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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5185 Posts
At the very least refute it with argumentation instead of just dismissing it. I don't particularly care for which statues exist or not either by the way, but I can see it displaying both sides of history instead of it just being a glorification of a person. It introduces nuance, it's a focal point, a topic of discussion, ... | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:01 Uldridge wrote: It's people actively purging things from existence because they don't like the baggage attached to it. At the very least refute it with argumentation instead of just dismissing it. I don't particularly care for which statues exist or not either by the way, but I can see it displaying both sides of history instead of it just being a glorification of a person. It introduces nuance, it's a focal point, a topic of discussion, ... If you don't get rid of things every so often then there's no space for anything new in its place. And once again, it's not as though the knowledge of Columbus or Lee or whoever else is being purged from existence by taking down some statues. On September 01 2017 19:00 PM_ME_NICE_PUPPERS wrote: So comically unconvincing that they are proven true just days after they are made? It didn't take two days for people to go from "comparing Washington to Lee was ridiculous" to "actually, yeah, let's tear down Washington as well". Who in particular went from one to the other in two days? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18348 Posts
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Godwrath
Spain10152 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5185 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:04 Aquanim wrote: If you don't get rid of things every so often then there's no space for anything new in its place. And once again, it's not as though the knowledge of Columbus or Lee or whoever else is being purged from existence by taking down some statues. I propose a new way of statue presentation: totemism; just melt newer statues on top of older ones so that you get a tower of statues representing the thought movement of the time. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12475 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:01 Uldridge wrote: At the very least refute it with argumentation instead of just dismissing it. Okay, I'm going to try: - You can make a logically consistent case as to why you would want to remove statues that glorify people who have done unsavory actions - You cannot make a logically consistent case as to why you would want to remove Lolita. Done. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:06 Acrofales wrote: I'm not too knowledgeable about what exactly Columbus did, but he was NOT a conquistador. Tear down statues of Pizarro and Cortes if you want to rail against mass slaughter of the natives, but Columbus was mostly an explorer. Albeit one who was mostly in it for the money. On September 01 2017 19:08 Godwrath wrote: It's quite an odd target from my point of view, i guess in the US he's seen differently. Always thought any statue of Columbus was mostly to represent courage to explore the unknown against the odds rather than to glorify any sort of martial prowess or exploiting of the natives that came afterwards. If it was hernan cortez i.would.understand, but Columbus? His wikipedia page doesn't paint a particularly savoury picture but we could argue the toss about "for his time" indefinitely and I'd rather not. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5185 Posts
People could very well look at Lolita, see the pedophilia aspect and be unable to accept this piece of literature existing. I agree we're nowhere near this kind of silencing, though. A more well made argument could've been made from you where you appealed to the context of the culture being overthrown instead of just saying "lol logic". | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12475 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:21 Uldridge wrote: The logic is based on the people focusing on the heinous aspects of a certain cultural piece, whether that's a statue, literature or painting. There is a clear difference between the existence of a book (you say Lolita but you can literally say Mein Kampf btw) and a statue standing in the middle of a town. You know that, I know that. The fact that there are people who wouldn't know that doesn't mean that we should account for that in our arguments. When those people come, we get to argue against them and end the slope. It hasn't been made slippery by acknowledging that they have a good point when they do. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8123 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:21 Uldridge wrote: The logic is based on the people focusing on the heinous aspects of a certain cultural piece, whether that's a statue, literature or painting. People could very well look at Lolita, see the pedophilia aspect and be unable to accept this piece of literature existing. I agree we're nowhere near this kind of silencing, though. A more well made argument could've been made from you where you appealed to the context of the culture being overthrown instead of just saying "lol logic". Lee statues were removed because they were erected and stood there as a very clear symbol. Same for the confederate flag, it's a joke to pretend it doesn't symbolize anything. No one cares if he was a good man or not. What matters is what the statue means. Columbus is not the symbol of native american genocide, I don't see what the point in removing his statues is. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:... Columbus is not the symbol of native american genocide... What does he symbolise that's worth putting statues up to? | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
inb4: but vikings | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18348 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:41 Aquanim wrote: What does he symbolise that's worth putting statues up to? At some point you have to acknowledge that he is the explorer that sparked large-scale colonization of the Americas and thus the founding of the USA. It's a bit like pointing out that William of Orange was a pompous prick who was only in the rebellion for selfish reasons. But he was still the leader of the rebellion that led to the founding of the Netherlands, and deserves to be remembered for that. As for abstract virtues? I personally find the quest for discovery and exploration virtuous. He was also, undoubtedly, rather brave. E: wow. I am surrounded by SoSexy and what looks very much to be Noidberg's alt. I am not in good company. I still stand by my words.  E2: the problem with the reasoning that Columbus was a dick and doesn't deserve statues is that almost every single historical figure was a bit of a dick. And I don't think there is any individual worthy of the kind of worship that would accompany the building of a statue to that person. However when we build statues, we are not really intending to worship that person (unless it is a religious idol, which is a different story), but rather what they accomplished in their lives. Christopher Columbus accomplished the modern discovery of America. General Lee accomplished a war in protection of slavery. Not quite the same thing. | ||
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PM_ME_NICE_PUPPERS
Pakistan51 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:41 Aquanim wrote: What does he symbolise that's worth putting statues up to? Are you kidding me? The "discovery" of the USA? Dealing a solid blow to the flat-earth-myth? Doing like for or five transatlantic voyages during a time where even one was perilous and basically unheard of? But good job shitting on the people who shaped the world. I'm sure the average Women's Studies or African American Studies major whose only contribution is attacking better men is going to have a similar impact. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:41 Aquanim wrote: What does he symbolise that's worth putting statues up to? The spirit of discovery, for one. | ||
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SoSexy
Italy3725 Posts
I specialized in medieval philosophy and get picky about these things anyways, the importance of Columbus is out of discussion. Maybe that guy has been living under a rock, I dunno. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10152 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:41 Aquanim wrote: What does he symbolise that's worth putting statues up to? Inspire explorers for starters. Something i already said before. | ||
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
As an aside, you'll find statues of the first European to discover Australia around the place here, but we don't have a day in memory of the guy or anything, and our country doesn't seem any worse off for it. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18348 Posts
On September 01 2017 19:57 Aquanim wrote: To be clear, that question didn't imply that I don't think Columbus has any significance, but I was curious what people thought in particular was important. As an aside, you'll find statues of the first European to discover Australia around the place here, but we don't have a day in memory of the guy or anything... Half your country is named for events in his bloody diary *ahem, ship's log* though. | ||
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