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On August 15 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2017 01:00 frazzle wrote:On August 15 2017 00:12 xDaunt wrote:And just to comment on the earlier discussion regarding what caused the emergence of the Alt Right, the big omission from the discuss is conservatism and the modern GOP. The whole reason why the Alt Right has any juice is because people like me recognize the catastrophic failure of conservatism to be a bulwark against the Left. Ask any conservative or person on the right what the lure to the Alt Right is, and the answer is always the same: "The Alt Right fights." This is why the term "cuckservative" has become so popular and has been so effective against mainstream conservatives. I get that conservatives like you feel this way, but the reality is that the Left in the States has become more and more marginalized every year for 40 some years. The left, politically, has lost grounds on all fronts. The Supreme Court is far to the right of where it was in the 60's. Democrats used to always control the House, now they need to wait most likely at least a decade to hope to get it back, if Trump helps them. States are mostly in the hands of Republicans. The only exception that comes to mind is gay rights. Beyond that the only scary thing out there I can think of for you guys is the SJW stuff, but the only reason you see any of the scary SJW stuff is because of the internet. It's not a real political threat to you. I guess maybe I forgot that some courts have determined that religious beliefs aren't grounds to refuse service to homosexuals. But let's face it, when that gets to the Supreme Court it will go your way. I don't really agree. What I understand from conservatism is that, rather than wanting things to stay the way they are or were, it wants to keep intact certain very specific power structure and hierarchies. A racial hierarchy in society, which is an inheritance from the slavery era, a gender hierarchy at home with a patriarchal view on family and women, and a financial hierarchy at work where the employee should have the right to obey, and where money gives you power over poorer people than you. From there, conservative can be more revolutionary than leftists, keeping in mind Lampedusa famous words: for everything to stay the same, everything has to change. See Banon. In that analysis, conservatives are luckily losing everywhere. The american society is still hugely racist but immensely less so than a few decades ago, and racism has become something shameful. Gender inequalities have melted and feminism has improved gigantically women's rights and place in society. The only real victory for conservatism has been the death of unions and the grotesque rise in finantial inequalities, that the left has been unable to challenge. I think the problem is that right wong folks have started to realize that the only thing that really interests the GOP is to cut aid for the poor and transfer wealth to the rich. And that the racial and sexual resentment the GOP leaders have been exploiting for decades is just a way to get the turkeys (poor white people) to vote again and again for Christmas (because the welfare state is all for those lazy black people). Paul Ryan doesn't give a crap about the so called culture war. What interests him is tax cuts for a class of billionaire that finance him. It looks like in the last decade, the GOP has lost control of the ugly creature it has unleashed, and that the racism, sexism and anti-intellectual, anti-elite resentment it has nurtured since Reagan has taken an ugly life of its own, in the form of the Tea Party first, the alt right later and finally in the grotesque presidency of Donald Trump. The con is basically over, but all the filth that they created in order to get there is very much alive. Yeah, fuck those "conservative" people. I hate them, too.
There isn't a lot to love. They have pretty much destroyed my grandfather's party with this culture war bullshit.
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It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards.
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On August 15 2017 01:41 Plansix wrote:
This will do nothing. He opened Pandora's box already. They already think Trump is their guy. He has to fire Bannon and all of his goons before anyone will take this seriously.
Nevertheless it's much better than saying nothing at all. Should be noted.
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On August 15 2017 00:02 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2017 23:48 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 14 2017 23:37 xDaunt wrote:On August 14 2017 21:01 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 14 2017 20:26 Nevuk wrote:
Due to this :
The people publishing that are fucking monsters. The alt-right showing its true ugly, hateful, face and its ties to neo nazis and white supremacists gives a bitter taste to the memory of the "basket of deplorable" incident. Deplorable is an understatement, those people are absolute pond scums. In fairness, there are a lot of people on the Alt-Right who hate Anglin and his ilk. The problem, however, is that they tolerated that branch of the Alt-Right for far too long instead of just cutting it off. As a general rule, Nazis don't do good things for branding. The questipn is whether or not there is a continuity between the alt right, white supremacists and neo nazis, in other words, if it's a just matter of degree, or if there is a radical, qualitative difference in terms of philosophy and motivation between the most radical far right supporters tgat marched in Charlotte and the "regular" alt right. To me it seems obvious that what we saw this week-end reveals something deep about what the alt-right really is about, but maybe I am wrong and regular alt-right folks have nothing to do with those fascists. What is your take on it? I ask very genuinely and I am interested to hear the other side on that one. Rebranding of neo-nazis to alt-right is, in the end a thin layer of polish on a tired old trope. It's the exact same movement, just with different words. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/21/alt-right-conference-richard-spencer-white-nationalistsIt's like how they rebranded "creationism" to "intelligent design". It's the same turd, just using more politically savvy wording.
I'm not sure if this video is from the same conference the guardian article talks about, but I guess it's fair to say that this is neo-nazism and nothing else
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On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards.
Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy.
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On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy.
Why would anyone ever be happy with Trump? I could understand a "thank you for not fucking things up worse than you could have" attitude, but not happy.
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Free market of ideas is alive and well on Facebook.
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On August 15 2017 01:47 Nebuchad wrote:Nevertheless it's much better than saying nothing at all. Should be noted.
Depends on what he actually ends up saying and how he says it.
The situation reminds me of this quote from Farscape:
Dominar Rygel XVI: Look, I-I know I can be selfish, but given a chance I can usually...
John Crichton: Do what? Do the right thing?
Dominar Rygel XVI: Yes.
John Crichton: Rygel, I figure the right thing starts at the beginning of the day, not after you've been caught.
It's cold comfort to know our President will eventually do the right thing if sufficiently shamed into it after having a multitude of opportunities to do it on his own.
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On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy.
He doesn't mean it. He is being forced to do it and the Nazis will say exactly that. That he is playing the game.
I'm old fashioned, I demand Nazis by condemned in under 24 hours.
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On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy.
Your initial response matters. When your initial response emboldens them, doing the right thing days later because the party basically forced you is blatantly hollow and shallow. I guarantee you none of those groups feel that Trump is not a friend to them even after this.
Edit: Perspective I am not a fan of Ted Cruz but he had a perfect response. If Trump had given the same response Ted Cruz did I would give him credit.
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On August 15 2017 01:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:
In that analysis, conservatives are luckily losing everywhere. The american society is still hugely racist but immensely less so than a few decades ago, and racism has become something shameful. Gender inequalities have melted and feminism has improved gigantically women's rights and place in society. The only real victory for conservatism has been the death of unions and the grotesque rise in finantial inequalities, that the left has been unable to challenge.
The ERA died and Roe has been eroded for decades now. Women are a bigger factor in the workplace due in great part to the fact wages have stagnated and having kids now means both parents work, possibly multiple jobs. Has there been progress and a change in the mindset of most Americans with regard to women in society? Absolutely, but I'm not sure a conservative can point to anything in women's rights over the last 40 years that can be chalked up as a loss.
My question to xDaunt is what losses have happened specifically? What failures did your politicians make that leads you and other Alt-Rightists to think they need to break out? What specific laws, or undoing of laws, is needed to make you feel that your politicians are doing a good job? I get that there is the standard malaise of "our society is decaying" that seems to hang over right/conservative types, but what things specifically can you point to that are real that are not going your way? Is it the national debt? Because yeah, Reagan failed you there pretty hard, as did Bush II, but we do have by far the world's largest military in return. Is it Obamacare? Your politicians have been near unanimous in opposition to it. Although, of course, they are the ones who came up with it. And while a tepid form of national insurance was perhaps a loss, meanwhile welfare programs have been on the chopping block since the 90's. I honestly would love to see a laundry list of actual real things that show that conservatives have had it bad in the last 40 years.
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Expecting the president to condemn Nazis immediately rather than making some dubious "there are two-sides" statement and then walking back a day later is not exactly a high bar.
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On August 15 2017 02:00 TheYango wrote:
Expecting the president to condemn Nazis immediately rather than making some dubious "there are two-sides" statement and then walking back a day later is not exactly a high bar.
Bare minimum standard to hold the job.
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United States42008 Posts
On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy.
It's not exactly unreasonable.
Terrorist attack a few days ago. On the day of the attack Trump refuses to condemn the terrorists who support him. After a few days of outrage Trump offers a weak condemnation.
Imagine this were a situation that involved you. Let's say someone hit your dog with their car and then spent a few days refusing to say sorry. If they then gave you a bullshit apology after everyone was calling them an asshole would you be happy with that apology?
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On August 15 2017 01:35 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:30 Biff The Understudy wrote:On August 15 2017 01:00 frazzle wrote:On August 15 2017 00:12 xDaunt wrote:And just to comment on the earlier discussion regarding what caused the emergence of the Alt Right, the big omission from the discuss is conservatism and the modern GOP. The whole reason why the Alt Right has any juice is because people like me recognize the catastrophic failure of conservatism to be a bulwark against the Left. Ask any conservative or person on the right what the lure to the Alt Right is, and the answer is always the same: "The Alt Right fights." This is why the term "cuckservative" has become so popular and has been so effective against mainstream conservatives. I get that conservatives like you feel this way, but the reality is that the Left in the States has become more and more marginalized every year for 40 some years. The left, politically, has lost grounds on all fronts. The Supreme Court is far to the right of where it was in the 60's. Democrats used to always control the House, now they need to wait most likely at least a decade to hope to get it back, if Trump helps them. States are mostly in the hands of Republicans. The only exception that comes to mind is gay rights. Beyond that the only scary thing out there I can think of for you guys is the SJW stuff, but the only reason you see any of the scary SJW stuff is because of the internet. It's not a real political threat to you. I guess maybe I forgot that some courts have determined that religious beliefs aren't grounds to refuse service to homosexuals. But let's face it, when that gets to the Supreme Court it will go your way. I don't really agree. What I understand from conservatism is that, rather than wanting things to stay the way they are or were, it wants to keep intact certain very specific power structure and hierarchies. A racial hierarchy in society, which is an inheritance from the slavery era, a gender hierarchy at home with a patriarchal view on family and women, and a financial hierarchy at work where the employee should have the right to obey, and where money gives you power over poorer people than you. From there, conservative can be more revolutionary than leftists, keeping in mind Lampedusa famous words: for everything to stay the same, everything has to change. See Banon. In that analysis, conservatives are luckily losing everywhere. The american society is still hugely racist but immensely less so than a few decades ago, and racism has become something shameful. Gender inequalities have melted and feminism has improved gigantically women's rights and place in society. The only real victory for conservatism has been the death of unions and the grotesque rise in finantial inequalities, that the left has been unable to challenge. I think the problem is that right wong folks have started to realize that the only thing that really interests the GOP is to cut aid for the poor and transfer wealth to the rich. And that the racial and sexual resentment the GOP leaders have been exploiting for decades is just a way to get the turkeys (poor white people) to vote again and again for Christmas (because the welfare state is all for those lazy black people). Paul Ryan doesn't give a crap about the so called culture war. What interests him is tax cuts for a class of billionaire that finance him. It looks like in the last decade, the GOP has lost control of the ugly creature it has unleashed, and that the racism, sexism and anti-intellectual, anti-elite resentment it has nurtured since Reagan has taken an ugly life of its own, in the form of the Tea Party first, the alt right later and finally in the grotesque presidency of Donald Trump. The con is basically over, but all the filth that they created in order to get there is very much alive. Yeah, fuck those "conservative" people. I hate them, too.
I don't have much love for american conservatism, but then again neither do you for the left. Sticking it to liberals seems to be a really big part of what motivates a lot of your positions. It's fair enough.
That being said, I believe that conservatives are totally necessary in a democracy. Power structure are meant to evolve, but it's a good thing there is a balance between people who want to undermine them and people who want to preserve them. In most european countries, there are perfectly reasonable and useful conservative parties, which whom I don't agree with but that are sometimes full of bright people whose ideas make sense and who contribute efficiently to their countries and the democratic debate.
The crisis of american conservatism comes in my views from the fact that the GOP has had a con agenda for a long time, and in order to achieve it has exploited the most disturbing and ugly aspects of the country's psyche.
I'm not sure what a sincere, reasonable american conservative can do. The alt right and the whole populistic movement is a monster, and the party is a bunch of hypocrite whose goal is to fuck everyone but a tiny group of filthy rich people.
You know better than me and I don't want to speak for you, but I think that it is where you stand; and I am sorry to say that I don't see, if you are as I think, a sincere conservative, who can represent you in this clusterfuckfest that has become the american right wing.
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White supremacists already got the message when he dragged his feet and blamed all sides. The strident language and alacrity with which he is willing to attack other people and groups is in obvious contrast to the way a simple condemnation of Nazis and KKK has be dragged kicking and screaming out of him days later. See his silence on that mosque bombing.
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On August 15 2017 02:25 CobaltBlu wrote:
White supremacists already got the message when he dragged his feet and blamed all sides. The alacrity and strident language he is willing to attack other people and groups is in obvious contrast to the way a simple condemnation of Nazis and KKK has be dragged out of him kicking and screaming days later. See his silence on that mosque bombing.
I quote myself from yesterday:
On August 13 2017 09:25 Plansix wrote:
The federal government doesn't need to support violent racist. It just needs remove all the resistance to them on the federal level.
Racists violence will happen unless it is resisted and opposed the goverment. The President's lack of condemnation only emboldens them. Every times this happens and he remains more people are at risk. The violence will only grow while he is in office, doing nothing to stop it.
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On August 15 2017 02:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy. It's not exactly unreasonable. Terrorist attack a few days ago. On the day of the attack Trump refuses to condemn the terrorists who support him. After a few days of outrage Trump offers a weak condemnation. Imagine this were a situation that involved you. Let's say someone hit your dog with their car and then spent a few days refusing to say sorry. If they then gave you a bullshit apology after everyone was calling them an asshole would you be happy with that apology?
more mental gymnastic? It's pathetic to what extent people on this forum go to legitimize their views.
On the day of the attack, Trump condemned all violence. Ivanka wrote on Twitter 'There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis.' Now Trump condemned the names you hate so much and it's still not enough. He could literally resign from POTUS and you guys would still not be happy.
Your example is non-sense. Trump didn't do the act. To post a more relevant one, it would be like someone hit your dog with their car and you getting mad because the mayor (insert X figure here) condemned all violence on animals and not your precise accident. Anyways, this is what it is for next four years - so better take some stress medications or you guys will not last that long.
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United States42008 Posts
On August 15 2017 02:31 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2017 02:05 KwarK wrote:On August 15 2017 01:47 SoSexy wrote:On August 15 2017 01:45 Adreme wrote:
It doesn't matter what he says now. His initial response showed where his heart lies and people now know that. His initial response was to actively try to avoid condemning white supremacists just like it was in the past and that speaks volumes more than whatever he does afterwards. Ridicolous. You guys are never, ever, ever happy. It's not exactly unreasonable. Terrorist attack a few days ago. On the day of the attack Trump refuses to condemn the terrorists who support him. After a few days of outrage Trump offers a weak condemnation. Imagine this were a situation that involved you. Let's say someone hit your dog with their car and then spent a few days refusing to say sorry. If they then gave you a bullshit apology after everyone was calling them an asshole would you be happy with that apology? more mental gymnastic? It's pathetic to what extent people on this forum go to legitimize their views. On the day of the attack, Trump condemned all violence. Ivanka wrote on Twitter 'There should be no place in society for racism, white supremacy and neo-nazis.' Now Trump condemned the names you hate so much and it's still not enough. He could literally resign from POTUS and you guys would still not be happy. T Your example is non-sense. Trump didn't do the act. To post a more relevant one, it would be like someone hit your dog with their car and you getting mad because the mayor (insert X figure here) condemned all violence on animals and not your precise accident. I'm out of this trash.
And yet the white supremacists were very definite about how Trump hadn't condemned them. Funny how that works out.
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EPT
