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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22457 Posts
December 15 2017 17:03 GMT
#190761
On December 16 2017 01:46 Plansix wrote:
Danglars and I agree for once. Congress dropped the ball back on the 1990 when they let the telecoms dictate who got access to cable. Market forces don't drive long lasting infrastructure. Now the internet is critical to the economy, but congress hasn't been involved with it for more than 20 years. Again, leaning on the executive branch to do all the real governing.

Isn't that a running theme?

Congress should have acted on X but couldn't be arsed for Y reason? (Y being either bribery or plain lazyness).
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 15 2017 17:06 GMT
#190762
On December 16 2017 02:03 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 01:46 Plansix wrote:
Danglars and I agree for once. Congress dropped the ball back on the 1990 when they let the telecoms dictate who got access to cable. Market forces don't drive long lasting infrastructure. Now the internet is critical to the economy, but congress hasn't been involved with it for more than 20 years. Again, leaning on the executive branch to do all the real governing.

Isn't that a running theme?

Congress should have acted on X but couldn't be arsed for Y reason? (Y being either bribery or plain lazyness).

Congress got broken when they weaponized it against Clinton. Newt tried to take the low tier job of speaker of the house and raise it to the level of president. That sort of fucked the system. And changing the house rules after Newt.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
December 15 2017 17:11 GMT
#190763
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 15 2017 17:16 GMT
#190764
We blame Bush for the early 2000s, but Hastert did so much damage to the house with winner take all rules. He turned the speaker of the house into a dictator, rather than a manager
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9062 Posts
December 15 2017 17:16 GMT
#190765
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22457 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-15 17:19:00
December 15 2017 17:18 GMT
#190766
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Because it can only be changed by those in power and it benefits those in power.
So everyone who is able to change it doesn't want to.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
December 15 2017 17:19 GMT
#190767
Isn't that basically the point of creating regulatory bodies in the first place? Having a specialized group that focus better than several hundred catch-all politicians, who can also continue to function regardless of government action/inaction.

It doesn't mean that congress can't have oversight.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
December 15 2017 17:22 GMT
#190768
The Army's Green Berets have gained a reputation over the decades for their toughness and fighting skills. They served with local forces in Vietnam, and in recent years, they've deployed repeatedly to Iraq and Afghanistan. The list of their deployments continues to grow: Niger. Somalia. Yemen. Syria. Philippines.

Now a fight appears to be growing inside the Green Beret community.

An anonymous and scathing 12-page letter that begins — "Our Regiment has a cancer, and it is destroying the SF (Special Forces) legacy, its capability and its credibility" — has gone viral over the past few weeks among active-duty and retired soldiers.

It charges that the Green Beret command at its Fort Bragg, N.C., school has lowered training standards and graduated Green Berets who are "markedly and demonstrably weaker; and quantifiably projecting measurable risk and liability onto the teammates with which they serve."

It is signed: "A concerned Green Beret."

The letter writer's identity remains a mystery at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School at Fort Bragg. But the command does not dispute its authenticity and has responded with a letter of its own, signed by the officer who runs the school, Maj. Gen. Kurt Sonntag. It's addressed to the men and women at the school.

"Many of you have seen the anonymous letter calling into question the integrity of our training standards and the quality of the Soldiers being produced. Let me be clear," Sonntag writes in his letter, a copy of which was provided to NPR by the command, "I would be proud to serve with each and every one of our Special Forces Qualification Course graduates, and I stand behind the quality of every Soldier we send to the operational force."

The general went on to say that "no fundamental SF standard has been removed. No academic or character performance standards have been adjusted."

NPR reached out to nearly a dozen current and former Green Berets — none of whom wanted their names used — and got a mixed reaction to the dispute.

Some see the anonymous letter writer as disgruntled or lacking in sufficient experience or being unaware of the bigger picture, namely the difficulty in recruiting and retaining Green Berets.

There are some 7,000 active-duty Green Berets, and officials say they could lose hundreds in the coming years because of the strain of repeated deployments and failure to meet recruiting targets.

Others say the letter writer is raising some important issues.

They contend that the quality of the Special Forces soldiers has decreased for at least several years. "We don't want to lose quality for quantity," said one veteran Green Beret stationed at Fort Bragg, who requested anonymity. "You can't mass produce special operators."

This noncommissioned officer said that he only has a few years left to serve and that he'll stick it out. But if he had 10 more years, he says, he would opt out. He said the loss of veteran operators and the increase in less-competent Green Berets is having an impact.

"It's killing morale," he said.

Still, this Green Beret empathized with the command.

"I see it from both sides. The recruiting pool is gone. They're in a tough spot."

One Green Beret who served with Sonntag in Afghanistan praised his leadership skills and recalled him saying that all Green Berets have a responsibility to make sure every one of them succeeds.

n the anonymous letter, the "concerned Green Beret" takes on physical fitness workouts — where he claims that instructors are punished for making them too hard — and says there are instances of favoritism and cheating.

The author's examples of below-standard students and maligned trainers are complete with names, rank, units and dates.

As far as training, the anonymous letter says students can no longer wash out for failing to pass physical tests, ranging from a 5-mile run to a 12-mile march with a heavy pack to dozens of pushups and situps. Instead, these tests became "diagnostic" to determine the student's level of achievement.

The only way out of Green Beret training is voluntarily withdrawal or injury.

"To say that standards have not been eliminated would be laughable, were it not so tragic," the anonymous letter states.

In his letter, Sonntag defended the diagnostic approach as opposed to simply washing out a student.

Such an effort gives instructors "more time to prepare the students for these events. Students must meet these standards prior to joining the operational force," the general wrote.

Those who applied and passed the physical tests and assessment to become a Green Beret student, the general wrote, should be able to make it through the more than yearlong qualifying course. If such an assessment "is correct, and we believe it is, the [Special Forces Qualifying Course] is not a place where high attrition rates should occur."

Sonntag declined an interview request from NPR. Instead, he agreed to address a few questions through his staff.

The anonymous letter writer says one Green Beret officer during a meeting ordered a 92 percent pass rate, though Sonntag says, "There has been no graduation percentage set by any level of command." The school declined to talk about graduation rates, but one current Green Beret said his class a decade ago saw more than 50 percent fail.

Sonntag did offer one statistic in his letter to the school: "In 2017, more than 2,000 Soldiers attempted the [Special Forces Assessment and Selection], and 541 graduated from the [Special Forces Qualifying Course]."

But he offered no numbers on how many passed the assessment and made it into the qualifying course, so there is no sense of the fail rate.

The anonymous letter writer claims there is a reason the standards are being adjusted: To bring in female candidates, a view supported by one of the Green Berets contacted by NPR. The Pentagon allowed women to apply for Green Beret training two years ago. Only a handful have tried; none have passed.

But Sonntag also denies that standards have in any way been altered to bring in more female students, saying in response to an NPR question: "That is not the case. Special operations training is inclusive, and each candidate is held to the same standard."

The general ends his letter to the troops by saying he wants a "healthy dialogue as a means of improvement."

"Every level of command," the general writes, "has been encouraged to challenge the current process, phasing and training methodology to ensure (the school's) training remains relevant."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 15 2017 17:50 GMT
#190769
On December 16 2017 02:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Isn't that basically the point of creating regulatory bodies in the first place? Having a specialized group that focus better than several hundred catch-all politicians, who can also continue to function regardless of government action/inaction.

It doesn't mean that congress can't have oversight.

Yes, but when you offload all of the oversight to that body for 20 year, there is no buy in from congress. Congress members use these agencies as punching bags, rather than groups they are supposed to manage.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 15 2017 17:51 GMT
#190770
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-15 17:55:37
December 15 2017 17:54 GMT
#190771
On December 16 2017 02:51 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.


Pretty much this. There is no way the dems gain control of the senate and then put the 60 rule back in place for the SC because why the fuck would they? So just put that thought process onto everything
Something witty
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 15 2017 17:57 GMT
#190772
On December 16 2017 02:51 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.

There have also only been 3 speakers since that era iirc. Pelosi, boehner, and Paul Ryan. Pelosi is an alright politician but the other two certainly weren't intellectual heavyweights like Henry Clay. Speakers usually get overturned fairly easily but literally no republican wants the job which is fucking crazy when you consider it has always been at least the 2nd most powerful position in the US.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
December 15 2017 18:12 GMT
#190773
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

fixing dysfunction is maintenance work; it doesn' twin votes. just like sound, thoughtful policy doens't win votes.
also, voters can't vote in favor of fixin dysfunction cuz they're incapable of accurately indentifying both the sources of dysfunction and what solutions will actually fix it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9062 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-12-15 18:15:12
December 15 2017 18:12 GMT
#190774
On December 16 2017 02:51 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.

I understand that. Was hoping for someone to come up with something different. But if you think long term, having it fixed would be better than the shit we have now, no?
On December 16 2017 03:12 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

fixing dysfunction is maintenance work; it doesn' twin votes. just like sound, thoughtful policy doens't win votes.
also, voters can't vote in favor of fixin dysfunction cuz they're incapable of accurately indentifying both the sources of dysfunction and what solutions will actually fix it.

Agreed. The uninformed voter sits screaming at the television for the politicians to fix it and to do their jobs, not knowing the details of why they cannot do their jobs. The sound, thoughtful policy part is really the sad thing in all of this, because when you allow shady politicos pull on your heartstrings, you get the tax reform, the net neutrality, and the paris climate agreement fiascoes.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22457 Posts
December 15 2017 18:33 GMT
#190775
On December 16 2017 03:12 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:51 Plansix wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.

I understand that. Was hoping for someone to come up with something different. But if you think long term, having it fixed would be better than the shit we have now, no?
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 03:12 zlefin wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

fixing dysfunction is maintenance work; it doesn' twin votes. just like sound, thoughtful policy doens't win votes.
also, voters can't vote in favor of fixin dysfunction cuz they're incapable of accurately indentifying both the sources of dysfunction and what solutions will actually fix it.

Agreed. The uninformed voter sits screaming at the television for the politicians to fix it and to do their jobs, not knowing the details of why they cannot do their jobs. The sound, thoughtful policy part is really the sad thing in all of this, because when you allow shady politicos pull on your heartstrings, you get the tax reform, the net neutrality, and the paris climate agreement fiascoes.

Step 1 would probably have to be to change how Congress can change the rules that govern it. Since if the Democrats change the rules while they have a majority the Republicans can simply change it back next time.

I'd say atleast a 2/3 majority required for any change.

ps.
Funny enough I looked up how it works for my own country (Netherlands) since I didn't know. Turns out a simply majority vote is all it takes for changes. Guess it helps to not have a dysfunctional government.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
December 15 2017 18:42 GMT
#190776
On December 16 2017 02:50 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 02:19 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Isn't that basically the point of creating regulatory bodies in the first place? Having a specialized group that focus better than several hundred catch-all politicians, who can also continue to function regardless of government action/inaction.

It doesn't mean that congress can't have oversight.

Yes, but when you offload all of the oversight to that body for 20 year, there is no buy in from congress. Congress members use these agencies as punching bags, rather than groups they are supposed to manage.

Our CRTC is largely the same, last major parliamentary directive was in 1993. 2005 was when the Do-not-call list was established, but that's obviously non-internet.

Granted, it did try to introduce usage-based billing, which parliament threatened to overturn. But that's what oversight is, and is very different than what Danglars was saying, about a regulatory body not having the right to regulate under their jurisdiction.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
a_flayer
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Netherlands2826 Posts
December 15 2017 18:53 GMT
#190777
On December 16 2017 03:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2017 03:12 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:51 Plansix wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

Pandora's box rule. Once one side does it, there is little motivation or trust to undo it. It's giving power back to the people who just recently abused it.

I understand that. Was hoping for someone to come up with something different. But if you think long term, having it fixed would be better than the shit we have now, no?
On December 16 2017 03:12 zlefin wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:16 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
On December 16 2017 02:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
we are where we are because of gingrich and hastert. they were scummy as hell in both their public and personal lives.

The question still remains though; why hasn't it been fixed? Why hasn't some enterprising young upstart raise the issue of fixing the dysfunction?

fixing dysfunction is maintenance work; it doesn' twin votes. just like sound, thoughtful policy doens't win votes.
also, voters can't vote in favor of fixin dysfunction cuz they're incapable of accurately indentifying both the sources of dysfunction and what solutions will actually fix it.

Agreed. The uninformed voter sits screaming at the television for the politicians to fix it and to do their jobs, not knowing the details of why they cannot do their jobs. The sound, thoughtful policy part is really the sad thing in all of this, because when you allow shady politicos pull on your heartstrings, you get the tax reform, the net neutrality, and the paris climate agreement fiascoes.

Step 1 would probably have to be to change how Congress can change the rules that govern it. Since if the Democrats change the rules while they have a majority the Republicans can simply change it back next time.

I'd say atleast a 2/3 majority required for any change.

ps.
Funny enough I looked up how it works for my own country (Netherlands) since I didn't know. Turns out a simply majority vote is all it takes for changes. Guess it helps to not have a dysfunctional government.


A non-dysfunctional government, you say? I forgot, did they finally finish forming an actual government already? How long was it this time, 5 or 6 months without a government?
When you came along so righteous with a new national hate, so convincing is the ardor of war and of men, it's harder to breathe than to believe you're a friend. The wars at home, the wars abroad, all soaked in blood and lies and fraud.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
December 15 2017 18:58 GMT
#190778


I don't think this position will prove popular with anyone, even though Mrco Rubio is basically a hollow suit with no convictions.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
December 15 2017 19:04 GMT
#190779
On December 16 2017 03:58 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/941710865467871232

I don't think this position will prove popular with anyone, even though Mrco Rubio is basically a hollow suit with no convictions.


It is a valid point, but really also just makes you seem like a dick
Something witty
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32750 Posts
December 15 2017 19:09 GMT
#190780
On December 16 2017 03:58 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/941710865467871232

I don't think this position will prove popular with anyone, even though Mrco Rubio is basically a hollow suit with no convictions.

You would have to be one spiteful, bitter jerk to deny a little more financial security for families with children just because you don't have children or are single.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
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