the Palestinians.
However, there is a violent sect within the Palestinian people, including their current leadership of Hamas, that will never accept peace. They will twist the minds of the young to continue the war. They will continue to fire rockets and set off bombs. No matter what Israel does, the terrorists will incite war until all the Israelis are dead.
Even if all the terrorists were removed from Palestine, outside agitators will continue the war and develop new recruits. It’s the harsh reality of the Middle East. “Experts” do what they can to slow the growth of terrorism, but they do nothing to push it back because pushing it back means taking the fight to them. It means the deaths of innocent people who get caught up in it. In the short term, it even means more recruits to the terrorist cause. However, if you ever want peace in the Middle East, it only becomes a reality as a reaction to a terrible war.
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I like that Xdaunt is pretty quite in the politics thread until the topic of Israel comes up and he can jump in with his “Fuck yeah, holy war. Lets do this” world views. He would have been all about the trail of tears.
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there's also yet to be provided any reason what we gain from supporting israel "100%" (not that supportin gyour friends doing evil things is something you should do anyways) and supporting israel 99%. israel needs us more than we need them; we'll get what we want from them whether we support them 99 or 100%; why not go 99% and use that other 1% to gain a bit of support/muddyin the waters from the other side?
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On December 19 2017 06:35 farvacola wrote:
And there it is again, "clearly mutually exclusive" as though this spiel isn't straight Likud party sycophancy.
Lol.
Are you actually going to make an argument or are you just going to continue to embarrass yourself with idiotic and baseless sniping?
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This is a silly conversation. The world doesn't take trump or any of his decisions seriously. It'll get repealed by the next president and no one seriously believes this choice has any real historical significance. People are going to get angry and worked up but no one should be silly enough to belive Trump at this point has any ability to influence the middle east like this.
I honestly have never seen any evidence that the Palestinian government of any brand has ever supported a two state solution. Maybe I missed something and I'm wrong. But I've honestly never seen a legitimate path to peace in my lifetime.
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On December 19 2017 06:42 Sermokala wrote:
This is a silly conversation. The world doesn't take trump or any of his decisions seriously. It'll get repealed by the next president and no one seriously believes this choice has any real historical significance. People are going to get angry and worked up but no one should be silly enough to belive Trump at this point has any ability to influence the middle east like this.
even small decisions are worth doing right.
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Evidently the action regarding Jerusalem is not meaningless because from what I’ve heard the Middle East is largely crying bloody murder over this issue. This action will have consequences and that is something we should be ready to deal with.
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On December 19 2017 06:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are generally a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. Not all, no. Most people from every culture simply want to build a better life for their children. That includes the Palestinians. However, there is a violent sect within the Palestinian people, including their current leadership of Hamas, that will never accept peace. They will twist the minds of the young to continue the war. They will continue to fire rockets and set off bombs. No matter what Israel does, the terrorists will incite war until all the Israelis are dead. Even if all the terrorists were removed from Palestine, outside agitators will continue the war and develop new recruits. It’s the harsh reality of the Middle East. “Experts” do what they can to slow the growth of terrorism, but they do nothing to push it back because pushing it back means taking the fight to them. It means the deaths of innocent people who get caught up in it. In the short term, it even means more recruits to the terrorist cause. However, if you ever want peace in the Middle East, it only becomes a reality as a reaction to a terrible war.
on which well-researched sources are you basing your claims/conclusions?
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On December 19 2017 06:42 Sermokala wrote:
This is a silly conversation. The world doesn't take trump or any of his decisions seriously. It'll get repealed by the next president and no one seriously believes this choice has any real historical significance. People are going to get angry and worked up but no one should be silly enough to belive Trump at this point has any ability to influence the middle east like this.
People do take the US seriously and understand that anything we do is at the whim of the next demagogue we elect. Considering our love for going to war based on bad evidence, I don’t think they will be forgetting this move.
Also, I’m not sure we can put that toothpaste back in the tube.
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On December 19 2017 06:37 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel. Israel is supported by the big christian population in the US mainly for religeous reasons, and therefore Israel can get away with everything. In other western countries, the Palestinians have more support, as they are the oppressed underdogs in the conflict. Also, be careful about overestimating Trump's symbolic recognicion of Jerusalem. There is no international support for his action, and actually does not matter much
I don't really care about whether Trump has domestic support for the action or why. My only concern is what is good for the US. Israel is an ally and should be treated as such. The Palestinians will never be allies. For that reason alone, the US should dispense with this fiction of trying to be "fair" on the Israel/Palestine issue. Nor do I care what other Western countries think. They aren't going to throw the US overboard on account of Palestine for the same reasons that the Saudis and other Arab powers won't. The bottom line is that no one really cares about the Palestinians.
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On December 19 2017 06:43 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:42 Sermokala wrote:
This is a silly conversation. The world doesn't take trump or any of his decisions seriously. It'll get repealed by the next president and no one seriously believes this choice has any real historical significance. People are going to get angry and worked up but no one should be silly enough to belive Trump at this point has any ability to influence the middle east like this. even small decisions are worth doing right.
Ok?
On December 19 2017 06:44 LegalLord wrote:
Evidently the action regarding Jerusalem is not meaningless because from what I’ve heard the Middle East is largely crying bloody murder over this issue. This action will have consequences and that is something we should be ready to deal with.
The west does something to make the middle east angry all the time. At this point pissing off the middle east is a meme that has no real weight. By the time they're done rioting America is just waking up and its too late to do anything about it most of the itme.
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EPT
