|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote:
...
Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that.
... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society
I would say that violence against Nazis has a non-zero element of threat to societal health. I would also say that the existence of those Nazis as a political force has a considerably greater element of threat to societal health. EDIT: This does not imply that the latter justifies the former.
I think in some cases it is difficult to distinguish between "going out to commit violence against Nazis" and "going out prepared to defend oneself and others from Nazis", and I have a fair bit more sympathy with the latter position.
(I really should say previously free and open society)
On what basis should you say that?
Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes.
Are you saying that Antifa targeting Nazis is a more serious offence than making mistakes, or that they're not making mistakes when they target people that aren't Nazis?
|
On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote:
...
Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that.
... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter.
This quote comes to mind...
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
-Evelyn Beatrice Hall
|
On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote:
...
Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that.
... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble.
I actually agree with Danglars here. Nazi's are people and therefor have (and should have) the same rights as anyone else.
Lets not make the mistake of assuming our enemies are not people and do not deserve rights.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
Violence is violence. And the politic claims to have a monopoly on it. If the politic is not stepping in on violence, it becomes state-sanctioned violence against people for holding odious opinions.
You don't need to admit these guys as polite company. You certainly don't want them in political power. Actively initiating violence here is simply going to engender more violence.
|
Privately, they can do whatever the fuck they want if they don't break any laws in the process. When you go out in public to show off your hatred for a whole lot of people that currently live in your society and you would rather see them dead/removed, you invite people to react to that.
It's walking around, continually saying: "fuck niggers, fuck jews, fuck immigrants, fuck the Muslims and fuck democarcy, I want those all to die."
How does that sit well with people that have to bear them doing this in public. Their entire ideology is a mistake. I'll never approve of violence, but being a Nazi and openly walking in the street in all your despicable glory is inviting people to become angry.
It's like standing all bent over with a straight back and a mocking smirk on your face saying: "you wouldn't daaaaare hitting me, would you? I didn't do anything wrong." At some point people will just boil over and go ham..
The people doling out the violence also shouldn't go unpunished though. They got provoked by an ideology.
I understand Danglars' though process though. Hey, it's free speech, this means people get to be/say and portray themselves however they want. They have the right to march, unified, down the street! They weren't doing anything violent, so why are they violently attacked? It's the attackers that shouldn't get empathy of the people and the Nazi's that should get empathy!
But nobody wants to support Nazis because they're Nazis.They're the archetype of intolerance. The ideology has an absolutely reprehensible history tagged to it and people become very riled up when they see them openly marching in the street like this, unified, like they actually have some kind of place in this society.
|
Although I agree they deserve the right to speak and gather, we cannot overlook the fact that they also sought out conflict. They were there to fight whoever protested against them. There is only so much that can be done with two groups of people set on conflict.
|
I appreciate the liberal response and I'm not surprised by it. I just don't agree as far as nazis are concerned. Luckily you will now fight for my right to voice that opinion so we're fine.
There seems to be a focus on the word "mistake" as if I was saying Antifa accidentally targets other people? That wasn't the point, but I feel like it was kind of obvious, need I really clarify?
|
On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote:
...
Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that.
... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter.
Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics.
|
I disagree with the notion of violence against anyone being ok, if they themselves have not been violent. They can say they hate me all they want, and I'll return in kind. But I will never be the one to throw the first stone, and if their first stone kills me - then justice should be visited on those and only those responsible.
|
On August 18 2017 22:30 Nebuchad wrote:
I appreciate the liberal response and I'm not surprised by it. I just don't agree as far as nazis are concerned. Luckily you will now fight for my right to voice that opinion so we're fine.
There seems to be a focus on the word "mistake" as if I was saying Antifa accidentally targets other people? That wasn't the point, but I feel like it was kind of obvious...
On August 18 2017 20:46 Nebuchad wrote:
When people get violent against nazis, I don't really feel that my society is under threat. I see a lot of the liberal response of condemning both sides in this thread but as a leftist I can't say I really associate.
Will condemn antifa every time they make a mistake and attack someone else. But as long as one of the side is attacking nazis and the other side is being nazis, I won't be talking about both sides.
I think we should talk more often though.
Oh, it wasn't the word mistake. It was the entire thought embodied by your words. You will condemn antifa when they make a mistake, you won't condemn antifa if they initiate violence against nazis. Thank God there's a second amendment in this country so people can defend themselves from people like you who excuse violence.
On August 18 2017 22:22 TanGeng wrote:
Violence is violence. And the politic claims to have a monopoly on it. If the politic is not stepping in on violence, it becomes state-sanctioned violence against people for holding odious opinions.
You don't need to admit these guys as polite company. You certainly don't want them in political power. Actively initiating violence here is simply going to engender more violence.
You can put the simple argument in two sentences and people will still deny one leads to the other.
|
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them.
|
On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them.
If the Nazis were doing something illegal, yes, the police should have arrested the Nazis. And if Nazis resisted or fought back, then I'd be all for the police responding in kind.
|
On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them.
In my opinion - even if they are better armed, if they did nothing wrong - they don't deserve arrest. If they did something wrong, then yes - arrest them. If arresting them causes the Nazi's to open fire with the better weapons, then we cross the bridge of discussing gun rights, police armaments, propensity for Nazi's to cause violence, and so on.
|
On August 18 2017 22:38 Danglars wrote:
Oh, it wasn't the word mistake. It was the entire thought embodied by your words. You will condemn antifa when they make a mistake, you won't condemn antifa if they initiate violence against nazis. Thank God there's a second amendment in this country so people can defend themselves from like you who excuse violence.
Does it ever occur to you that if you actually make your point instead of showing all of this outrage and some snide remarks, conversations tend to go faster?
|
On August 18 2017 22:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them. If the Nazis were doing something illegal, yes, the police should have arrested the Nazis. And if Nazis resisted or fought back, then I'd be all for the police responding in kind.
And if the illegal actor is surrounded by like minded people with long rifles and body armor, the police are just supposed to wade into the mob and make the arrest? When the protesters outnumber the police?
I feel you don't appreciate how sideways that entire thing could have gone.
|
On August 18 2017 22:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them. If the Nazis were doing something illegal, yes, the police should have arrested the Nazis. And if Nazis resisted or fought back, then I'd be all for the police responding in kind. And if the illegal actor is surrounded by like minded people with long rifles and body armor, the police are just supposed to wade into the mob and make the arrest? When the protesters outnumber the police?
Yes.
|
On August 18 2017 22:47 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:46 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them. If the Nazis were doing something illegal, yes, the police should have arrested the Nazis. And if Nazis resisted or fought back, then I'd be all for the police responding in kind. And if the illegal actor is surrounded by like minded people with long rifles and body armor, the police are just supposed to wade into the mob and make the arrest? When the protesters outnumber the police? Yes.
And during the arrest the better armed kkk members feel threatened by the counter protests and start pointing guns at the officer or protester, then what? What if they resist? What if one of KKK members points his weapon at the officer?
|
On August 18 2017 22:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:47 JinDesu wrote:On August 18 2017 22:46 Plansix wrote:On August 18 2017 22:43 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2017 22:40 Plansix wrote:
Sorry, I forgot we needed a pile of bodies before we can discuss the safety issues with large groups of people carrying guns to protests. My mistake. The police should have arrested the people that were better armed than them. If the Nazis were doing something illegal, yes, the police should have arrested the Nazis. And if Nazis resisted or fought back, then I'd be all for the police responding in kind. And if the illegal actor is surrounded by like minded people with long rifles and body armor, the police are just supposed to wade into the mob and make the arrest? When the protesters outnumber the police? Yes. And during the arrest the better armed kkk members feel threatened by the counter protests and start pointing guns at the officer or protester, then what? What if they resist?
Then arrest them too. Use appropriate force equivalent to the resistance. If the police are all killed by Nazi's in the ultimate scenario - then clearly those protesters have shown their hand and we have clear evidence to prosecute each and every one of them, we probably sufficient reasoning to claim that Nazi groups are terroristic and should not be allowed to congregate, and we can praise and mourn the hero police officers that did their job.
For a society to work, the laws must be followed. If we state that a group of citizens armed better than the police is allowed to do what they want despite the law - then society has failed.
|
Sanya12364 Posts
In our civil society, the side that fires the first shot loses. The side whose power of ideas is insufficient and must resort to vulgarities of arms may shed blood but will lose the war.
Only the justices of peace have the power to make the arrest and even then the arrested are given their time in court. And like in many incidents of police violence, using excessive force to cause bodily injury and death is enough to be a losing proposition.
The loodshed and loss of life are regrettable.
|
On August 18 2017 22:33 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:11 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 22:08 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:On August 18 2017 22:05 Danglars wrote:On August 18 2017 21:57 Aquanim wrote:On August 18 2017 21:43 Danglars wrote:
...
Antifa makes mistakes, Nazis don't. Well, I'll admit you can't get much clearer than that.
... Assuming you disagree with that statement, can you make your disagreement with it a bit more explicit? Actually, I was disagreeing with a statement he made. Perhaps you also have an opinion on that? Violence against Nazis is a permissible offense (aka not threatening to societal health) in an existing free and open society (I really should say previously free and open society). Groups like Antifa are different, because they only rise to the level of making mistakes. THEY ARE FUCKING NAZIS DANGLARS. Are you serious? You're advocating for the well-being and protection of fucking nazis to assemble. Are they guilty of a crime beyond having a despicable ideology? I wasn't aware they surrender their rights of citizenship because you like the caps lock and have an opinion on the matter. Between denying civil rights and this newfound passion for destroying antiquities, we are getting our own little version of Taliban-lite in this country. And I'm highly amused by these arguments that police do not have an obligation to risk their lives or the appeals to the fact that the Nazis had guns. Whom, exactly, did the Nazis shoot? I haven't had enough coffee yet to tackle these mental gymnastics.
Dont you think that's a bit of an overstatement of the situation? People want them taken off of their pedestal, not destroyed. For the life of me I cant understand the fascination with keeping these statues around, hell I dont even know why they were put up in the first place... Why would you commemorate in a positive way anyone who was a part of the group that literally tried to tear the country into two. Why would you celebrate anyone who fought in order to ensure that slavery would continue to be legal in any new states. Those statues aren't just pieces of history, they are celebrations of history. And I for one dont think
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
