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On December 19 2017 06:59 IyMoon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:57 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:52 Simberto wrote:On December 19 2017 06:46 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:37 Slydie wrote:On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel. Israel is supported by the big christian population in the US mainly for religeous reasons, and therefore Israel can get away with everything. In other western countries, the Palestinians have more support, as they are the oppressed underdogs in the conflict. Also, be careful about overestimating Trump's symbolic recognicion of Jerusalem. There is no international support for his action, and actually does not matter much I don't really care about whether Trump has domestic support for the action or why. My only concern is what is good for the US. Israel is an ally and should be treated as such. The Palestinians will never be allies. For that reason alone, the US should dispense with this fiction of trying to be "fair" on the Israel/Palestine issue. Nor do I care what other Western countries think. They aren't going to throw the US overboard on account of Palestine for the same reasons that the Saudis and other Arab powers won't. The bottom line is that no one really cares about the Palestinians. Might makes right is such a wonderful ethical framework. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. And it is so incredibly shortsighted. Do you really think that you are so isolated from anyone else in the world that pissing everyone off will never have negative consequences? Like I have infamously argued before, ethics and morality aren't the ends of rational foreign policy. The self-interest of the nation is. So how is it not in the self interest of the USA to full stop 100% switch support from Israel ( a hated party in the ME) to Palestine (one that isnt)
Israel is a pro-American nuclear power. That alone should be dispositive.
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On December 19 2017 07:08 Velr wrote:
The thing about "americans" that is really staggering, is that they dont even know their own history. Like, its not important aside from the civil war... Its all under this umbrella of the "greatest generation" that fought WW2... Even the guys that fought in WW1 seem to be forgotten... Let alone anything before it or.. GASP.. Anything not american focussed.
Its really kinda sad...
We colonised, we threw tea into the sea, we fought each other, we owned hitler (russians did)... then we fought communism and won.
What?
Where are you inferring this from?
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On December 19 2017 07:14 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity. I said this earlier. Israel shouldn't want some quick victory here, the backlash would be too negative. The status quo plays directly into their hands.
But you are I are educated on the subject and understand the shift is Israel’s politics to hyper aggressive conservatives over the last 10+ years. And that the political party pushing the settlements and anti-peace talk rhetoric is also super corrupt and facing corruption charges. But they are populist as fuck by blaming everything on the other, who happens to be in a ghetto in Gaza, built by Israel.
On December 19 2017 07:14 Jockmcplop wrote:
What annoys me is that the innocent victims in all of this are the innocent Palestinians. Not the violent ones who target innocent Israelis, they are just as bad as the Israeli military, but the innocent families who have been brutalized in their own country.
As if that isn't bad enough, they get portrayed as terrorists and animals by xDaunt and the like because they are too simple minded to see the obvious truth that these people have been utterly wronged by Israel and the US, and the legacy of this occupation, and eventual extermination, is one of pure evil.
I long ago stopped siding with Israel in the conflict, but Palestinian has is own baggage. But most of that is a decade or more old. I don’t care who wins in this fight. I just would prefer not to be actively supporting the side with building ghettos.
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On December 19 2017 07:02 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:44 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 06:39 RenSC2 wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are generally a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. Not all, no. Most people from every culture simply want to build a better life for their children. That includes the Palestinians. However, there is a violent sect within the Palestinian people, including their current leadership of Hamas, that will never accept peace. They will twist the minds of the young to continue the war. They will continue to fire rockets and set off bombs. No matter what Israel does, the terrorists will incite war until all the Israelis are dead. Even if all the terrorists were removed from Palestine, outside agitators will continue the war and develop new recruits. It’s the harsh reality of the Middle East. “Experts” do what they can to slow the growth of terrorism, but they do nothing to push it back because pushing it back means taking the fight to them. It means the deaths of innocent people who get caught up in it. In the short term, it even means more recruits to the terrorist cause. However, if you ever want peace in the Middle East, it only becomes a reality as a reaction to a terrible war. on which well-researched sources are you basing your claims/conclusions? I’ll fully admit that these are my opinions based on my observations of the situation and parallels that I can draw from similar cases in human history. Where are your well-researched sources? Are they from a think-tank doing the exact same thing that I am? Can they point to a similar intractable case in human history that was solved peacefully and turned out not to be intractable? Have their efforts as policy advisors actually made the Middle East more peaceful? Don’t get me wrong, I don’t fully support Israel either. I think they have made significant blunders that have inflamed tensions unnecessarily. However, I do respect the right of Israel to exist and I respect the right of a country to declare its own capital. I don’t care about the response of terrorists when respecting those rights, with the exception of preparing for them.
do you want to read them in full? if so I could probably dig them up.
iirc it was a mix of an extensive report by RAND corp, plus the US army counterinsurgency manual.
if you respect the right of a country to declare its own capital, what about the country of palestine, which also considers jerusalem to be its capital (and where quite a lot of them live)?
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On December 19 2017 07:13 Ryzel wrote:
xDaunt when you say self-interest of the nation, are you referring to what is objectively best for the nation? Or rather what is in the collective, subjective interest of the citizens of the nation?
That depends upon the form of government.
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On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies.
palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison)
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On December 19 2017 07:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 06:59 IyMoon wrote:On December 19 2017 06:57 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:52 Simberto wrote:On December 19 2017 06:46 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:37 Slydie wrote:On December 19 2017 06:30 xDaunt wrote:On December 19 2017 06:28 farvacola wrote:On December 19 2017 06:25 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 06:23 RenSC2 wrote:
The world powers appeased the Nazis in the 1930s because they didn’t want war. They ended up in a war with the Nazis anyways after the Nazis gained more strength and were harder to defeat. We should not make the same mistakes with terrorists and worry about how they will react. We should simply prepare for the response.
We’ll be attacked if we capitulate and we’ll be attacked if we don’t. The terrorists won’t be happy until we are all cleansed from the face of the earth. So we might as well draw some clear lines in the sand and defend those lines even if it means war. Don’t let them gain enough power to threaten our existence and force us into a war with an uncertain outcome.
As a Trump hater, I still agree with the decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. It’s a start.
The lack of infrastructure spending is 99% on Trump and the Republicans though. I’m not going to be upset with the Democrats for their 1% responsibility on this one. Are you suggesting that Palestinians are terrorists? Everywhere I try to discuss this i see Palestinians portrayed as a braying mob of anti American terrorists who want nothing more than to wage war against the West at all times. Actually, as you'd know if you had met any, Palestinians are a fairly liberal bunch of people who just want to be able to let their kids go outside without them getting arrested and tortured for a few months. AIPAC has been doing its best to dehumanize the Palestinians for decades; with folks like the Daunt and Ren eating out of their dirty hands, one can take their efforts as successful. It's not about dehumanizing Palestinians. That's quite besides the point. The real question is in what universe will the Palestinians EVER be pro-American? The obvious answer is that they will never be, so we should unequivocally support Israel. Israel is supported by the big christian population in the US mainly for religeous reasons, and therefore Israel can get away with everything. In other western countries, the Palestinians have more support, as they are the oppressed underdogs in the conflict. Also, be careful about overestimating Trump's symbolic recognicion of Jerusalem. There is no international support for his action, and actually does not matter much I don't really care about whether Trump has domestic support for the action or why. My only concern is what is good for the US. Israel is an ally and should be treated as such. The Palestinians will never be allies. For that reason alone, the US should dispense with this fiction of trying to be "fair" on the Israel/Palestine issue. Nor do I care what other Western countries think. They aren't going to throw the US overboard on account of Palestine for the same reasons that the Saudis and other Arab powers won't. The bottom line is that no one really cares about the Palestinians. Might makes right is such a wonderful ethical framework. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. And it is so incredibly shortsighted. Do you really think that you are so isolated from anyone else in the world that pissing everyone off will never have negative consequences? Like I have infamously argued before, ethics and morality aren't the ends of rational foreign policy. The self-interest of the nation is. So how is it not in the self interest of the USA to full stop 100% switch support from Israel ( a hated party in the ME) to Palestine (one that isnt) Israel is a pro-American nuclear power. That alone should be dispositive.
Israel is only pro-American because we support them. We could easily make Palestine pro American
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On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison)
I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move.
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PALMER — Track Palin, the 28-year-old son of former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, was arrested on assault and burglary charges after he repeatedly hit his father, Todd Palin, at the family home in Wasilla on Saturday, charging documents say.
The charges mark his second domestic-violence arrest in not quite two years.
Wasilla police came to the Palin home Saturday after Sarah Palin called just after 8:30 p.m. to say her son was "freaking out and was on some type of medication," according to a sworn affidavit filed in court by Wasilla officer Adam LaPointe.
Track Palin came to the house to confront his father over a truck he wanted to pick up, according to the affidavit. Todd Palin told his son not to come because he'd been drinking and taking pain medication.
"Track told him he was (going to) come anyway to beat his ass," LaPointe wrote.
Todd Palin told the officer he got his pistol to "protect his family" and met his son with the gun when he came to the door, according to the affidavit.
Track Palin broke a window and came through it, and put his father on the ground, the report states. He began hitting him on the head.
Todd Palin escaped and left the house. He suffered injuries to his face and head, the officer wrote. He was bleeding from several cuts on his head and had liquid coming from his ear.
As police arrived, they saw two vehicles leaving the home: Todd Palin was in the first, and officers could see blood running down his face, LaPointe wrote.
Sarah Palin, in the second, was "visibly upset," he wrote. Officers learned Track Palin was alone in the house, and they could hear yelling coming from inside.
Police called to Track Palin to come out, and he came out the partly open front door, according to the affidavit.
"Track stood on the porch," LaPointe wrote. "Communication was attempted which failed due to Track yelling and calling myself and other officers peasants and telling us to lay our guns on the ground before approaching the residence."
Palin walked back in and the officers saw him moving around, the affidavit states. Then he came out an upstairs window onto the garage roof.
"He moved around in a strange manner and assumed a prone position just behind the roof line in what appeared to be an attempt to locate officers on the property," LaPointe wrote.
He went back inside, the officer wrote, but communication was re-established after 10 or 15 minutes of silence and Palin came back outside to talk.
Police put him handcuffs without incident and read him his Miranda rights in the back of a patrol car, according to LaPoint.
Palin told the officer he'd had a few beers earlier and gotten into a fight with his father about a vehicle and "there had been threats made between them," the affidavit said.
Track Palin had driven to the house, found the front door locked and saw his father pointing a gun at him through a window next to the door, the officer wrote. He told his father several times to shoot him, then punched out the window when his father tapped it with the gun.
"Track stated he then went through the broken window and disarmed Todd and put him on the ground," the affidavit says. "While Track had Todd on the ground he started hitting Todd in the head. Todd was able to get away from Track and get out of the residence."
Track Palin was arrested on domestic violence charges of felony first-degree burglary and misdemeanor criminal mischief and fourth-degree assault.
He was still in custody at the Mat-Su Pretrial Facility as of Monday morning.
A judge over the weekend set Palin's bail at $5,000 cash and release to a third-party custodian, a state courts database shows.
Todd Palin, reached by phone Monday, directed an ADN reporter's questions to the family's attorney. Asked if he had needed medical attention for his injuries, Palin said, "We're fine. We're fine."
Sarah Palin hadn't mentioned the incident on her social media feeds Sunday or Monday morning.
At the time of his arrest Saturday, Palin was serving two years of probation on a plea deal stemming from a January 2016 domestic violence arrest at the family home.
Charging documents in that case say a woman told authorities Palin punched her in the face and had a gun; Palin described a drunken altercation during which she hit him in the face.
He entered a guilty plea to a weapons charge that was adjudicated through Anchorage Veterans Court. The program emphasizes alternative sentencing and treatment for behavioral health or substance abuse issues.
[Track Palin weighs Anchorage Veterans Court for domestic violence charges]
Palin is known to have deployed to Iraq for a year and served with the 25th Infantry Division's 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team. Details of any combat duty were not immediately available
www.adn.com
He apparently has PTSD from his service, it's all very sad
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On December 19 2017 07:25 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison) I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move.
israel has been at this for a long time; if they haven' found a way to do so by now, they aren' tgoing to.
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On December 19 2017 07:17 Plansix wrote:
I long ago stopped siding with Israel in the conflict, but Palestinian has is own baggage. But most of that is a decade or more old. I don’t care who wins in this fight. I just would prefer not to be actively supporting the side with building ghettos.
I don't want anyone to think I'm supporting Hamas here or anything of the sort. The battle taking place between political and militant entities on both sides is one where everyone is in the wrong. The wrong approach has been taken for the wrong reasons on both sides. Israel were just better and stronger and had a bigger Dad.
I'm on the side of the innocent civilians (an easy and limp position to take for sure). I get emotional about this subject far more than any other because I have first hand experience of it.
As an aside, this is probably the root of argument I have had with you and GH before about identity politics. Its hard to be anything but cynical about the 'oppression' of American women or POC when you have seen how no-one worldwide gives two shits about real oppression when it is obvious.
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On December 19 2017 07:26 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:25 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison) I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move. israel has been at this for a long time; if they haven' found a way to do so by now, they aren' tgoing to.
They just need more time to make us comfortable with the idea. That it's best Palestinians children to not live there.
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On December 19 2017 07:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:26 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:25 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison) I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move. israel has been at this for a long time; if they haven' found a way to do so by now, they aren' tgoing to. They just need more time to make us comfortable with the idea. That it's best Palestinians children to not live there.
the reason they don' tdo it has nothin to do with us; and everything to do with themselves.
from an objective standpoint, it would be best if palestinians would stop having so many children, but that's clearly not going to happen.
i'll just mark you down as a hater btw, since tha'ts how you're actin and what you are.
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On December 19 2017 07:26 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +
PALMER — Track Palin, the 28-year-old son of former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, was arrested on assault and burglary charges after he repeatedly hit his father, Todd Palin, at the family home in Wasilla on Saturday, charging documents say.
The charges mark his second domestic-violence arrest in not quite two years.
Wasilla police came to the Palin home Saturday after Sarah Palin called just after 8:30 p.m. to say her son was "freaking out and was on some type of medication," according to a sworn affidavit filed in court by Wasilla officer Adam LaPointe.
Track Palin came to the house to confront his father over a truck he wanted to pick up, according to the affidavit. Todd Palin told his son not to come because he'd been drinking and taking pain medication.
"Track told him he was (going to) come anyway to beat his ass," LaPointe wrote.
Todd Palin told the officer he got his pistol to "protect his family" and met his son with the gun when he came to the door, according to the affidavit.
Track Palin broke a window and came through it, and put his father on the ground, the report states. He began hitting him on the head.
Todd Palin escaped and left the house. He suffered injuries to his face and head, the officer wrote. He was bleeding from several cuts on his head and had liquid coming from his ear.
As police arrived, they saw two vehicles leaving the home: Todd Palin was in the first, and officers could see blood running down his face, LaPointe wrote.
Sarah Palin, in the second, was "visibly upset," he wrote. Officers learned Track Palin was alone in the house, and they could hear yelling coming from inside.
Police called to Track Palin to come out, and he came out the partly open front door, according to the affidavit.
"Track stood on the porch," LaPointe wrote. "Communication was attempted which failed due to Track yelling and calling myself and other officers peasants and telling us to lay our guns on the ground before approaching the residence."
Palin walked back in and the officers saw him moving around, the affidavit states. Then he came out an upstairs window onto the garage roof.
"He moved around in a strange manner and assumed a prone position just behind the roof line in what appeared to be an attempt to locate officers on the property," LaPointe wrote.
He went back inside, the officer wrote, but communication was re-established after 10 or 15 minutes of silence and Palin came back outside to talk.
Police put him handcuffs without incident and read him his Miranda rights in the back of a patrol car, according to LaPoint.
Palin told the officer he'd had a few beers earlier and gotten into a fight with his father about a vehicle and "there had been threats made between them," the affidavit said.
Track Palin had driven to the house, found the front door locked and saw his father pointing a gun at him through a window next to the door, the officer wrote. He told his father several times to shoot him, then punched out the window when his father tapped it with the gun.
"Track stated he then went through the broken window and disarmed Todd and put him on the ground," the affidavit says. "While Track had Todd on the ground he started hitting Todd in the head. Todd was able to get away from Track and get out of the residence."
Track Palin was arrested on domestic violence charges of felony first-degree burglary and misdemeanor criminal mischief and fourth-degree assault.
He was still in custody at the Mat-Su Pretrial Facility as of Monday morning.
A judge over the weekend set Palin's bail at $5,000 cash and release to a third-party custodian, a state courts database shows.
Todd Palin, reached by phone Monday, directed an ADN reporter's questions to the family's attorney. Asked if he had needed medical attention for his injuries, Palin said, "We're fine. We're fine."
Sarah Palin hadn't mentioned the incident on her social media feeds Sunday or Monday morning.
At the time of his arrest Saturday, Palin was serving two years of probation on a plea deal stemming from a January 2016 domestic violence arrest at the family home.
Charging documents in that case say a woman told authorities Palin punched her in the face and had a gun; Palin described a drunken altercation during which she hit him in the face.
He entered a guilty plea to a weapons charge that was adjudicated through Anchorage Veterans Court. The program emphasizes alternative sentencing and treatment for behavioral health or substance abuse issues.
[Track Palin weighs Anchorage Veterans Court for domestic violence charges]
Palin is known to have deployed to Iraq for a year and served with the 25th Infantry Division's 1st Stryker Brigade Combat Team. Details of any combat duty were not immediately available
www.adn.comHe apparently has PTSD from his service, it's all very sad
I'd say he's lucky to not have been shot by police since a gun was involved at one point, but something tells me luck isn't the contributing factor there.
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On December 19 2017 07:29 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:17 Plansix wrote:
I long ago stopped siding with Israel in the conflict, but Palestinian has is own baggage. But most of that is a decade or more old. I don’t care who wins in this fight. I just would prefer not to be actively supporting the side with building ghettos.
As an aside, this is probably the root of argument I have had with you and GH before about identity politics. Its hard to be anything but cynical about the 'oppression' of American women or POC when you have seen how no-one worldwide gives two shits about real oppression when it is obvious.
But then you take a step back and you notice that the people talking about " 'oppression' of American women or POC" are also on your side in this conversation. Right?
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On December 19 2017 07:32 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:29 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:26 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:25 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison) I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move. israel has been at this for a long time; if they haven' found a way to do so by now, they aren' tgoing to. They just need more time to make us comfortable with the idea. That it's best Palestinians children to not live there. the reason they don' tdo it has nothin to do with us; and everything to do with themselves. from an objective standpoint, it would be best if palestinians would stop having so many children, but that's clearly not going to happen. i'll just mark you down as a hater for the other side, since tha'ts how you're actin and what you are.
zlefin, the only reason they have driven all the Palestinians out is because they know it would cost them US support and a lot of the support from the West. We are the only reason they don't push harder.
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On December 19 2017 07:21 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:13 Ryzel wrote:
xDaunt when you say self-interest of the nation, are you referring to what is objectively best for the nation? Or rather what is in the collective, subjective interest of the citizens of the nation? That depends upon the form of government.
Right, that's what I thought. So, given the following premises (which you can feel free to rebutt)...
1. The rational US nation's self-interest is defined by the subjective whims of elected officials.
2. At least some of these elected officials are influenced by the principles of ethics and morality.
Ergo, it is rational for the US, and other nations with the same form of government, to have their self-interest at least partially defined by ethics and morality?
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On December 19 2017 07:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:32 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:29 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:26 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:25 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2017 07:21 zlefin wrote:On December 19 2017 07:12 Plansix wrote:
The party I love about all of this is that people think Israel will stop doing what they are doing and end the conflict quicker. Our grandchildren will be taking sides in the conflict as the meek numbers of Palestinians slowly die out and have their final property right revoked. Israel is on the path to victory. It is attrition. Their plan is to watch the Palestinians die off behind walls, with poor services and lack of opportunity.
Trump gave them what they wanted and got nothing beyond more enemies. palestinian numbers have been steadily increasing (and the owrse their conditions, the faster their population growth rate, rather ironically, but actually to be expected based on international comparison) I'm sure Israel will find a solution to that, like evicting Palestinians that have to many children or just removing children all together. They just need to find the right moment to make their move. israel has been at this for a long time; if they haven' found a way to do so by now, they aren' tgoing to. They just need more time to make us comfortable with the idea. That it's best Palestinians children to not live there. the reason they don' tdo it has nothin to do with us; and everything to do with themselves. from an objective standpoint, it would be best if palestinians would stop having so many children, but that's clearly not going to happen. i'll just mark you down as a hater for the other side, since tha'ts how you're actin and what you are. zlefin, the only reason they have driven all the Palestinians out is because they know it would cost them US support and a lot of the support from the West. We are the only reason they don't push harder.
I disagree, and would say you're quite clearly wrong. you're just a hater really. and your hate is blinding yuo to the more complex reailty of the situation.
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On December 19 2017 07:33 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2017 07:29 Jockmcplop wrote:On December 19 2017 07:17 Plansix wrote:
I long ago stopped siding with Israel in the conflict, but Palestinian has is own baggage. But most of that is a decade or more old. I don’t care who wins in this fight. I just would prefer not to be actively supporting the side with building ghettos.
As an aside, this is probably the root of argument I have had with you and GH before about identity politics. Its hard to be anything but cynical about the 'oppression' of American women or POC when you have seen how no-one worldwide gives two shits about real oppression when it is obvious. But then you take a step back and you notice that the people talking about " 'oppression' of American women or POC" are also on your side in this conversation. Right?
Yeah this is right. I think I'm more invested in one subject than the other just because of my first hand experience of both (not saying that my opinion is superior, just different because of experience).
I'm saying that if people worldwide, especially current generation leftists (I've run out of other phrases to describe SJWs haha) were even half as militant about real oppression as they are about lack of equality then maybe US foreign policy in Israel could have been a slightly different story.
Not that it would have changed the outcome.
Maybe the portrayal of Palestinians could have been more enlightened if people had a moral incentive or felt some duty to speak up for them.
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EPT
