EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8474
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9351 Posts
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
But maybe it is I the right vein, who knows. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
TORONTO/MONTREAL (Reuters) - The number of asylum seekers who illegally crossed the U.S. border into Canada more than tripled last month, according to Canadian government data released on Thursday, as migrants worried about the U.S. administration's immigration crackdown head north. More than 3,100 people walked across the border illegally in July to file refugee claims and were arrested, up from 884 in June, the federal government said. Ninety-six percent of them went to Quebec, where an influx of asylum seekers, primarily Haitians, is sparking a backlash from opposition politicians and anti-immigrant groups in the primarily French-speaking province. In the first 15 days of August, an additional 3,800 asylum seekers were arrested crossing the U.S. border into Quebec, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police said. More than 1,000 people are living in tents and government facilities at a Lacolle, Quebec border crossing across from upstate New York. "It's not a crisis. It's a situation that is extraordinary. But it's well-managed," Transport Minister Marc Garneau told reporters in Lacolle on Thursday. Canada is struggling to house and provide social assistance for the influx of asylum seekers as its refugee system faces the worst delays in years. The Immigration and Refugee Board (IRB), which is responsible for hearing all asylum claims, has redeployed resources to deal with the Quebec arrivals. "The IRB had to make adjustments to be in a position to respond to the current situation that is clearly unsustainable," spokeswoman Anna Pape said in an email. Canada has launched a campaign to counter misinformation about the country's refugee policy, which is believed to be one reason for the influx of refugees. "Asking for asylum in Canada is not a guarantee for permanent residence in Canada, and it's extremely important we stress that," immigration ministry spokesman Louis Dumas told reporters. Conservative parliamentarian Michelle Rempel, her party's immigration critic, said the government steps are a "band aid" solution. "This situation started with Prime Minister [Justin] Trudeau's irresponsible tweets and he has a responsibility to fix it," Rempel said in a statement, referring to January tweets Trudeau sent touting Canada's welcome of refugees after a U.S. travel ban was unveiled. A Trudeau spokesman said the government has been consistent on the issue of refugees: "Canada welcomes immigrants ... that said, there are laws and processes in place for people seeking asylum and our government is sending a clear message." Many of the most recent asylum seekers arriving in Quebec have been Haitians who face looming deportation from the United States when their temporary protected status expires in January 2018. Canada ended its own ban on deportations to Haiti last summer. In the first quarter of this year, almost two-thirds of Haitian refugee claims were rejected, according to government figures. The spike in asylum seekers has sparked protests by anti-migrant groups who say Canada is being soft on law-breakers. The Montreal suburb of Boucherville has received dozens of messages on social media denouncing the asylum seekers, some of whom are being housed at a former seniors’ home in the quiet suburb, according to local media reports. Montreal, Quebec's biggest city, opened its Olympic Stadium to house the arrivals. Sylvain Brouillette, a spokesman for right-wing extremist group La Meute, which is organizing a Quebec City protest on Sunday, said his group is protesting the "policies of the Trudeau government toward illegal immigration." Source | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On August 18 2017 15:16 KwarK wrote: I recall reading that the permit being revoked issue you referenced was the Nazis being told to rally in another park that wasn't 100 yards from the park the protesters were rallying in. You can't simultaneously criticize the city for poor management and attack the solutions. The revoking of the permit to rally in the one park, with the offer of a larger park further from the protesters, was the solution you insist the city lacked. But you characterized that as an attempt at repression of the Nazis. Despite the fact that the city attempted to say that Emancipation Park would not allow the protest, the alt-right protestors won the court case, and had the permit to use the park. Interestingly, later on, in typical Trump-fashion, Donald Trump stuck his foot in his mouth by stating that the counter-protestors didn't have a permit, which wasn't the case at all. The counter-protestors immediately released their permit document to the public: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RW08XCV.png) If you read the document, the counter-protestors were allotted Justice Park and McGuffey Park (which is basically a playground), with the larger of the two being 350 yards from Emancipation Park. The counter-protestors made their way to Emancipation Park, and a brawl broke out. Police Chief Al Thomas reported that "no stand-down order was given", and I will take his word for it until I hear otherwise, but he also stated: "We made attempts to keep the two sides separate; however, we can’t control which side someone enters the park" and was careful not to mention who initiated the conflict, but simply that it happened, and that he was deeply regretful. The ACLU in Virginia state made this initial statement via twitter when the fighting broke out: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Clh1n3.png) Which seems to indicate that they were in contact with law enforcement. According to a liberal news source present for the protest, the police did stand-by as the violence unfolded. According to an interview conducted by the New York Times, one of the counter-protestors stated, “There was no police presence. We were watching people punch each other; people were bleeding all the while police were inside of barricades at the park, watching. It was essentially just brawling on the street and community members trying to protect each other.” Despite the official statement from the police chief, eye-witnesses are saying that the police stood by and did nothing to stop counter-protestors from entering Emancipation Park. So yes, as of right now, I am criticizing the city for their poor management of the situation. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4781 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11932 Posts
Will condemn antifa every time they make a mistake and attack someone else. But as long as one of the side is attacking nazis and the other side is being nazis, I won't be talking about both sides. I think we should talk more often though. | ||
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farvacola
United States18819 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7811 Posts
On August 18 2017 20:46 Nebuchad wrote: Hi ninazerg. When people get violent against nazis, I don't really feel that my society is under threat. I see a lot of the liberal response of condemning both sides in this thread but as a leftist I can't say I really associate. Will condemn antifa every time they make a mistake and attack someone else. But as long as one of the side is attacking nazis and the other side is being nazis, I won't be talking about both sides. I think we should talk more often though. It's kind of worrying that one even has to explain that actual nazis and people opposing actual nazis, however wrong their means might be, are not morally equivalent. I grew up with a consensus that nazism was an ultimate evil. If we transposed our situation in 1930, we would have half the people in this thread equating fascists and the too rare people who dared opposing them. Well I guess there had been more of them at the time. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9351 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:23 Biff The Understudy wrote: It's kind of worrying that one even has to explain that actual nazis and people opposing actual nazis, however wrong their means might be, are not morally equivalent. I grew up with a consensus that nazism was an ultimate evil. If we transposed our situation in 1930, we would have half the people in this thread equating fascists and the too rare people who dared opposing them. Well I guess there had been more of them at the time. I don't get how what you are saying follows on from Nebuchad's point though. You are talking about opposition to Nazis, of which there is an awful lot. He is talking about violence against Nazis, which is different. Its also an interesting point that some of us will agree that there is no moral equivalence between Nazis and those opposing them, but that doesn't justify violence unless in self defense. Also it is a well known phenomenon that violence provokes stronger opposition, so if you want to avoid galvanizing support for Nazis but you still want a good old bit of violence, you will have to kill them all to avoid making them stronger. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
It is crazy the he has been mostly hands off for almost all of this. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11932 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:29 Jockmcplop wrote: I don't get how what you are saying follows on from Nebuchad's point though. You are talking about opposition to Nazis, of which there is an awful lot. He is talking about violence against Nazis, which is different. Its also an interesting point that some of us will agree that there is no moral equivalence between Nazis and those opposing them, but that doesn't justify violence unless in self defense. Also it is a well known phenomenon that violence provokes stronger opposition, so if you want to avoid galvanizing support for Nazis but you still want a good old bit of violence, you will have to kill them all to avoid making them stronger. The argument would go that there's no such thing as a non-violent nazi, so you're always in self-defense. Or something like that. Else we can create a double standard where if one of the tenets of your ideology is that this guy who wanted to kill everyone who wasn't white because whiteness is cool is a decent guy, then you don't deserve to be treated with the same patience everyone else does. We have a ton of options if we want to use them. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 18 2017 15:51 Falling wrote: Or they can use them as non-examples  But yeah- police should keep the protestors and counter-protestors a part and showing up to a protest armed to the teeth needs to stop. Something worse than one crazy in a car is bound to happen with the amount of guns being packed around at these things. And if police continue to show reluctance at protecting free speech and keeping any activists protected on their permitted march to the grounds? People here are actually encouraging them to come armed with bats and the rest because they're fine with the violence. On August 18 2017 20:46 Nebuchad wrote: Hi ninazerg. When people get violent against nazis, I don't really feel that my society is under threat. I see a lot of the liberal response of condemning both sides in this thread but as a leftist I can't say I really associate. Will condemn antifa every time they make a mistake and attack someone else. But as long as one of the side is attacking nazis and the other side is being nazis, I won't be talking about both sides. I think we should talk more often though. Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote: ... Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that. ... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote: Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote: Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
8936 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote: Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. I can't believe we're still having this argument for the 7th day. It's fucking surreal. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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