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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 26 2017 04:02 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 03:59 Danglars wrote:On September 26 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 03:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:On average, I like it when athletes voice their political opinions. But not always. I would have thought much higher of Paulo Di Canio if he hadn't. Generally though, athletes are role models and I want more people to involve themselves in politics and to be politically conscious.  How is calling the country racist being a role model? This has been my point about these racial issues all along: the free use of the term "racist" to defame a huge percentage of the country's population will never accomplish anything more than render the debate toxic and further polarize the sides. Police brutality is not a racial issue, but these idiots can't help themselves but make it one. They aren't unifying the country to solve a problem. They are further dividing it. Yep. They've been trying to play both sides, between "everybody is a little racist" and "you have to be somewhat racist to have voted Trump" all the way up to "half the country's racist/most people that didn't vote Obama are racist." It's facially clear that it's meant as a pejorative. This history of the politicization of the term means it can't be rescued to signify that we should speak more politely to illegal immigrants or be more respectful of diverse lived experience or whatever. When this absolute bullshit gets called out, in service of actually understanding what's happening in the country, people retract, double-down, or snipe from the galleries. It'll keep coming up because the forum is so backwards on this issue. I've never seen you try to engage with the people making an attempt to actually understand what's happening through the lens of racial power structures. These words ring hollow because you, just like the people calling half the country racist then putting their head in the sand, are not really talking about the issue.
If there's the lonesome good-faith "the lens of racial power structures is a useful means to studying racial politics/identity politics," then they're welcome to make the case. Particularly if they can see how it's demeaning to call tons of people racists and then try and make common cause with them against Trump. That's a useful reality lens to check before moving on to other lenses.
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On September 26 2017 04:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 04:28 Artisreal wrote:On September 26 2017 04:16 xDaunt wrote:
@GH -- Of course I'm not going to stop using that argument. I know it's right and, judging by the muted responses that I get from people around here, effective. You see people not reacting to your umpteenth time saying you can't accept terms of discourse that hurt your feelings as them condoning it? It's just very apparent that unless you're in a black person's skin for a whole you'll never understand the position gh and others are coming from. Looks like you and a bunch of other people need to learn what a "muted response" is. Here's a hint -- there's a reason why I didn't say "no response." No, you need to learn that your argument is trash and people are sick of seeing treated as a remotely sensible/informed position. I have yet to see a good explanation for why the argument is "trash." Perhaps it got lost in all of the posts like yours.
Which trash argument?
The woefully misinformed and rankly ignorant one about "keeping politics out of sports"?
The incredibly stupid one about "when has patriotism been divisive among racial lines"?
Or the one about how calling out people's racism makes the word meaningless and harms the discourse?
On September 26 2017 04:45 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:02 kollin wrote:On September 26 2017 03:59 Danglars wrote:On September 26 2017 03:16 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 03:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:On average, I like it when athletes voice their political opinions. But not always. I would have thought much higher of Paulo Di Canio if he hadn't. Generally though, athletes are role models and I want more people to involve themselves in politics and to be politically conscious. How is calling the country racist being a role model? This has been my point about these racial issues all along: the free use of the term "racist" to defame a huge percentage of the country's population will never accomplish anything more than render the debate toxic and further polarize the sides. Police brutality is not a racial issue, but these idiots can't help themselves but make it one. They aren't unifying the country to solve a problem. They are further dividing it. Yep. They've been trying to play both sides, between "everybody is a little racist" and "you have to be somewhat racist to have voted Trump" all the way up to "half the country's racist/most people that didn't vote Obama are racist." It's facially clear that it's meant as a pejorative. This history of the politicization of the term means it can't be rescued to signify that we should speak more politely to illegal immigrants or be more respectful of diverse lived experience or whatever. When this absolute bullshit gets called out, in service of actually understanding what's happening in the country, people retract, double-down, or snipe from the galleries. It'll keep coming up because the forum is so backwards on this issue. I've never seen you try to engage with the people making an attempt to actually understand what's happening through the lens of racial power structures. These words ring hollow because you, just like the people calling half the country racist then putting their head in the sand, are not really talking about the issue. If there's the lonesome good-faith "the lens of racial power structures is a useful means to studying racial politics/identity politics," then they're welcome to make the case. Particularly if they can see how it's demeaning to call tons of people racists and then try and make common cause with them against Trump. That's a useful reality lens to check before moving on to other lenses.
ffs this isn't about Trump.
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As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other.
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On September 26 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other.
Injustice, white supremacy, police brutality, etc...
EDIT: I can understand the confusion because there are many liberals that are trying to make this about Trump rather than the systemic problems that existed under Obama as well as Trump.
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On September 26 2017 04:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:28 Artisreal wrote:On September 26 2017 04:16 xDaunt wrote:
@GH -- Of course I'm not going to stop using that argument. I know it's right and, judging by the muted responses that I get from people around here, effective. You see people not reacting to your umpteenth time saying you can't accept terms of discourse that hurt your feelings as them condoning it? It's just very apparent that unless you're in a black person's skin for a whole you'll never understand the position gh and others are coming from. Looks like you and a bunch of other people need to learn what a "muted response" is. Here's a hint -- there's a reason why I didn't say "no response."
point still stands. You're just not willing to see "it".
On September 26 2017 04:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:37 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:35 xDaunt wrote:On September 26 2017 04:28 Artisreal wrote:On September 26 2017 04:16 xDaunt wrote:
@GH -- Of course I'm not going to stop using that argument. I know it's right and, judging by the muted responses that I get from people around here, effective. You see people not reacting to your umpteenth time saying you can't accept terms of discourse that hurt your feelings as them condoning it? It's just very apparent that unless you're in a black person's skin for a whole you'll never understand the position gh and others are coming from. Looks like you and a bunch of other people need to learn what a "muted response" is. Here's a hint -- there's a reason why I didn't say "no response." No, you need to learn that your argument is trash and people are sick of seeing treated as a remotely sensible/informed position. I have yet to see a good explanation for why the argument is "trash." Perhaps it got lost in all of the posts like yours.
You're not willing to accept reality, that's why you cannot see the explanation.
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On September 26 2017 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other. Injustice, white supremacy, police brutality, etc...
What about them?
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On September 26 2017 04:51 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other. Injustice, white supremacy, police brutality, etc... What about them?
It's a protest against them. This seems a bit rudimentary, is this going somewhere?
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On September 26 2017 04:52 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:51 LegalLord wrote:On September 26 2017 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other. Injustice, white supremacy, police brutality, etc... What about them? It's a protest against them. This seems a bit rudimentary, is this going somewhere?
Not really, just clarifying in the midst of a topic that has really gone upside down face such that the core argument was lost.
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On September 26 2017 04:53 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 04:52 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:51 LegalLord wrote:On September 26 2017 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 26 2017 04:48 LegalLord wrote:
As in discussions like this the point gets lost in the ruckus of the moment, could you clarify in some detail what this is about from your perspective? I'm sort of losing the main point and it looks like everyone is talking past each other. Injustice, white supremacy, police brutality, etc... What about them? It's a protest against them. This seems a bit rudimentary, is this going somewhere? Not really, just clarifying in the midst of a topic that has really gone upside down face such that the core argument was lost.
I think I've been pretty clear about it, but I hope that helps anyone who lost it.
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It should be telling that Trump is so much more concerned with whether the flag gets what he deems the proper amount of respect from our major athletes, than with working to ensure that Puerto Rico is able to recover their power and their lives as quickly as possible.
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On September 26 2017 05:13 NewSunshine wrote:
It should be telling that Trump is so much more concerned with stirring up white grievance and white identity butthurt to distract from a third ACA repeal failure than with working to ensure that Puerto Rico is able to recover their power and their lives as quickly as possible.
FTFY
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Seeing so many people at different places defending Trumps (in my eyes completely indefensible) NFL statements made me realize that the problems in the US are seated way deeper than I had thought. It's quite worrying to see such blind adversity thrown at people doing something harmless, as is the brainwash level of devotion to a flag and a song.
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On September 26 2017 05:29 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Seeing so many people at different places defending Trumps (in my eyes completely indefensible) NFL statements made me realize that the problems in the US are seated way deeper than I had thought. It's quite worrying to see such blind adversity thrown at people doing something harmless, as is the brainwash level of devotion to a flag and a song.
personally i think it’s just a surrogate for the real problem. it’s much easier to have this conversation than talk about the underlying reasons, as is routinely evidenced here.
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Huh, didn't realize that S&P did ratings on this sort of thing, lol. Maybe they're worried about all the debt that's held by companies that would be impacted by such a boneheaded piece of legislation.
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And this statement from the Steelers QB, ladies and gentlemen, is why it is always a bad idea to politicize nationalism and patriotism in this country:
I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.
As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.
I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women.
Source.
The NFL knows its fucked. Trump won. He knows it, and I think he's daring democrats to join the NFL players in protesting the national anthem.
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On September 26 2017 05:33 xDaunt wrote:And this statement from the Steelers QB, ladies and gentlemen, is why it is always a bad idea to politicize nationalism and patriotism in this country: Show nested quote +I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.
As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.
I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women. Source. The NFL knows its fucked. Trump won. He knows it, and I think he's daring democrats to join the NFL players in protesting the national anthem.
Can you be more specific as to how any of this proves or shows anything? I don't see what you are seeing.
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If he cannot see why they all did it yesterday, then he's lost. He understands that it is not about the flag or anthem. But about something deeper. But he still wants to bury his head in the sand and not deal with it. If he doesn't like what he's seeing, then petition the NFL to have the anthem played before teams are introduced.
S&P rates countries ticklish. If this legislation passes, I expect the credit rating of America to fall a notch or two. This is them giving us a warning to not do it.
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On September 26 2017 05:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2017 05:33 xDaunt wrote:And this statement from the Steelers QB, ladies and gentlemen, is why it is always a bad idea to politicize nationalism and patriotism in this country: I was unable to sleep last night and want to share my thoughts and feelings on our team’s decision to remain in the tunnel for the National Anthem yesterday. The idea was to be unified as a team when so much attention is paid to things dividing our country, but I wish we approached it differently. We did not want to appear divided on the sideline with some standing and some kneeling or sitting.
As a team, it was not a protest of the flag or the Anthem. I personally don’t believe the Anthem is ever the time to make any type of protest. For me, and many others on my team and around the league, it is a tribute to those who commit to serve and protect our country, current and past, especially the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice.
I appreciate the unique diversity in my team and throughout the league and completely support the call for social change and the pursuit of true equality. Moving forward, I hope standing for the Anthem shows solidarity as a nation, that we stand united in respect for the people on the front lines protecting our freedom and keeping us safe. God bless those men and women. Source. The NFL knows its fucked. Trump won. He knows it, and I think he's daring democrats to join the NFL players in protesting the national anthem. Can you be more specific as to how any of this proves or shows anything? I don't see what you are seeing.
We can all agree that protesting flag/anthem is symbolically unpatriotic.
Trump is daring DNC to join in to appear unpatriotic.
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EPT
