EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 9485
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:57 Kickboxer wrote: On the other hand Syria was quite ok before the US decided to "freedom (tm)" there. US had very little to do with the syrian mess; it's largely a local matter, plus a fair amount of regional players. that you decide to blame US without knowin the facts though says a lot. | ||
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Kickboxer
Slovenia1308 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:41 Uldridge wrote: Wow, it's tried 10+ times with the exact same principles like the other times it was tried? I wonder why it turned out the same way every single time. The fact are this: it's always been dictators, you can't provide your entire country (if it's just you practising communism) with everything the country needs and I firmly believe the core principles were executed wrongly. But hey, keep saying you "know" why communism fails guy. There's no other way to try it. You cannot have equality of outcome without totalitarian oppression because people are not equal in their talents, abilities, intellect and industriousness. How this simple fact constantly flies over anyone's head is beyond me. But I guess you believe all that separates Jared Leto from you is "privilege". | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:54 Kickboxer wrote: And yes, unless you were a Jew or Roma, I would theoretically consider Nazi Germany a better place to live in than a correspondingly totalitarian postmodern society. Humans need values in order to survive, since the absence of values equals nihilism which strikes me as the worst mode of being you can even speculate. Consequently even the most cancerous and hellish value structure beats no value structure. Are you saying we get our values from our society? Because I thought that the influence of society on our thought was 'small in fact'. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:00 zlefin wrote: US had very little to do with the syrian mess; it's largely a local matter, plus a fair amount of regional players. that you decide to blame US without knowin the facts though says a lot. Is that true? Cursory research: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0418/Cables-reveal-covert-US-support-for-Syria-s-opposition Newly released WikiLeaks cables reveal that the US State Department has been secretly financing Syrian opposition groups and other opposition projects for at least five years [2006-2011], The Washington Post reports. That aid continued going into the hands of the Syrian government opposition even after the US began its reengagement policy with Syria under President Barack Obama in 2009, the Post reports. In January, the US posted its first ambassador to the country since the Bush administration withdrew the US ambassador in 2005 over concerns about Syria's involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:59 Schmobutzen wrote: Again, anybody who says that they are cultural relativists must deal with the fact that they can't criticise Nazis killing Jews. That's moral relativism, please try and understand what you're talking about before you talk about it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:04 kollin wrote: That's moral relativism, please try and understand what you're talking about before you talk about it. Morals are a result of culture... | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
And, congratulations on the 1111 post! | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21392 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:48 Kickboxer wrote: The USSR was not secular. Its religion was Marxist doctrine, and its god was the cult of personality. To me, the definition of "religion" is any dogma you have to accept at face value just because society tells you to. I know it's not a widely accepted definition, but for the sake of convenience I hope you can understand what I mean. The US is not secular, its religion is Capitalist doctrine and its god is the cult of personality. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4603 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:01 Kickboxer wrote: There's no other way to try it. You cannot have equality of outcome without totalitarian oppression because people are not equal in their talents, abilities, intellect and industriousness. How this simple fact constantly flies over anyone's head is beyond me. But I guess you believe all that separates Jared Leto from you is "privilege". There are tons of ways to try it. Technology opens up the way to try it differently for example. Communism doesn't need to be so shoehorned into "everything equal". It can be way more nuanced than that. Equity of resources means that everyone gets their share equally. Equity in opportunity means that everyone can become a Jared Leto potentially. Also, your example means nothing, because you don't consider social and physical deterministic factors. Privilege is definitely a thing, but it can of course be overcome. There are success stories of people starting with absolutely zero, being stuck in a shithole, but climbed to the top. However, the chance is so low, that only 0.000001% will be able to do this. You need a whole set of factors going in your favor. Your inherent traits are also a relevant factor in this. And you know this. Someone less intelligent or industrious isn't going to become a CEO or an innovator. You don't just become more industrious or intelligent either. And don't try to lump me with regressive lefts, please, you obviously lack the nuance to understand different sides with different viewpoints so you just blanket them all under the same thing. I heavily dislike these people. | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:03 Logo wrote: Is that true? Cursory research: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0418/Cables-reveal-covert-US-support-for-Syria-s-opposition it's true lsat I checked. there's a difference between some minor covert support and being a serious player and instigator of it. nothing I see in that link points to major US involvement. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:19 zlefin wrote: it's true lsat I checked. there's a difference between some minor covert support and being a serious player and instigator of it. nothing I see in that link points to major US involvement. It comes down to what you consider very little. Funding opposition groups then having a revolution where opposition groups wage a civil war doesn't seem like a major instigator (from what we know), but it certainly doesn't seem like "very little" either. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but this statement in and of itself is highly debatable. Regardless of that, you still don't understand cultural relativism if this is your position. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:14 Gorsameth wrote: The US is not secular, its religion is Capitalist doctrine and its god is the cult of personality. You've gotta sprinkle some theism in there too, after all there's never been an atheist president and there's only atheist Congressperson right now, Jared Huffman (though at one point I think there were three: Barney Frank, Pete Stark, and Huffman, though Huffman only stated it publicly after both of the others weren't in Congress anymore). Though I guess the overwhelming tendency of the ruling class away from atheism doesn't necessarily mean it isn't a secular government. A government of theists is not necessarily a theistic government. Until some of them decide to enshrine religion as critical to political life by putting God in the pledge of allegiance, anyway. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4603 Posts
It's why Nazi Germany was able to kill so many people despite knowing killing is bad. Unless if you're a psychopath or something like that, you'll know that, based on what the rules are around you, to follow those rules and you'll feel good when you follow those rules and you'll feel bad when you disregard or go against the rules. Edit: the USA isn't really secular. Too many Christians and it's too important for getting elected. Too many Christians in the governmental bodies for it to be truly secular as well. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On December 12 2017 01:21 Logo wrote: It comes down to what you consider very little. Funding opposition groups then having a revolution where opposition groups wage a civil war doesn't seem like a major instigator (from what we know), but it certainly doesn't seem like "very little" either. it depends whether the oppositions groups that formed the war relied much on your specific funding. from what I see it IS very little; most of their funding/effort came from other sources, and most of the impetus came from other sources. and most of the major successful opposition groups weren't that US aligned anyways. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 12 2017 00:54 Kickboxer wrote: And yes, unless you were a Jew or Roma, I would theoretically consider Nazi Germany a better place to live in than a correspondingly totalitarian postmodern society. Humans need values in order to survive, since the absence of values equals nihilism which strikes me as the worst mode of being you can even speculate. Consequently even the most cancerous and hellish value structure beats no value structure. You might even excel in Nazi Germany, because one of the unspoken truths about that government is that some Germans did very well under their rule. But claiming they had a value structure is bit of a misnomer. Nazis decided who was Jewish and who wasn’t. Who was Aryan and who wasn’t. They broke their own rules all the time, because the reality was that it was all about power. | ||
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