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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
October 27 2017 04:11 GMT
#181401
I thought Trump didn't even have anything to do with the JFK paper releases? It's just a scheduled deadline for them or something.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
crms
Profile Joined February 2010
United States11933 Posts
October 27 2017 04:12 GMT
#181402
On October 27 2017 13:11 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I thought Trump didn't even have anything to do with the JFK paper releases? It's just a scheduled deadline for them or something.

They were scheduled to release, he still had to approve said release from my understanding. He originally claimed he'd dump them all, but as per usual, rescinded on that and is withholding certain portions until a later date.
http://i.imgur.com/fAUOr2c.png | Fighting games are great
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
October 27 2017 05:05 GMT
#181403
I want a better answer to why 50+ year old documents need to be withheld for national security reasons. It appears to fuel speculation rather than deaden it.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3229 Posts
October 27 2017 05:44 GMT
#181404
On October 27 2017 14:05 Danglars wrote:
I want a better answer to why 50+ year old documents need to be withheld for national security reasons. It appears to fuel speculation rather than deaden it.

Much as I'd love to have more information about the JFK assassination released, what good will it really do? I sincerely doubt releasing the info would do much (if anything) to reduce conspiracy theories about it. Those people are not usually very responsive to new evidence, especially if it's statements from the government. I have no idea what national security purpose there could be to redacting pages from 50 years ago, but if there is a good reason, I assume telling us that reason would at least hint at what the information being redacted was, so I can understand no specific reason being given.

I'm curious, how many readers of this forum believe the JFK assassination was done by a lone gunman (as opposed to multiple people)?
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11908 Posts
October 27 2017 06:00 GMT
#181405
On October 27 2017 14:44 ChristianS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 14:05 Danglars wrote:
I want a better answer to why 50+ year old documents need to be withheld for national security reasons. It appears to fuel speculation rather than deaden it.

Much as I'd love to have more information about the JFK assassination released, what good will it really do? I sincerely doubt releasing the info would do much (if anything) to reduce conspiracy theories about it. Those people are not usually very responsive to new evidence, especially if it's statements from the government. I have no idea what national security purpose there could be to redacting pages from 50 years ago, but if there is a good reason, I assume telling us that reason would at least hint at what the information being redacted was, so I can understand no specific reason being given.

I'm curious, how many readers of this forum believe the JFK assassination was done by a lone gunman (as opposed to multiple people)?


Since I don't know enough about it I flipped a coin to have an opinion on the issue. It ended up with lone gunman. I can flip it more until I get multiple people if that is more helpful? (Just wanted to showcase that a lot of people don't really care about it, especially if you are not from the US and below 50 years old.)
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3229 Posts
October 27 2017 06:24 GMT
#181406
On October 27 2017 15:00 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2017 14:44 ChristianS wrote:
On October 27 2017 14:05 Danglars wrote:
I want a better answer to why 50+ year old documents need to be withheld for national security reasons. It appears to fuel speculation rather than deaden it.

Much as I'd love to have more information about the JFK assassination released, what good will it really do? I sincerely doubt releasing the info would do much (if anything) to reduce conspiracy theories about it. Those people are not usually very responsive to new evidence, especially if it's statements from the government. I have no idea what national security purpose there could be to redacting pages from 50 years ago, but if there is a good reason, I assume telling us that reason would at least hint at what the information being redacted was, so I can understand no specific reason being given.

I'm curious, how many readers of this forum believe the JFK assassination was done by a lone gunman (as opposed to multiple people)?


Since I don't know enough about it I flipped a coin to have an opinion on the issue. It ended up with lone gunman. I can flip it more until I get multiple people if that is more helpful? (Just wanted to showcase that a lot of people don't really care about it, especially if you are not from the US and below 50 years old.)

No idea/no opinion is a fine answer, but at least among Americans I suspect most people have some inclination one way or the other.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
October 27 2017 07:07 GMT
#181407
Government agencies want to show off their successes. If there was anything other than the public story, and they'd had the evidence, they would've been crowing about it immediately.

Likeliest answer is that what they know is completely in line with public knowledge, minus some fuzzy details that were being investigated but are completely cold now.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4850 Posts
October 27 2017 07:12 GMT
#181408
One potential reason I read was that they don't want to embarrass informants, but I assume there is more than that.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28701 Posts
October 27 2017 08:56 GMT
#181409
im also in the no idea camp. I generally have very little faith in conspiracies, but it's plausible that this one has some more legs to stand on, cold war seems to have been significantly less transparent and more 'covert' in general.
Moderator
Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 09:59:01
October 27 2017 09:58 GMT
#181410
I think it's exceptionally unlikely that anything which would fundamentally change perceptions of the JFK assassination generated only 300 or so documents.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 27 2017 10:44 GMT
#181411




"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23429 Posts
October 27 2017 11:09 GMT
#181412
In recent closed-door interviews with the Senate intelligence committee, Podesta and Wasserman Schultz said they did not know who had funded Fusion GPS, the intelligence firm that hired British Intelligence Officer Christopher Steele to compile the dossier on Trump, the sources said.

Podesta was asked in his September interview whether the Clinton campaign had a contractual agreement with Fusion GPS, and he said he was not aware of one, according to one of the sources.

Sitting next to Podesta during the interview: his attorney Marc Elias, who worked for the law firm that hired Fusion GPS to continue research on Trump on behalf of the Clinton campaign and DNC, multiple sources said.


Source

That's how you do it. l2p Trump.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
October 27 2017 11:32 GMT
#181413
I love the idea of that law firm just sitting there, having internal debates if they should tell the DNC about potential tape or maybe try to find some more evidence first. Maybe they had a funny code word for it so they didn't have to write pee tape in emails all the time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-10-27 11:55:23
October 27 2017 11:55 GMT
#181414
A Trump administration plan to subsidize coal and nuclear energy would cost US taxpayers about $10.6bn a year and prop up some of the oldest and dirtiest power plants in the country, a new analysis has found.

The Department of Energy has proposed that coal and nuclear plants be compensated not only for the electricity they produce but also for the reliability they provide to the grid. The new rule would provide payments to facilities that store fuel on-site for 90 days or more because they are “indispensable for our economic and national security”.

Rick Perry, the energy secretary, said the subsidies were needed to avoid power outages “in times of supply stress such as recent natural disasters”.

The plan would provide a lifeline to many ageing coal and nuclear plants that would otherwise go out of business, primarily due to the abundance of cheap natural gas and the plummeting cost of renewables.

The Department of Energy noted 531 coal-generating units were retired between 2002 and 2016, while eight nuclear reactors have announced retirement plans in the past year.

Donald Trump has vowed to arrest this decline and end the “war” on mining communities by repealing various environmental regulations put in place during the Obama administration.

Perry’s pro-coal market intervention would cost taxpayers as much as $10.6bn a year over the next decade, according to a joint analysis by the non-partisan groups Climate Policy Initiative and Energy Innovation. Just a handful of companies, operating about 90 plants on the eastern seaboard and the midwest, would benefit from the subsidies, the report found.

“The irony of putting costs on consumers for resources that are no longer competitive is really striking,” said Brendan Pierpoint, energy finance consultant at Climate Policy Initiative. “It would serve to keep a lot of uneconomic plants in the market that currently can’t compete with the changing dynamics of cheap gas and the falling cost of renewables.”

The Trump administration has raised concerns that the growth of intermittent wind and solar energy could undermine the so-called “baseload” power provided by coal and nuclear, pointing to power outages during the Polar Vortex cold wave that swept over North America in 2014.

However, recent studies of the grid have found that it has not been weakened by the loss of coal and nuclear plants and is barely affected by power outages. Also, coal-fired plants are not immune to natural disasters, with facilities going offline during the Polar Vortex and Hurricane Harvey, which hit Texas this year.

An unlikely alliance of renewable energy advocates and the American Petroleum Institute has complained that Perry’s plan tips the scales in favor of a failing coal industry and has vowed to fight the proposal. The rule would also jar with the supposed free market principles of an administration that has attacked subsidies for wind and solar, as well as intervention in healthcare insurance markets.

“Perry’s obsession with propping up these expensive, dirty facilities will cost Americans real money,” said Mary Anne Hitt, a campaigner at the Sierra Club.

“These ageing coal plants are making Americans sick, and now Secretary Perry wants to force us to pay tens of billions of dollars to Wall Street to keep them running, so they can continue polluting our air and water.”

Perry’s plan has to be approved by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), which is housed within the Department of Energy but is an independent agency. Two of FERC’s three commissioners were appointed by Trump, with one, Neil Chatterjee, already voicing support for subsidizing coal and nuclear. Perry has asked for a ruling on his request by 27 November.

The aggressively pro-fossil fuels stance of the Trump administration has been advanced elsewhere this week, with the House of Representatives approving a budget plan that would open the way for oil drilling in a vast Arctic wildlife refuge in Alaska.

Meanwhile, the interior department has released a plan to sweep away the regulatory “burdens” that slow down or prevent mining and drilling on public lands.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
mortyFromRickAndMort
Profile Blog Joined September 2017
85 Posts
October 27 2017 12:29 GMT
#181415
Oh good lord, aren't Republicans always on about 'not choosing winners and losers in business"? Ridiculous, man.
IyMoon
Profile Joined April 2016
United States1249 Posts
October 27 2017 12:31 GMT
#181416
On October 27 2017 20:55 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
A Trump administration plan to subsidize coal and nuclear energy would cost US taxpayers about $10.6bn a year and prop up some of the oldest and dirtiest power plants in the country, a new analysis has found.

The Department of Energy has proposed that coal and nuclear plants be compensated not only for the electricity they produce but also for the reliability they provide to the grid. The new rule would provide payments to facilities that store fuel on-site for 90 days or more because they are “indispensable for our economic and national security”.

Rick Perry, the energy secretary, said the subsidies were needed to avoid power outages “in times of supply stress such as recent natural disasters”.

The plan would provide a lifeline to many ageing coal and nuclear plants that would otherwise go out of business, primarily due to the abundance of cheap natural gas and the plummeting cost of renewables.

The Department of Energy noted 531 coal-generating units were retired between 2002 and 2016, while eight nuclear reactors have announced retirement plans in the past year.

Donald Trump has vowed to arrest this decline and end the “war” on mining communities by repealing various environmental regulations put in place during the Obama administration.

Perry’s pro-coal market intervention would cost taxpayers as much as $10.6bn a year over the next decade, according to a joint analysis by the non-partisan groups Climate Policy Initiative and Energy Innovation. Just a handful of companies, operating about 90 plants on the eastern seaboard and the midwest, would benefit from the subsidies, the report found.

“The irony of putting costs on consumers for resources that are no longer competitive is really striking,” said Brendan Pierpoint, energy finance consultant at Climate Policy Initiative. “It would serve to keep a lot of uneconomic plants in the market that currently can’t compete with the changing dynamics of cheap gas and the falling cost of renewables.”

The Trump administration has raised concerns that the growth of intermittent wind and solar energy could undermine the so-called “baseload” power provided by coal and nuclear, pointing to power outages during the Polar Vortex cold wave that swept over North America in 2014.

However, recent studies of the grid have found that it has not been weakened by the loss of coal and nuclear plants and is barely affected by power outages. Also, coal-fired plants are not immune to natural disasters, with facilities going offline during the Polar Vortex and Hurricane Harvey, which hit Texas this year.

An unlikely alliance of renewable energy advocates and the American Petroleum Institute has complained that Perry’s plan tips the scales in favor of a failing coal industry and has vowed to fight the proposal. The rule would also jar with the supposed free market principles of an administration that has attacked subsidies for wind and solar, as well as intervention in healthcare insurance markets.

“Perry’s obsession with propping up these expensive, dirty facilities will cost Americans real money,” said Mary Anne Hitt, a campaigner at the Sierra Club.

“These ageing coal plants are making Americans sick, and now Secretary Perry wants to force us to pay tens of billions of dollars to Wall Street to keep them running, so they can continue polluting our air and water.”

Perry’s plan has to be approved by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC), which is housed within the Department of Energy but is an independent agency. Two of FERC’s three commissioners were appointed by Trump, with one, Neil Chatterjee, already voicing support for subsidizing coal and nuclear. Perry has asked for a ruling on his request by 27 November.

The aggressively pro-fossil fuels stance of the Trump administration has been advanced elsewhere this week, with the House of Representatives approving a budget plan that would open the way for oil drilling in a vast Arctic wildlife refuge in Alaska.

Meanwhile, the interior department has released a plan to sweep away the regulatory “burdens” that slow down or prevent mining and drilling on public lands.


Source


Nothing weird here, just the free market at work! Coal is so good it only needs 10 b a year to keep it up? Why do we even waste time with solar/wind?
Something witty
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10792 Posts
October 27 2017 12:45 GMT
#181417
You have to understand, "loads of good people work in coal" while in solar are just liberal douchebags.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
9005 Posts
October 27 2017 13:03 GMT
#181418
The more Stealth posts, the more depressed I become. He does his damnedest to find the most awful news in the morning and dump it on us. Luckily I have coffee.
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
October 27 2017 13:22 GMT
#181419
I sure hope Trump puts some effort into where all these leaks from the closed-door meetings of the Senate Intelligence Committee are coming from...
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35160 Posts
October 27 2017 13:25 GMT
#181420
On October 27 2017 21:45 Velr wrote:
You have to understand, "loads of good people work in coal" while in solar are just liberal douchebags.

Solar energy is very violent, after all. The sun is constantly nuking the United States every day.
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