EPTOn August 18 2017 08:27 xDaunt wrote:
Of course I did. It's a silly argument to make because it applies evenly across races now, whether it be poor white people that inherited nothing, poor Mexicans that are just now immigrating to the country, or poor black people who have lived in inner cities for generations. Wealth (or lack thereof) is the issue, not race.
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On August 18 2017 07:40 Slaughter wrote:
He also ignored the part where he mentioned that Black people were cut out of a lot of financial opportunities to build wealth and that effect is still felt today.
On August 18 2017 07:36 KwarK wrote:
lack of proper financial education because of what xDaunt?
On August 18 2017 07:32 xDaunt wrote:
Your example shows exactly why the problem itself is unrelated to race beyond mere correlation. Being black is not a cause of financial illiteracy. Lack of proper financial education is.
On August 18 2017 07:22 Kyadytim wrote:
Speaking of credit history - I have really good credit history, because my parents got me my first credit card at 16 or so. It wasn't really mine, though, it was joint in in my name and theirs. They had me use it regularly for minor but necessary purchases like refueling a car and then paid it off in full every month. They also helped me open an account with a federal credit union, which I was approved for because my parents were members. With an established good credit score from that first credit card, I could get a very good rate on a loan from that federal credit union, which general have better rates than normal banks.
Given that the Civil Rights Act was only 53 years ago, there's definitely people alive right now who do not have the financial opportunities I have, because their parents and grandparents were black and therefore didn't have the financial resources, established memberships, or financial knowledge learned from their parents that I and my parents were just handed. There's certainly white people alive with the same problem, but their problem can't be tracked back to their parents or grandparents being actively suppressed for being black.
I hope that sufficiently illustrates ways in which black people can suffer disadvantages due to race without anyone today being explicitly racist.
On August 18 2017 07:06 Falling wrote:
Well look, if it's the case that whites in equal financial situations are getting loans and minorities are not, that's wrong and should be covered under the Fair Housing Act? So hit 'em with the law. The grandfather part was about not being able to build up wealth in the past? Or was there something else- I don't think a grandfather's credit history has any relevance to a grandchild and so if that's being used and it isn't covered under Fair Housing Act, then it seems a new amendment to the law is needed.
On August 18 2017 06:50 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I think the part you're missing is that the mortgage applications are not being treated equally, and the dividing line tends towards race.
Which is where the racism (systemic or overt) comes in. It's generally not "he's black, so not mortgage". It's "here are the criteria we use, some of which is historical or location based, so if your grandfather was explicitly discriminated against, then you will be effected by the same".
On August 18 2017 06:45 Falling wrote:
If perception is irrelevant, why does it matter so much? Well, and wouldn't what the problem is matter on how you address it? Like, if the issue is like the redlining pre-1968 era you would address the problem in one way. But if the main issue is that it's hard to get a loan because you are poor and you need to get such a large loan because the prices are so high compared to what you make and the prices are so high because housing demand vastly outstrips supply (see the Vancouver market), wouldn't you address the problem in a very different way? The outcome might look the same- minorities are not getting a loan, but cause matters a lot. Just because someone is moved by compassion or a sense of justice to do something doesn't mean they'll actually do the right thing. It matters that you actually fix what you want to fix and so digging down and finding out what's actually wrong matters... a lot.
On August 18 2017 06:32 Plansix wrote:
I believe the perception is irrelevant. They have noticed something that impacts them negatively and it appears to be associated with race. Quibbling about if it is systematic racism or just the law of averages is counterproductive when the issue could just be addressed. In the process of addressing it, the real answer if it was racist or not will likely turn up anyways.
On August 18 2017 06:24 Falling wrote:
[quote]
Do you think perceptions can be wrong? Like, not just an alternative way of viewing things, but outright wrong?
I think it actually matters whether the problem exists because they are a minority vs because they are poor because if we misidentify the source of the problem, we will not come up with the right solution.
[quote]
Do you think perceptions can be wrong? Like, not just an alternative way of viewing things, but outright wrong?
I think it actually matters whether the problem exists because they are a minority vs because they are poor because if we misidentify the source of the problem, we will not come up with the right solution.
I believe the perception is irrelevant. They have noticed something that impacts them negatively and it appears to be associated with race. Quibbling about if it is systematic racism or just the law of averages is counterproductive when the issue could just be addressed. In the process of addressing it, the real answer if it was racist or not will likely turn up anyways.
If perception is irrelevant, why does it matter so much? Well, and wouldn't what the problem is matter on how you address it? Like, if the issue is like the redlining pre-1968 era you would address the problem in one way. But if the main issue is that it's hard to get a loan because you are poor and you need to get such a large loan because the prices are so high compared to what you make and the prices are so high because housing demand vastly outstrips supply (see the Vancouver market), wouldn't you address the problem in a very different way? The outcome might look the same- minorities are not getting a loan, but cause matters a lot. Just because someone is moved by compassion or a sense of justice to do something doesn't mean they'll actually do the right thing. It matters that you actually fix what you want to fix and so digging down and finding out what's actually wrong matters... a lot.
I think the part you're missing is that the mortgage applications are not being treated equally, and the dividing line tends towards race.
Which is where the racism (systemic or overt) comes in. It's generally not "he's black, so not mortgage". It's "here are the criteria we use, some of which is historical or location based, so if your grandfather was explicitly discriminated against, then you will be effected by the same".
Well look, if it's the case that whites in equal financial situations are getting loans and minorities are not, that's wrong and should be covered under the Fair Housing Act? So hit 'em with the law. The grandfather part was about not being able to build up wealth in the past? Or was there something else- I don't think a grandfather's credit history has any relevance to a grandchild and so if that's being used and it isn't covered under Fair Housing Act, then it seems a new amendment to the law is needed.
Speaking of credit history - I have really good credit history, because my parents got me my first credit card at 16 or so. It wasn't really mine, though, it was joint in in my name and theirs. They had me use it regularly for minor but necessary purchases like refueling a car and then paid it off in full every month. They also helped me open an account with a federal credit union, which I was approved for because my parents were members. With an established good credit score from that first credit card, I could get a very good rate on a loan from that federal credit union, which general have better rates than normal banks.
Given that the Civil Rights Act was only 53 years ago, there's definitely people alive right now who do not have the financial opportunities I have, because their parents and grandparents were black and therefore didn't have the financial resources, established memberships, or financial knowledge learned from their parents that I and my parents were just handed. There's certainly white people alive with the same problem, but their problem can't be tracked back to their parents or grandparents being actively suppressed for being black.
I hope that sufficiently illustrates ways in which black people can suffer disadvantages due to race without anyone today being explicitly racist.
Your example shows exactly why the problem itself is unrelated to race beyond mere correlation. Being black is not a cause of financial illiteracy. Lack of proper financial education is.
lack of proper financial education because of what xDaunt?
He also ignored the part where he mentioned that Black people were cut out of a lot of financial opportunities to build wealth and that effect is still felt today.
Of course I did. It's a silly argument to make because it applies evenly across races now, whether it be poor white people that inherited nothing, poor Mexicans that are just now immigrating to the country, or poor black people who have lived in inner cities for generations. Wealth (or lack thereof) is the issue, not race.
The foundation of my economic status was formed in the 1950s and 1960s by my grandparents. We are at least 50-100 years away before we can say race isn't a factor in economic inheritance.
